Why Ghosts are not Real

-Edit-

I criticized the condescending tone in some of the posts in this thread, but ended up sounding condescending myself, so I took it away.

I hope for a continually good thread!

[edit on 2-9-2008 by Bonestone]

reply to post by DrumJunkie


Now thats something to agree with. A good start to identifying this phenomenon would be to get the people who see things and give them an MRI, under multiple trials. This would be a great first step to figuring out why they see more and what mechanism in there brain is giving them this potential ability.

This will help get us answers and not more questions.

reply to post by iamcamouflage


The most important step would be to rule out any mundane explanation, thereby ensuring there is something paranormal going on. Otherwise it can just easily be explained away.

reply to post by dave420


I agree, but there are people who describe seeing some things that if accurate could not be explained away with mundane reasons. Also there are many people who claim to see these types of phenomenon on a regular basis. If they have some kind of mental ability(which most claim to have)that allows them to see phenomenon that most cannot, it would most likely show up on an MRI. But I'm sure if none showed up, they would claim that powers of this kind cannot be measured by scientific equipment.

I mean there are people who claim to see actual people or animals in apparition form, if its a hallucination, it will show up in an MRI and if its them using a part of their brain that allows them to see or sense phenomenon that most cannot that will as well show up on an MRI and if they are lying there will be no result. Obviously there is going to be problems attempting to recreate a situation where they will see something in an MRI. But that is a technicality that can be worked out.

It seems that most of these phenomenon are only truly revealed to people. Most photographs and video only show a blur or a light. All the recordings are muffled or unintelligible and most hear what they want. When people claim to hear a voice, most say it was as clear as it could be. So if these phenomenon are only truly exposing themselves clearly to people and some claim to see them regularly why not test to see if its their error in senses or are they using a new sense in an area of the brain that most do not use. If you cant find good evidence of anything in the testing of the field bring the subject into the lab. At least we could try to rule out whether or not its the location or the person that facilitates strange phenomenon.

[edit on 2-9-2008 by iamcamouflage]

Originally posted by dave420
reply to post by Tayesin

 

That is just your opinion, completely devoid of any substantiating evidence.

Sorry Dave this is not my opinion, or belief, or even hope.

It is what I know from my work and experiences in this life.

You don't have to believe me, in fact I would prefer you didn't.

Better to have experience for yourself than choosing to believe anything.

Be well

I don't believe that ghosts are the dead, but I do believe that ghosts exist. That is to say that people see things, there is something there, it just isn't the dead.

What about some kind of phase shift? Temporarily making visible an entity from another phase in ours? The ability to walk through walls, float, lack of communication, duration of sightings, all explained. I don't know the ins and outs of phase theory (if that's what it is called) but it does make sense.

They will be explained, maybe not any time soon, but they will. I can imagine all sorts of things throughout history have been subject to paranormal explanations, only to be revealed as end results of certain provable events.

The existence of ghosts as the dead would prove the existence of an afterlife, with many levels; not everyone becomes a ghost, where then do they go?

If ghosts were the dead, why then are the clothes and other items seen too? Aren't there stories of ships and land battles? Why would objects be in the afterlife? You die, there's an afterlife, you're still cognisant, you've achieved the ultimate in understanding but you can't do it unless you're wearing your clothes to conveniently date you should you appear in an old building that you used to frequent? Can't see it.

I think there is something, but it isn't the dead. In truth, I'd love to be wrong, the idea of an afterlife is rather appealing...

Originally posted by Sendran

If ghosts were the dead, why then are the clothes and other items seen too? Aren't there stories of ships and land battles? Why would objects be in the afterlife? You die, there's an afterlife, you're still cognisant, you've achieved the ultimate in understanding but you can't do it unless you're wearing your clothes to conveniently date you should you appear in an old building that you used to frequent? Can't see it.

I think there is something, but it isn't the dead. In truth, I'd love to be wrong, the idea of an afterlife is rather appealing...

Starred. That is an excellent post, my friend!

Originally posted by Soulstone
reply to post by nunya13

 

I don't know why you bring God into this as if to prove a point. I don't believe in God. I used to and then I grew up. And please don't quote the Bible as some type of historical account.

I wasn't using God to prove that ghosts exists. I was just trying to point out that society, IN GENERAL, is willing to classify those who believe in things like bigfoot, ghosts, aliens are cooks or say they don't exist because there is no proof. But if someone believes in God they are perfectly sane even though, IMO, proving God exists would be even harder than proving any of the others exist.

I was using accounts from the bible as an example because these characters (that many, many people believe to be historical figures, though I don't) are thought of as enlightened, holy people but they've seen God and angels and no one thinks twice about their sanity.

But just as you thought I assumed you believed in God, obviously you assumed the same about me (well, I don't believe in the bible version of God, nor do I believe the bible to be historical at all).

What gets me is that you assumed I believed these things, then laughed at me and even made a comment essentially saying that believing in God is immature. As if you must be mature because you don't believe in God? It's not exactly mature to mock people just because you don't believe the same thing.

This entire thread was posted trying to challenge people to provide some sort of substantial evidence that ghosts are real. Then you immediately told everyone what you don't count as evidence even though these are the only current methods we have given the limitations of our technology. So the only way you would believe ghosts are real is by providing evidence using technology we don't even have yet. By setting those unrealistic requirements this thread has been set up to fail from the beginning.

The fact remains and has been my point all along, that it is a heck of lot harder to prove something DOESN'T exist than to prove it does.


Many people have come up with an explanation about ghosts that makes sense to them. On the other hand, because these explanations aren't plausible others automatically don't believe in them. So, just because the explanation and the evidence is not adequate enough for you how can you logically say that they don't exist? (same goes for saying they do, of course)

Couldn't it be that there are things we don't understand yet and have had to come up with other ways to explain the unexplainable?

Maybe ghosts aren't the souls of the dead. Couldn't it be that they are some kind of leftover energy that manifests itself somehow?

People used to believe that Zeus was throwing lightning rods down to earth because they had absolutely no other way to explain what was happening. We now have been able to explain what lightning is and how it is created.

I'm not saying you HAVE to believe that ghosts are real. I'm just saying that you shouldn't automatically discount that they COULD possibly exist. That is what is meant by keeping your mind open. Keeping an open mind is NOT believing everything you are told. It is just keeping your mind open to the possibility that all things are possible.

For the record, I've never seen a ghost. I think it is just as much possible that they do exist as much as it is possible that they don't. I just don't want to automatically discount something because there's no proof or because I haven't seen it with my own eyes.



[edit on 2-9-2008 by nunya13]

reply to post by nunya13


But it's like saying keep an open mind that the Lochness Monster exists. Which doesn't make sense biologically. There isn't anymore proof of ghosts than there is of that. I think the existence of ghosts can be disproven simply because there are no neanderthal or dinosaur ghosts. Why do "ghosts" wear clothes that are outdated? Why are they the clothes the experiencer remembers seeing them in. Why do they wear clothes at all?

People see and believe what they want to. That's why.

I'm going to side with the other believers on this post. Although Soul makes a good argument why ghosts shouldn't exist, he still lacks the explanation for personal experience. On top of that there are other things you need to explain off, mediums and sensitives, and the existence of an afterlife. If you die, are you saying you just get put in the ground and that's the end of it all? If that were true why do people spend such extravagant sums of money to bury their loved ones? Why not just dig a hole and stick them in the ground? You've probably had an experience with spirits at some point in your life, everyone does. It's just that, being a skeptic, you refuse to believe that your experience was with a being who'd passed on... Instead, you blame the wind, or a lack of sleep, or alcohol, or recreational drug use, or just your mind playing tricks on you.
I enjoy arguing with skeptics... lol it's more fun than agreeing with people all the time. So for that, I thank you for giving me a chance to exercise my argumentive skills. Just understand this one, 'A skeptic is just a believer who is locked in a personal shell'.

Soul:

Unless you had to, but that would then lead to a rule set for this afterlife, eventually leading to an overseer or god. There are possible reasons for the mundane behaviour, that does not disprove ghosts as the dead, but I agree, it makes it much more unlikely. A boring afterlife? What would possible be the point in that?

[edit on 2-9-2008 by Sendran]

Originally posted by CrusaderOne
If you die, are you saying you just get put in the ground and that's the end of it all? If that were true why do people spend such extravagant sums of money to bury their loved ones? Why not just dig a hole and stick them in the ground?

Obviously out of love and respect for the person. You should honor them. Not treat them like garbage.

Soulstone, do think that ghosts exist at all, whether apparitions of the lost or distortions of the space time coninuum whatsit, or do you think people are having hallucinations?

Originally posted by Soulstone
I think the existence of ghosts can be disproven simply because there are no neanderthal or dinosaur ghosts. Why do "ghosts" wear clothes that are outdated? Why are they the clothes the experiencer remembers seeing them in. Why do they wear clothes at all?

The reason there are no ghosts of neanderthals and dinosaurs out there is simple, spirit energy wears out over time, like when you play your favorite music CD over and over again, after a while, the sound gets more and more unlistenable. There are documented cases from victorian times of people seeing Roman Legionaires marching through their homes, but now, that energy has been expended, and the ghosts have simply stopped appearing...

Ir's the same thing when it comes to seeing ghosts of people from Victorian ages, they wear period clothes because to them it's still 1799 even if a few hundred years have passed since thier deaths. I'm not making it up, as a believer I've taken a few trips to Gettysburg (about 1/2 hour from my home) and have seen ghosts of civil war soldiers running around the grounds at night.

We don't imagine spirits, and we don't just remember clothes, sometimes when a ghost manifests itself the clothes are the most memorable part of the experience a person may have had. And this applies to unexplained noises too, I'd stayed at my grandma's house overnight a few years ago and I still remember the jingling of her dog's licenses on his collar... The dog, Tippy, had died a week prior to that experience. And that was just the dog's way of letting me know he was still around to watch over the house. I don't hear the jingling anymore... This could be for 1 of 2 reasons, either the spirit energy has been used up, or Tippy has gone into the light.

reply to post by CrusaderOne


Why do they replay the battles? And why only for a brief time, with no beginning or end, just a fade in fade out. Wouldn't an actual replay, viewed through some kind of window to the past, a fluctuation in reality be another explaination, why must it be a spirit, or ghost?

Originally posted by SkepticalSteve
Here's a question for all you who believe in such silly things as ghosts. Why is it that when someones eye sight and part of the brain that perceives eye sight is damaged and completely dead the spiritual or spirit eyes don't start working? That part of the body is dead. What about when you have cancer of the nose and lose your sense of smell? Your smell is dead. Yet there is no spiritual body taking over the smelling. As my friend who is in pre-med says "When you die. Nothing happens!!"

Because what you see is only processed by the brain. Your not actually seeing with your eyes, you are seeing with your brain. Same goes for smell, taste, touch. These are physical things processed by a physical object. Your gathering information by different nerves and receptors in the body which is then sent to the brain to processed. If either end doesn't work you lose that sense.

For the sake of argument we'll say that souls are real. But they are also not physical and that is why they would not be able to process things of a physical nature.

When you die, nothing happens in the physical sense. But some people believe that there are things beyond the physical world.

I wish ghosts weren't real, but I do not have the luxury of denying this aspect of our reality.

I have seen, heard, and had experiences with paranormal, supernatural and ghostly phenomenon.

It is real, what it is exactly I do not know.

And NO, I am not Schizophrenic.

Originally posted by DJM8507
I have seen, heard, and had experiences with paranormal, supernatural and ghostly phenomenon.

It is real, what it is exactly I do not know.

Are you saying these experiences are definitely related to the dead or do you not know what they were?

Originally posted by Soulstone
reply to post by nunya13

 

But it's like saying keep an open mind that the Lochness Monster exists. Which doesn't make sense biologically. There isn't anymore proof of ghosts than there is of that. I think the existence of ghosts can be disproven simply because there are no neanderthal or dinosaur ghosts. Why do "ghosts" wear clothes that are outdated? Why are they the clothes the experiencer remembers seeing them in. Why do they wear clothes at all?

People see and believe what they want to. That's why.

Well, I'm sure you've seen the other posts answering your question about why you can't see neandrathal or dinosaur ghosts.

I personally don't believe that ghosts are souls of the dead that haven't gone onto wherever it is they are supposed to go. I believe they are really just echos of leftover energy. Like the other posts say, energy fades over time. If you're seeing an echo of a civil war battle they aren't going to be wearing bell bottoms and tie die shirts.

As far as lochness goes, yeah, it might not exist now, but it could have. When I say you can't prove things don't exist I guess I should have included the exceptions and one of those exceptions is that you can prove that something doesn't exist if it's very existence is self-contradictory (so i suppose if you say the existence of Lochness is biologically impossible then maybe it is. Though I'm not sure what you mean).

this is also like saying there is such a thing as a four sided triangle. We know there isn't because triangles are three sided. That's not to say that two dimensional objects with four sides don't exist.

This leads me to what I have said about trying to explain things in terms you understand.

Imagine you live your life and the only geometrical object you've seen is a triangle. Then one day you see a geometrical object with four sides. Naturally you're going to call it a four sided triangle. But that's just explaining it in terms you understand within your own experiences.

One day you come across someone and say, "I've seen a four sided triangle!" this person would turn to you and say, "Oh you mean you've seen a square." (Then of course that person would have to go into why it is called a square and not a four sided triangle.)

reply to post by Soulstone


if life and afterlife were explainable it would be pretty boring. the journeys for us to make discoveries & learn.

you cant dimiss anything is possible until you are actually in that state. you have many many years mate until you reach it and it seems nothing will sway your thoughts so until then, be open minded, get your MRI done on someone who's seen if that will ease your mind and move on. figuring out paranormal is exciting and shouldent be taken so seriously.

we have become human-doings instead of human-beings which is alittle sad. our lives are just so busy we dont stop and just BE. pondering over rights and wrongs takes way to much energy though asking questions and researching topics is opening your mind just that little further.