Economy in Recession? More Liberal Lies?

There is no such thing as national debt. China has hollow bonds. Russia has never paid the US back for billions$ in Grain shipped to them just after the Cold War when the Russian empire crumbled.

No one pays anyone back. The US has one of the least national debts in comparison to other countries per capita.

You can spend, spend and spend so long as you have surpluses coming in. Russia didn't when their empire crumbled. They had nothing coming back. They did borrow though and bigtime but never paid anyone back, including the US.

Often, Oil is used as payback. Saddam used it to pay back Russia for weapons. Africa is using it for China. Oil is just like currency.

reply to post by jamie83


Wow ... just .... wow. After saying the quality of the ATS user is going down because they dont source posts then you follow up with some massive rhetoric like income has gone up in the past 8 years, people have saved more in the past 8 years, and all the other Bush talking points you do what...nothing....you source nothing. The fact is tonight or this morning of Sept 1st you get my sheeple award. You make a good Bush parrot for you spout his talking points well with no proof. Sure you can spout his numbers he puts out but the facts are the facts amigo. And I even took your numbers as the truth and still showed you that even if they were "this"was the reason why. now run along and let the adults talk here.

reply to post by mybigunit


Mabe if we all move to the DENVER AIRPORT they will let us move down stairs when the sh#$* hits the fan !!!!!!!

reply to post by jetxnet


There is a difference between Aid and Debt.

Jamie, I think these Obama supporters are going a bit looney.

Now you have this thread: "Loser John McCain to President Hillary Clinton, the Horrible Truth about YOU"

At first you had it in that there "must be a God" or "proves there is a God" because of Gustav happening during the ROC.

Now that McCain is looking good with Gustav, they are saying that Republicans have caused the hurricane with "HAARP" to make McCain and the GOP look good.

If this is any indication how they will jump to rediculous conclusions if Obama should lose, there will be riots like none seen before screaming "racism" and "voting fraud" to name a few.

If you post any sources, then it is fabricated. If you don't, you'll get the "where's your source?". It's why sources for these types fall short because they try to discredit the source, though it is non-biased as in this situation.

They will somehow tell you Bush had the numbers changed - rediculous.

reply to post by jamie83

Im sorry you asumed that I am a liberal, the truth is that i dont get in to all that right left stuff, I just follow the money trail and dont beleive all that wall street stuff that they get from DC.Its just to risky.

reply to post by jetxnet


I hope this isnt pointed at me. As I told you earlier this is BOTH parties not just the Democrats. Its the Republicans also causing this problem. Its a 2 party dictatorship and the sooner the sheeple realize this the faster our nation can get back on the right track. But hey what do I know. Ill show you sources. unlike Jamie I have sources....coming in next post.

[edit on 1-9-2008 by mybigunit]

Originally posted by mybigunit

Wow ... just .... wow. After saying the quality of the ATS user is going down because they dont source posts then you follow up with some massive rhetoric like income has gone up in the past 8 years, people have saved more in the past 8 years, and all the other Bush talking points you do what...nothing....you source nothing.

Genius, I sourced all of the above and provided a link to the Federal Reserve site that has hundreds of graphs of every conceivable piece of economic data. It's not my fault that the brainwashed liberals are too stupid and/or lazy to actually research the data so they can see that their idols have been lying to them about the U.S. being in a recession.

You make a good Bush parrot for you spout his talking points well with no proof. Sure you can spout his numbers he puts out but the facts are the facts amigo.

You have not shown anybody anything except perhaps your level of immaturity, education (or lack thereof), and ignorance.

There is zero evidence that the U.S. is in a recession. Check any source you like and come back and post any data you can find to prove otherwise. That might be more constructive than posting your idiotic sheeple award that somehow in a twisted way makes you feel good about yourself.

Good luck with your research.

No, not directed at you. Of course both parties are corrupt, as in every country in the world. It will always be the case. I do believe, however, that the Democrats are more corrupt and less responsible. A dangerous combination. It's like giving a child an AK-47.

Rockpuck, Russia does owe the West and quite alot:

Foreign debt stands at about $150 billion, and Russia has little chance of meeting its repayment schedules. Moscow has defaulted on much of its foreign obligations. Domestic and foreign investments stand at 20 percent of their 1990 rates. Estimates of capital flight since 1987 run between $150 billion and $300 billion.3

This article was posted 1999. Imagine what they owe now!!

Source

Ok national saving Jamie claims we as a nation are saving more money....Ok




Household income?




It went down and this was as of 2005 while the Bush boom was still going on. This doesnt take 2006 and 2007 when the crap started to go downhill.

You need more what else should I show you up on hmm?

Oh wait tax revenues ...yes they have gone up a small amount. But lets see how much the national debt has gone up




More charts to come

[edit on 1-9-2008 by mybigunit]

reply to post by mybigunit
No its not ponted at you, you are right about it being both partys .Im sure they are all in bed together on this , they are all a bunch of NEW WORLD ORDER PUPPETS !!!!!!

MyBigUnit, I believe Jamie said we were still saving, whether it's less than before, we are still able to save nonetheless.

I saw those charts earlier from a Liberal blog. If any source should be discredited, it should be that one.

What does the National Debt have to do with America's GDP still increasing at 3%?

Can you disprove that the American economy has not grown, but rather, declined into a recession?? A recession would mean a negative growth rate. Do we have a negative growth rate?

[edit on 1-9-2008 by jetxnet]

Originally posted by jetxnet
Jamie, I think these Obama supporters are going a bit looney.

I've been noticing that too. I'm glad it's not just me.

Yes, it seems that in the last week the liberals have seen their bubble burst and are in the first stages of realizing Obama's campaign is imploding. First it was the selection of Biden. Then it was the entire convention that they had to stomach. I will promise you that any Obama supporter who was being honest with themselves thought "WTF are they doing putting Michelle Obama on prime time the first night?"

Seriously, they have to know that Michelle O. isn't going to be winning over any of the white middle-class voters they need in Ohio and Pennsylvania.

Then they had to stomach the Bill and Hillary shows on back to back nights, realizing the the Clintons were only going through the motions and didn't have their hearts in supporting Barry O.

Then they had to watch Obama give his speech Thursday, which was nice, but nowhere near the build-up that it was given. At the end, when Obama and Biden were on stage with their wives, the Obama fans had to be thinking how incredibly unstoppable Obama would have been if it were Obama and Bill and Hillary Clinton on stage.

Then they had to deal with McCain's coup of naming Gov. Palin the VP. This was truly brilliant no matter what any of the vapid MSM talking heads have to say.

And now they have to watch McCain act like the leader he is during the Gustav crisis while they watch their Democratic leaders look like total asses for making jokes about New Orleans getting hit by a CAT 5 hurricane.

So have some understanding and compassion for them. They have been going through a rough time. And don't stress November. Obama's stock is on the decline, while McCain's is on the rise. I can tell you that the life-long Democratic voters here in PA, even the most rabid Democratic party operatives, are almost to a person saying there is NO WAY they are voting for Obama.

And back on topic, notice how nobody even TRIED to refute the data that shows the economy is growing and that we're NOT in a recession? It's really getting to the point where I almost feel sorry for them.

Originally posted by jamie83

Income is growing. Production is growing. Savings is growing. Retail sales is growing. Tax revenues are growing. And this is in spite of oil prices doubling and gas costing almost $4 a gallon.

There is no conspiracy by the Federal Reserve to doctor the numbers. They are real. Every investment bank uses this data in their daily business.

But there is a real crisis in the confidence within the financial system. There were some serious burns among investment banks because of the housing crisis. Banks have to cut back now because investors will not buy these loans anymore. When loans get cut back, the economy gets forced into a debt payback mode which chokes off the money circulation to the economy.

The system needs to grow, in order to do so, loans have to be made. I can assure that if banks withhold loans for long periods of time, there will be economic failure.

While you are right that there is no recession and that liberals have been harping on economic troubles for the last 8 years for the purpose of political gain, there is danger in the economy. There must be a resolution to the banking crisis, they must start loaning again, or else there will be a global depression.

The Federal Reserve isn't a giant conspiracy, its a bunch of morons. The real problem is the greed in the financial industry. When a banker (greed) makes a loan to someone (greed) based on stated income because they know they can make a huge profit in commissions and in the repackaging and selling off the loan to some Chinese (greed) guy, and all of them think U.S. property will increase in price by 20% per month, you know there will be trouble and it will be international.

The economy goes beyond GDP and employment numbers.

Originally posted by jetxnet
MyBigUnit, I believe Jamie said we were still saving, whether it's less than before, we are still able to save nonetheless.

I saw those charts earlier from a Liberal blog. If any source should be discredited, it should be that one.

What does the National Debt have to do with a America's GDP still increasing at 3%?

Can you disprove that the American economy has not grown, but rather, declined into a recession?? A recession would mean a negative growth rate. Do we have a negative growth rate?

The national debt plays a vital role in present and future growth. With the national debt comes the interest only payment. in 2009 our interest payment is going to come in a just over 400 billion dollars. That is 20% of the 2 trillion in tax we had this year. Next year the revenues are supposed to be lower which means 30% of our tax dollars is going to pay bankers. The GDP is based on consumption. The fact is we have continued to consume and the only reason it is positive is because of the high prices that we pay. Add that with a 178 billion dollar stimulus wasteful spending package that is where you get your numbers. That is assuming the numbers are true. Keep in mind the government numbers still tell us that we are not facing inflation at all either even though we know this is not true. Liberal blog on the debt chart has nothing to do with it the facts are the facts. Both parties are big government. The only difference is Obama is going to make you pay for it up front and McCain is going to put it on the charge card and make us pay interest. Id rather pay up front myself if Im forced to be stuck with big government spending.

If you want real GDP numbers look at our trade deficit. That will give you a clue on how much we are actually producing. The fact is we arent producing much we import everything. Our GDP is based on consumption. The numbers can be fudged so damn easy but people who dont understand how the system works will not ever see this.

[edit on 1-9-2008 by mybigunit]

reply to post by wutone


Ok if there is no conspiracy at the fed then why are their inflationary numbers showing no inflation hmm? We see food going up, we see gas and energy going up, food, healthcare, everything is going up. M3 money supply is skyrocketing but yet there is no inflation according to the numbers why is this? The government wouldnt lie for political gain would they? You want to know why in Clintons regime we only paid $.90 for gas? Because he taxed his big government spending up front. He didnt print and borrow all sorts of money we didnt have. This is a Republican thing. Now it didnt used to be this way. This is a new thing the Republicans do so they can stay popular. Dont raise the taxes make the people pay the inflation tax and the big interest payments to the big bankers.

[edit on 1-9-2008 by mybigunit]

MybigUnit, while your explanation had some merit, it still avoids what you were asked, and that is simply to disprove America's current growth.

Higher Gas and Food - it is a GLOBAL problem. It's not just America, in fact most countries are paying more for Gas than the US - that goes for food too.

The US is still growing despite the high Gas prices and food cost relative to a Global energy crisis of supply and demand, which is now coming down again.

Originally posted by jetxnet
Jamie, I think these Obama supporters are going a bit looney.

It's because they get political on every problem in the world. They want to make any bad thing in the world the result of some Bush and McCain scheme.

In order for Obama to look like the messiah, his opponents have to look like the devil.

Too bad that both parties played the game to benefit off the housing bubble.

Obama supporters want to conceal the fact that many democrats were in on the game and want to make the global economic troubles purely the fault of Bush and McCain.

reply to post by jamie83

The only thing I will concede to you is that the democrats are utilizing economic woes to pander to the American Dream, trying to reinvigorate a sense of populism amongst the people to continue to accept the status quo which will always be governed foremost by the economy or at least to a large degree. The republicas do this in their own fashion, all the two parties do is serve to two broad ways of political thinking that has changed and been manipulated so much over history that its a convoluted mess.

The point is that the entire dichotomy is bunk. Sure certain combinations of interests make more sense on one side then the other, thats why its so crucial to have at least two parties to ensure a perfect oligarchy. The tone and general rhetoric of your posts however pander to this division, utilizing the way the status quo aligns certain interests against others (divide and conquer) to make a cheap political point.

In the end your comments show no knowledge of economics. All I see are 'charts' without any theory or knowledge to back them up. All you say is that X and Y and Z are growing, but what does that mean in the long term? How the hell does this explain the workings of the economy? Its not something you can look up in 5 minutes.

If you are as learned as you are haughty, please school me. Answer some of these questions because if you cant how can you claim the economy is healthy?

Oh and anyone can answer these 'control' questions, just ignore the tone if youre not jaime or whoever started this thread. I think if someone with a bit more knowledge of contemporary economics will be able to articulate it far better than I and it might be helpful for those browsing.

So here goes:

1.) What, specifically does the Federal Reserve do? How does it operate offensive and defensively, ie to help economy in bad times and also to ensure our prosperity in teh future? What does the federal reserve do to the integrity of a nation's currency in the long run, specifically?

2.)Did credit, finance and interest-yielding forms of capitalism dominate the world stage because of necessity, accident or a natural evolution in capitalism? Did it emerge as a solution to a previous contradiction in capitalism, certain barriers that prevented it from running smoothly? If so, how does finance capital, etc. get rid of these barriers and how might it in fact absorb them without resolving them?

3.) Credit certainly facilitates capitalism's expansion on a global scale, allowing for money to be moved quickly and easily and not to mention construction of the commons, parks public places, and the purchase of expensive things like homes or cars etc. But what are the effects of having a credit-based economy in the long term? What happens when a housing crisis like the one we just had occurs, how does it effect the credit system and thus the global economy?


I'd like you to explain all that and tie it into your incessant rhetoric of 'growth', what does 'growth' mean in an economy dominated by fictitious capital? Please back yourself up.



[edit on 1-9-2008 by kingmob68]

Originally posted by mybigunit
Ok national saving Jamie claims we as a nation are saving more money....Ok

Great graph! Just like I said, it shows SAVINGS is increasing. The savings rate, which your graph represents, is positive. While the RATE of savings may vary, it still shows we are saving more money.

Here is some more relevant date:


Fixed investments are still growing a briskly as ever.





Even with the decline in home prices factored in, the overall private investments are still growing very strong.




And as you pointed out, personal savings is GROWING, and is higher than when Clinton left office.




So once again, there is no recession. No matter how hard you try to find negative economic data, you will not be able to show we're in a recession because WE'RE NOT.