Why Ghosts are not Real

Are you a ghost?Would you know?

Ghosts think they are real. Certaiinly for those who have seen them and/or interacted with them, they seem quite convinced that they exist. Thier real nature still eludes explaination, however, I suspect that they are as real as the sea, sky and sun.

It does not matter if people believe in them or not. In fact, belief itself is bad. You can suspect, subscribe to, favor, strongly agree or disagree, but to believe or not believe something is a mind closure decision that destroys objectivity and is responsble for most of the serious problems on this planet that involve human beings.

Having an open mind is perhaps the most important quality one can have.

I don't believe in ghosts in the traditional sense. To begin with you have to break down what the general parlance is when we refer to a ghost:

What we general mean when we say "ghost" is the disincarnate 'soul' or 'spirit' of a deceased human being (or sometimes animal).

This means we are saying that a) people have a soul or spirit that is incarnate within their physical body during their life, and b) continues to exist outside seperate of the body, after death. Little or no consideration is given to the idea that a spirit or soul may exist outside or seperate of the body during physical life, or even before it. In addition to this, it usually given that the ghost remains sentient after death and has full memory of it's previous physical life and the personality it had during this time. - Which rejects the idea of reincarnation, or that a soul may exist seperately from it's physical self, and indeed may have several physical selves after and before it's current one, and the personalities it has during each lifetime are transient, and not part of the pre-existing disincarnate soul/spirit.

In this sense, the idea of a ghost is very much tied to religious ideas of life and death - how little to no consideration is given to a person's existence before birth, and that in fact, that person does not exist AT ALL before the moment of conception. It's almost unheard of for someone to rationalise their belief in a ghost as to it being a disincarnate entity that was not once a living human that died.

Indeed, many ideas of why ghosts exist exhibit some sort of religious overtone, with ideas of pergatory or limbo being the general theory as to their existence or sightings. That is, the spirit is not in "heaven" or "hell" because they have unfinished business in the physical plane, or had a traumatic life or death, leaving them with a desire to stay in the physical world, possibly to interact with it once again.

From this point of view we can see that our ideas of what a ghost is are almost entirely dependent on our culture and usually the dominant religious or spiritual teachings within it.

For this reason, I reject the idea of ghosts because I do not follow any organised religion, and reject entirely the binary heaven/hell theology.

If there were any such phenomena that people do mistake for disincarnate spirits of dead people, I would say it was some form of natural "holographic recording" that exists in reality, but is, as yet, unexplained by scientific study. That is it may be possible that previous events can be seen, possibly repeatedly, in the place that they happened - as some sort of ethereal memory within that physical location.

I reject the idea that these "recordings" are sentient or are the disincarnate souls of dead people and are merely some form of plasma or ether recording of an event that previously happened there - possibly involving sound, which may account for footsteps or voices heard.

This theory exists outside of any religious ideas of judgement, which are almost always given as the reason for a ghosts existence. By existing outside theological reasoning, this theory can be applied to any where in the world, or even anywhere in the Universe where life may exist.

reply to post by Soulstone

The title is a bit abrupt and my motives behind it is to grasp your attention as to why ghosts might not be real. If ghosts or spirits are real why aren't there reported sightings all over NYC after 9/11. Shouldn't the old WTC ruins be completely amassed with ghosts? Why is it there are places that are haunted in particular when there are death tolls in the thousands in certain places where there does not seem to be any residual or conscious hauntings? Shouldn't there be ghosts everywhere given the amount of people that have died throughout history on this planet? Why is it always humans that haunt and not animals? Don't they have the same biological functions. Some questions that need answers before I can begin to consider the possibility seriously......

Many believers were not believers before having witnessed a ghost, as was the case with myself.

My theory is that ghosts are simply organic electromagnetic energy.

When we die, the energy goes and eventually occupies another body but we have a choice when we do so.

Go to any hospital and ask any medical professional the definition of deceased.
In summary it means lack of electrical activity in the Brain.

I say look at the countless examples of people being pronounced dead and then coming back and telling about it.
How is that even possible if our soul wasn't able to leave and then later reenter it's body ?

Where did they go ? And how is it possible to be clinically dead, rolled off into a morgue and then return to living again hours later ?

Why aren't there tons of Ghosts at the WTC site ? You ask...

Perhaps there is no reason for them to stay there ?
If I was killed while at work. I certainly wouldn't return there either. I don't think that anyone loves their job that much !
And besides, That would be the last place I'd go back to !


But look at Gettysburg, PA and there is tons of activity there ? Maybe because they are still fighting the war in the afterlife ?

If you look at the soul as electrical energy then it opens a scientific realm of plausibility.

As well as the presence of ghosts being measured by electro-magnetic fields and "Electronic Voice Phenomenon" or EVP' which offer proof that something measurable does exists.

It would also explain the orb that I witnessed passing through a wall. Just as a radio/television/microwave signals also composed of electromagnetic energy are capable of doing ....

I feel that it's all evolutionary and as we understand more about science and our own physiology we will be able to better understand and explain this concept.

Remember, that 100 years ago your computer would have been considered technically impossible and unbelievable as well.

Originally posted by woodwytch
reply to post by dave420

 

I totally disagree with this statement ...

'No-one who believes in ghosts does so rationally'.

I do !

But I agree with the other points you make. No-one should believe in ghosts unless they have firsthand experience and only then when all alternative possibilities have been ruled out.

Ghost most definately DO exist and I say that with full rationality.

But don't believe until you 'know' for yourself ! Woody

Same here. I have felt and seen ghosts on several occasions. About 12 years ago, I worked at a Native American jewelry store in the Southwest. We had two stores across the street from each other; the bigger one was usually manned by three people, whereas the smaller one could function with just one person.

I was keeping the small store one day; I didn't have any customers most of the day and the doors were closed because it was kind of chilly outside (or whatever you call chilly in AZ). I was cleaning the glass cases with Windex, and when I looked up, I saw this Native American-looking guy on the other side of the room, about six feet away from me, with his back to me, looking at the jewelry cases.

At first I thought someone had come in while I was distracted and I just hadn't noticed -- the guy looked as solid as you and me, not transparent or anything. I looked back down on my glass case, back up... and he was gone. Just like that. I walked over to where he had stood and the air was frigid there. The rest of the store was about 75 degrees.

I saw him again one week later; same thing, standing in the same spot, his back turned towards me, looking into a jewelry case. By then I already knew he was a ghost, so I just watched him, but as soon as I got distracted for a second, poof, he was gone.

Originally posted by dave420
reply to post by Lebowski achiever

 

Yes - if he absolutely believes it was a murder, that is irrational. It could have been staged. Or the person might not have died. Assuming it is a murder is irrational. Of course it's still possible it was a murder, which is why the cops should be involved, but to say it definitely was a murder is, as strange as it may seem to you, irrational.

And no, I didn't watch TV. However I did watch some TV on my computer, which I'm fairly sure happened, as I can repeat it ad infinitum on request to anyone who wishes to observe. I can do it in a controlled environment, with any scientific instrument you want measuring it. That is the difference

But maybe watching TV is not the correct example, because it's obviously something that YOU make happen. You switch on the TV, sit in front of it and watch it. What about things that happen without your participation -- the classic example: if you see a tree fall in the forest and decide to tell others about it, how do you prove you SAW it fall? How do you prove it hadn't already been on the ground when you got there? There are lots of things you cannot prove under laboratory conditions. Can you make the same tree fall again? You can make other trees fall and therefore establish that it's POSSIBLE you saw one fall, but you will never prove what YOU saw. Does that mean it didn't happen?

soul question? did you believe in Santa Clause, and or Jesus Christ?

now does your statement on you op not sound stupid?

You are a young soul who does not know who they are or where they are going. To not understand is to ask why. You ask why we believe there are ghosts and I ask why you believe there are not. Science does not have all the answers. Many cultures celebrate the dead. What evidence do you have to say there is no such thing. If you keep looking you might find you are wrong. If you are open then you will find the secret to life and death. Look hard at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself if this is it. And if you think it is then you must feel like an ant in an ant farm. wondering around looking for food. in one end and out the other. I feel sorry for ants. .....

Not even science has proven "ghosts" to be fake, nor(but has close close) proven as real. We do know energy does not cease to exist. You=energy.
I think the replies pretty much covered your answers, but I'd like to share a few views:

Animals are more receptive than most people are to the paranormal:


People:
Of course not everyone would see the "ghosts" from your questions, as not everyone can sense them esp. those who fully dismiss(oh it wasn't a ghost my mind is playing tricks on me)

Also, not everyone who dies, stays around to "haunt" a place...

The net has many resources for educating yourself.

reply to post by dave420


How does one measure/quantify the things discovered via your "Scientific Method?"

With their 5 senses.

Stop arguing for the sake of arguing.

If ghosts or spirits are real why aren't there reported sightings all over NYC after 9/11. Shouldn't the old WTC ruins be completely amassed with ghosts?
Not necessarily, ghost are actually pretty rare, spirits on the other hand...
but the problem with spirits is that they can go wherever they want, to say goodbye, looking for revenge, etc.
EDIT: Next time investigate before stating something, there are reports, lots of them.

Why is it there are places that are haunted in particular when there are death tolls in the thousands in certain places where there does not seem to be any residual or conscious hauntings?
See above, not every violent death person becomes a spirit, and a fairly small portion of the spirits actually haunt anyone else that their loved ones (to say goodbye, either in reams or awake).

Shouldn't there be ghosts everywhere given the amount of people that have died throughout history on this planet?
See above, spirits sooner or later move on, that why there aren't that many spirits, also, in past times people where aware of the existence of spirits and knew how to treat them, but now they are just considered fake, that why mst ghost are from people from the past two or three centuries.

Why is it always humans that haunt and not animals? Don't they have the same biological functions.
Same reason animals can't reason, nor discuss with you.

Originally posted by VelvetSplash
I don't believe in ghosts in the traditional sense. To begin with you have to break down what the general parlance is when we refer to a ghost:

What we general mean when we say "ghost" is the disincarnate 'soul' or 'spirit' of a deceased human being (or sometimes animal).

Lots here to digest....

this means we are saying that a) people have a soul or spirit that is incarnate within their physical body during their life, and b) continues to exist outside seperate of the body, after death. Little or no consideration is given to the idea that a spirit or soul may exist outside or seperate of the body during physical life, or even before it.

Yes. let's in turn look at the medical definition of death. Which is the lack of brain activity in the human body.

What is brain activity ?
Brain activity is measurable electrical energy in the form of brain waves.
We have instrumentation in Hospitals called EEG that measures and records the electrical activity of the brain and are used to determine the existence of brain activity or not.

Their exist many cases in which a person has been clinically pronounced as dead and later returns back to life.
Many of the people describe seeing their body and medical staff working to revive them for example.
This exemplifies a case in which the soul exists outside or separate of the body and returns bringing the body back to life.

In this sense, the idea of a ghost is very much tied to religious ideas of life and death - how little to no consideration is given to a person's existence before birth, and that in fact, that person does not exist AT ALL before the moment of conception. It's almost unheard of for someone to rationalise their belief in a ghost as to it being a disincarnate entity that was not once a living human that died.

How untrue.
There are countless instances of people being regressed and revealing how they died in their past lives.

One that comes to mind in particular is William Barnes who authored a book about his claims to have been the reincarnated designer of the HMS Titanic:

He when hypnotized speaks in an Irish brogue and has very specific and technical details pertaining to the construction of the Titanic as well as to why it sunk. That a layman landlubber New Mexican with no nautical experience would possibly have knowledge of.
.

I have been writing about reincarnation cases for over twenty years now, and believe me, I'm not easily impressed by those who claim to be famous people returned. But this case is different. From the moment I began to listen to the voice of Thomas Andrews speaking on the past-life regression tapes, I was absolutely spellbound. This case is so real, it sends chills up my spine. Not only does William Barnes have detailed knowledge of an Edwardian shipbuilder's techniques (which differ from those of today), he also gives a specific theory about the construction of Titanic that sheds new light on why she sank so quickly on that night to remember. If Barnes/Andrews is right, a major factor in the sinking of the great ship was her single hull construction, which vibrated like a huge bell when she hit the iceberg. Building ships with steel was a new technology back then, and the single-hull design used for wooden ships had not yet been revised to account for acoustical stress in metal. Hitting the iceberg apparently set Titanic ringing from bow to stern. The brittle steel used by the British in those days simply could not take the increased stress and cracked like glass. It wasn't one big gash in her side that sent Titanic to the bottom of the sea. It was lots of little cracks and holes all over, where rivets popped and weakened steel plates shattered. Amazingly, William Barnes knew this when he was still a small child -- long before expeditions to the wreck confirmed it! Thomas Andrews apparently knew it, too, and tried to incorporate a newer, better design for the hulls of the huge steel ships, but nobody listened...

This is only one example...there are many more.


www.pinenet.com...
www.amazon.com...

reply to post by dave420


I assure you that I am not trying to be rude or harsh or anything like that when I am posting this, but (according to me) I live in a very haunted house, and I'm sure that if you'd spent even ten minuits in here that you'd agree it was haunted, I know that it may not sound real to you, but I would like to tell you a bit about my house. So here goes, the house is about 100 years old, but it has been refurbished many times, I have lived there most of my life. Anyways, when I was about eight or nine, I started having really scary dreams, in which I was chased by some sort of black mass, I felt that it was pure evil. Anyway, the morning after these dreams, I woke up actually under my bed, I knew that I has actually got in the middle of my double bed, I was led to believe that something had actually dragged me out of bed, I was led to believe this because I had big bruises all up my arms, I knew that my parents wuldn't have done that, they were far to kind. I am sure that because I have no pictures of them (I did but my parents decided to get rid of them "why do you want pictures of horrible purple bruises") you will pass me of as a fake and a fraudster, but I was just trying to tell you why I believe in them, good or bad, I would be very happy to hear what you have to say on the subject.
regards
ask

Originally posted by
Look hard at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself if this is it. And if you think it is then you must feel like an ant in an ant farm. wondering around looking for food. in one end and out the other. I feel sorry for ants. .....

This right here is one of the reasons I'm so skeptical of ghosts. Some people seem so scared to be just "an ant in an ant farm", that I think they would delude themselves into believing just about anything to ease that fear (*cough* religion). Even if "ghosts" do exist, making the leap that they are human souls floating around, again to me just points to people wanting to believe there is something more. I'm not saying what I believe is fact, it just makes the most sense to me based on the available evidence.

reply to post by Soulstone


The subject of ghosts is actually really interesting when you get into it. At this current time, belief usually falls into several categories: people who believe ghosts are the spirits of deceased people and animals who roam about and interact with living people; people who believe that ghostly activity is caused by energies from the earth; people who believe that ghosts are past events, recorded into magnetic stonework like a cassette tape, and replayed when a certain stimulus is applied; people who believe ghosts are actually the manifested psychic abilities of the observer; and people who believe that it is all imagined or is a hoax. It's obvious there are a lot of hoaxes out there and a lot of people who take advantage of peoples' beliefs in ghosts for publicity and for money, but I know from personal experiences and from discussions with very trustworthy people that something is happening and something appears to interact with us. But, what it is, I don't know. It could even be a new life-form, sentient in its own right, living in a different band of atomic vibration (just a guess). Even by our current understanding, our perception is limited to a very narrow range of the electromagnetic spectrum and our ears can only pick up a certain band of frequency of sound, and both these perception apply to matter. One could theorize that ghosts are part of the so-called 'dark matter' that we have just discovered, and if so, the electromagnetic spectrum wouldn't apply. So, it's very difficult to say one way or another. Many paranormal investigators are looking to give us an answer, but they can only rely on our current technology and it's a possibility that 'ghosts' can't yet be measured physically. Pictures of orbs and EVP in white noise isn't evidence. It's all really complicated. I prefer to just keep an open mind to such things. The truth is: we'll all find out one day, when our time here is finished.

Originally posted by Soulstone
If ghosts or spirits are real why aren't there reported sightings all over NYC after 9/11. Shouldn't the old WTC ruins be completely amassed with ghosts?

Well, speaking personally, if I found myself in spirit form after dying in the WTC, my one and only inclination would be to get to my home and my family and stay there with them while they grieve. Then, if I had to go somewhere else, into another density or dimension or whatever you want to call it, I would. Last thing I'd want to do is hang around where I died traumatically. If I died at home or some place I loved, I would stay, yeah, but not at the WTC. Would you, Soulstone?

Originally posted by woodwytch
reply to post by dave420

 

I totally disagree with this statement ...

'No-one who believes in ghosts does so rationally'.

I do !

But I agree with the other points you make. No-one should believe in ghosts unless they have firsthand experience and only then when all alternative possibilities have been ruled out.

Ghost most definately DO exist and I say that with full rationality.

But don't believe until you 'know' for yourself ! Woody

I believe some ghosts are real, not because I have seen one, but because I trust people who have,
Vicky

Originally posted by palg2
reply to post by whatukno

 

I posted this excerpt in another post but it also seems to fit here. Not because I have an urge to fill pages with blather.

PS: I have, first hand experience with ghosts and other such phenomena.
That's why I believe! And no, I am not week minded. I tend to evaluate everything before I take a stance.

-- from the book "Everything You Ever Wanted to Know about Heaven", by Dr. Peter Kreeft (Ignatius Press, 1990).

"Without our action or invitation, the dead often do appear to the living. There is enormous evidence of 'ghosts' in all cultures .... We can distinguish three kinds of ghosts, I believe. First, the most familiar kind: the sad ones, the wispy ones. They seem to be working out some unfinished earthly business, or suffering some purgatorial purification until released from their earthly business. These ghosts would seem to be the ones who just barely made it to Purgatory, who feel little or no joy yet and who need to learn many painful lessons about their past life on earth."

"Second, there are malicious and deceptive spirits - and since they are_deceptive, they hardly ever appear malicious. These are probably the ones who respond to conjurings at seances. They probably come from Hell. Even the chance_of that happening should be sufficient to terrify away all temptations to necromancy."

"Third, there are bright, happy spirits of dead friends and family, especially spouses, who appear unbidden, at God's will, not ours, with messages of hope and love. They seem to come from Heaven. Unlike the purgatorial ghosts who come back primarily for their own sakes, these bright spirits come back for the sake of us the living, to tell us all is well. They are aped by evil spirits who say the same, who speak 'peace, peace, when there is no peace'. But the deception works only one way: the fake can deceive by appearing genuine, but the genuine never deceives by appearing fake. Heavenly spirits always convince us that they are genuinely good. Even the bright spirits appear ghostlike to us because a ghost of any type is one whose substance does not belong in or come from this world. In Heaven these spirits are not ghosts but real, solid and substantial because they are at home there: One can't be a ghost in one's own country."

"That there are all three kinds of ghosts is enormously likely. Even taking into account our penchant to deceive and be deceived, our credulity and fakery, there remain so many trustworthy accounts of all three types of ghosts - trustworthy by every ordinary empirical and psychological standard - that only a dogmatic prejudice against them could prevent us from believing they exist. As Chesterton says, 'We believe an old apple woman when she says she ate an apple; but when she says she saw a ghost, we say 'But she's only an old apple woman.' A most undemocratic and unscientific prejudice."

That's awesome and brilliant, Palg!
C S Lewis appeared to J B Phillips as a heavenly spirit...
V

Originally posted by Vicky32
I believe some ghosts are real, not because I have seen one, but because I trust people who have,
Vicky

Vicky when you have complete strangers saying they seen ghosts.......you think "yeah right".......but when your
own mother tells you she has seen the ghost of her great grand ma.....then it really makes you stop and think.

My mother has recounted the tale many times over some 30-40 years to me and my sister's children and her story has never deviated over the years.
According to my mother it was a clear sighting and the "ghost" actually spoke to her and her nanny (my mother was a young girl at the time)
She was seen on 2 occasions.

Over 20 years ago I had a very strange experience when studying in Coventry in the UK, the springs on my bed shook violently up and down on their own....... to this day I have no rational explanation to explain the event.

The original poster even though this thread is 3 years old poses some valid questions.....although I don't think ghosts if the do exist follow any particular pattern, if they did then they could be studied by science.

I don't think human technology is anywhere near the stage where "ghosts" can be tested in the lab.
TV programs like "Ghost Hunters" or here in the UK "Most Haunted" tend to give the impression that "Ghosts" can be summoned on command.......I don't believe that they can be.......a genuine ghost experience is VERY rare and you have to be in the right place at the right time to experience them.

We still don't know what is a ghost.......but I would venture to say that the phenomena is likely more genuine than say "Alien abduction".

This entire thread seems like an exercise in futility. Short of a full body apparition coming up to you and pulling your pants down in front of 17 witnesses and 5 cameras you aren't going to change your opinion. There is absolutely nothing anyone here can say or show you to make you believe. I think you'd be willing to admit that. So in order to test your beliefs you need to seek 1st hand experiences. And they are certainly out there to be had, you just have to look for them.