Court says police illegally taped nursing home sex

Originally posted by Yossarian
reply to post by -Reason-

 

Ok, so let's say you are in a deep sleep somewhere. There are cameras there but they are illegal. You get raped by a man. You had no knowledge of the assault until you were told by authorities who saw the tape. Should that man be arrested? Whose rights were violated? Whose rights take precedence?

Getting raped by a man and having your husband make love to you are two totally different things. There is no comparison. If I was in a coma and a man had sex with me, of course I would be highly irritate. My husband is a totally different thing, and would be welcome.

Originally posted by Yossarian
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

I'm 24 and I have quite a bit of life experience, obviously not as much as someone like yourself. I respect the fact you have direct experience of working with patients in nursing homes and Alzheimer patients but I don't see how your points are relevant to the post of mine which you quoted.

That it is wrong to have sex with someone who is "sick". Perhaps i misread your post, as you have several comma's in there.

Having sex with someone who is sick is not immoral. That was my only point.

The "ewww" factor bothers me. My kids usually will say "ewwww", but few adults that I have known. And that is why such things remain private.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
Such a sad story a man and his wife. A man that tried to take her by the hand in the way only the two of them understood and tried to bring her back to this world by making love to her.

[edit on 12-9-2008 by LoneGunMan]

I have been married for 14 years. I am an extremely loyal and devoted husband to my wife, and we are our only friends. This paragraph made me cry. I completely understand.

Originally posted by Yossarian
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

I'm 24 and I have quite a bit of life experience, obviously not as much as someone like yourself. I respect the fact you have direct experience of working with patients in nursing homes and Alzheimer patients but I don't see how your points are relevant to the post of mine which you quoted.

You are still young yet. I agree with bigfatfurrytexan. Yes, his reply was very relevant to your post. Listen to what he is saying. Extremely sick people with life threatening illnesses still have sex with their spouses with the approval of their doctors. Actually the doctors encourage it. Really, the husband having sex with his comatose wife should be no different than the ill patients having sex. It could have stimulated her and brought her a step back to conscience that no other way could have.

Ask yourself this. What would have been your reaction if she responded to her husband having sex with her while no other stimulant could affect her, and it was caught on that police tape?

What if his having sex with her actually revived her?

Then what would you say to his having sex with his wife? How would it differ with your response now? Why would it be different?

[edit on 12-9-2008 by LoneGunMan]

reply to post by Mystery_Lady


And what if he had given her vaginal (or anal) tearing? What if he had given her AIDS? What if he had ruptured her uterus?

Yes, even people in nursing homes are allowed to have sex, married or not, IF THEY ARE BOTH CONSENTING. No consent was implied by her being married to the man. Married sex is a privilege, not a right, which is why marital rape is illegal in all 50 states.

In placing your loved one in a nursing home, there are certain rules and regulations you agree to. If you felt you knew what was the best course of care for your loved one and could deliver it then you would not be putting them in the care of someone else. By delivering this woman's care over to someone else, this husband forfeited some of his ability to decide on her care. What if he decided that, since she really loved hot cocoa before she became comatose, that he should try to pour some hot cocoa down her throat to help her wake up and she then choked to death? What if she'd been younger and gotten pregnant?

This was rape, plain and simple. He did not have a legal right to have sex with her in her non-consenting state. He did not have the knowlege or training to make decisions concerning her physical body and acknowleged the fact by placing her in someone else's care.

I think a poor administrative decision was made by alerting the police (who often screw up investigations). As a nurse, I would have documented out the wazoo, notified administration and the doctor who SHOULD have approached the man and talked with him. If no agreement could be reached, then either ask the man to take his wife to another facility and/or notify an ombudsman (advocate for nursing home patients).

I feel sorry for this man who probably did have the best of intentions but his actions are not justified by his intentions. What if he decided to "end her suffering" and "mercy kill" her instead of having sex with her? His feelings do not change the fact that he exercised extremely poor judgment and committed a crime.

None of anyone's business? You make it someone else's business when you relinquish care of your loved one to a facility that has licenses they can lose by your foolish actions.

reply to post by whitewave


As usual, good reply.

Having discussed it with another HCP, I am now aware of the possibility of harm from the actual act, itself.

A star for you, and more.

I also agree with your solution. Why be afraid to have a frank talk with the guy. After all he is a client. Tell him he can't do that if he is and say way, and let him know that older people can have tissue injury or get infections from unprepared intimate contact. Then it's a win-win. Maybe they were fearful of litigation or covering up criminal activity. But your point remains. Thanks for your comments.

[edit on 12-9-2008 by LoneGunMan]

[edit on 12-9-2008 by LoneGunMan]

[edit on 12-9-2008 by LoneGunMan]

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
reply to post by whitewave

 

What is the deal with all of your what ifs?

[The deal with my what ifs was in response to mystery lady's what if's. Also, my what ifs were related to the topic at hand. Yours are not.]

What if when you went to nursing school they had actually taught you what the meaning of being a nurse is? It seems they did not.

[That was uncalled for and factually incorrect.]

Are you certain you are a feeling person and not some kind person with a chip on her shoulder?

[I admit that I occasionally carry a chip on my shoulder but it has come from years of being a feeling person, not an unfeeling one. I fail to see how my feelings one way or the other pertain to the FACTS of the case.]

I bet this man knew the score and may end up in prison for doing this. I bet he did not care because REAL love understands sacrifice and REAL love knows what his wife would have wanted.

[Real love should have some common sense.]

Your closest living relative, the one that has the most of you in them and knows you better than anyone is your sibling. Her sibling was on this mans side. She knew her sister just a little bit better than you know her.

[Not necessarily true. And I never claimed to know the man personally because it is irrelevant to the FACTS of the case. How do you know the sister wasn't sleeping with her brother-in-law? How do you know the 2 of them didn't conspire to kill off the comatose patient and split the money? It happens. It's one of the things you watch for in a nursing home.]

You should request a heart and soul from your higher power because It may have been left out.

[Now honestly, what was the point of that?]

Also, in response to your other posts that I didn't see because I was composing this: I'm so sorry for your loss. I can see now why you're so emotionally involved in this story. You would not ever be a potential juror if this case went to court because of your experience. I'm sorry you had to go through it and I'm glad your mother had a good son to help her in her time of sickness.

[edit on 12-9-2008 by LoneGunMan]

[edit on 12-9-2008 by whitewave]

=====
Mod Edit: fixed quotes, trimmed.




[edit on 12/9/2008 by Badge01]

reply to post by LoneGunMan


There are several ways to look at it. From the POV of the client, the man and the wife, the HCP has a duty.

This is to insure a safe occupancy and general care. If something is happening which threatens their ability to provide safe care, then they have a duty to act.

That means if the husband is applying some kind of care, be it medical, psychological or palliative, then staff needs to know. In this case he put their client at risk for injury, infection and STD risk. They had to act.

Now from the sister's POV, the guy meant no harm. True.

The HCP may not have done the right thing, and I said I agreed with WW in that regard.

So there's risk in an emergency, which you cite and there's long term care risk. I say they're different.

It's easy to Monday morning quarterback, but I think the upshot is what do they do now?

They need to have someone counsel the guy and let him know he can't continue closing the door, and they need to tell him it's for everyone's protection. I hope they don't kick him and his wife out of the facility or get a restraining order against him or anything punitive.

2 cents.

reply to post by kettlebellysmith


bravo, very well put. extremely difficult subject & not something you think of ona regular basis. but it did happen & it's super easy easy to say what you would do when your not in that situation. this is why people should not judge.

My only responds is EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWW!!!!!!!!



IF you think about it it's a BIG EEEEEEEEEWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!

UPDATE:

man charged with rape for having sex with comatose wife

This case touches on several emotionally charged issues as well as controversial legal issues. I will be interested to see how it all turns out as it will undoubtedly have ramifications in the health care industry.

There are other ways to indulge ones sexual urges than intercourse much less having sex with an unconscious person. there are entire stores dedicated to creative ways to pleasure oneself.

I love my husband, and I am, ahem, quite attracted to him, physical relations are a healthy and important part of our relationship, but if I knew he had sex with me while I was unconscious I would feel entirely violated and it would likely be a deal breaker.

Rather than sex he could have shown her physical affection, holding her, massaging her her muscles to keep them from atrophy, kissing her, all these things are physically intimate and would likely arouse many of the nerve centers and emotions that intercourse would while not violating her right to consent.

But regardless of this mans intentions it is a dangerous precedent if not brought to court. Even if done with love and care we can not allow even one person to have sex with an unconscious individual.

It brings about too many openings in the hard fought for rights of women to pursue and prosecute those who rape and violate us.

Speaking as a married man of 12 plus years. I can honestly say maybe this guy didnt know that his wife was in a coma. If anyone here has been married for any length of time I am sure you will agree it's hard to tell sometimes if your wife is comatose. About a year ago I installed mirrors in my bedroom not for the kink factor but to make sure she was breathing!

reply to post by gluetrap

I love my husband, and I am, ahem, quite attracted to him, physical relations are a healthy and important part of our relationship, but if I knew he had sex with me while I was unconscious I would feel entirely violated and it would likely be a deal breaker.

That's all well and good, but your opinion has no business in someone else's relationship much less as the basis of law. As I have stated previously, my own woman said that she would not mind, and certainly would not want the law involved in any way. So do you think that I should go to prison anyway if I were to do something like this? (And for the record, I would not, and certainly agree that it is weird, but again, that is just an opinion.)

There are other ways to indulge ones sexual urges than intercourse much less having sex with an unconscious person. there are entire stores dedicated to creative ways to pleasure oneself.

And women complain that men are insensitive. This guy didn't want to "get off" with a gizmo and a skin flik, he wanted to be close to the woman he loves. With an opinion like the one you've just displayed, it's no wonder there are so many men out there who use women as nothing more than a flesh-doll to fulfill their physical desires. After all, that's all it's about anyway right?

But regardless of this mans intentions it is a dangerous precedent if not brought to court.

It's a dangerous precedent that it is being brought to court. It will open the floodgates to allow the court into the privacy and the bedrooms of couples. It will allow them to decide what is and what is not "appropriate" in the bedroom. A very dangerous precedent indeed. Not to mention the issue of placement if surveillance equipment for any reason.

Even if done with love and care we can not allow even one person to have sex with an unconscious individual.

Why? Because you say it's wrong? This isn't some teenage girl passed out at a kegger here. This is a happily married couple who have been together for many years. What would you say if my girlfriend likes to get "choked-out" during sex?

It brings about too many openings in the hard fought for rights of women to pursue and prosecute those who rape and violate us.

Blah blah blah, nothing but fear-mongering. This has nothing to do with protecting the rights of women. It has everything to do with protecting the rights of privacy and the sanctity of marriage.






[edit on 9/14/0808 by jackinthebox]

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by fatdad
if my wife was in a coma i would try all means to wake her...also the police must have no murderers or other serious criminals to catch in that area...

Rape is not a serious crime now? So your wife would be fine with you having sex with her while she's sleeping or in a coma? that wouldn't bother her at all?

The responses in this thread disturb me much more than the story itself.

She did not consent.. for all we know he may have been a very good husband.. or they may not have had sex for the last ten years. Marriage does not make rape ethically okay.. even if raping your wife is still legal in some backwards american states..

It's comforting to know that nursing homes are using such precautions and I think cameras should be standard in all coma wards and where patients may be vulnerable.

[edit on 12-9-2008 by riley]

HAHAHAHAHA.

I'm disgusted by the women's lib garbage being displayed in this thread.

Questions like, "So your wife would be fine with you having sex with her while she's sleeping or in a coma?"

I can't speak for anyone else here, but my wife wouldn't care less - and I have no problem waking up with her on top of me going at it.

Seriously, how much of a prude do you have to be to get wound up over this issue?

How many guys here would be grossed out if they woke up from a 2 year coma with their wife (everlasting love of life, etc...) on top of them?

How many women?

If it was a women doing that to her husband, we'd hear comments like "Wow, awesome wife," "What a dedicated woman!" etc... but when it's the man, it's automatically rape.

[edit on 14-9-2008 by logician magician]