Michael Moore Dares to Ask: What's So Heroic About Being Shot Down While Bombing Innocent Civilians

EDIT : JCMac pretty much covered what i said here so if your in a rush feel free to skip this.

Originally posted by Night Watchman
What Michael Moore should be asking is, "why does anyone even care what I think?"

Well he knows people care as his books are selling and his movies getting watched.

I'm not surprised that this fat blob doesn't consider anyone heroic who isn't serving him pork chops. I am an Obama supporter but am now considering voting for McCain in the hopes that a McCain victory will cause Moore to suffer a massive heart attack

Ok, I'm not serious about that last part but you get my point.

Since when his exposing the corruption of those in power not heroic? Do you know what can happen to such people in societies that have not achieved the freedom Moore is attempting to protect?

Look, I happen to believe those who are willing to defend one's country are heroic.

So do i but should they not be employed to actually defend the country and not abused to fight against nations that never threatened the United States? What about this whole contradiction is so hard to understand?

They didn't make the policy. They don't get to choose the actions they take.

In fact they do but since they are attempting to make a career out of it ( they are after all making money; very different than defending your country for food/board) they are more similar to mercenaries. That doesn't mean they can't be hero's or don't love their country but just that they will mostly do what their told irrespective of who their ordered to fight.

They are simply doing their jobs and because they do, the citizens of their country can feel safe (except the paranoids who hide under the bed because they see govt conspiracies at every turn.

As George Orwell wrote:

Do you feel safer now that Iraq is a actual honest to go breeding ground for terrorism? Did you feel safer while Koreans, Vietnamese and many others were killed for trying to control their own destinies?

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because brave men stand ready to do violence on their behalf

In fact most Americans don't sleep soundly ( check the statistics) or enough despite the fact that they work such long hours and are pretty damn tired from it. Maybe we should ask why Americans don't sleep peaceably despite the fact that they are ostensibly so well protected with so many brave men doing their 'duties'?

It's easy to sit behind a keyboard and express our opinions. Most of us can feel safe in doing so.

In fact it's not easy to sit behind a keyboard and express well reasoned informed opinions and arguments as made abundantly clear by spending a day on internet forums or in discussion with 'regular' people. Sure people are for the most part suspicious and paranoid (Western religions all have devils and demons out to 'get you' ) so it's not that the average guy does not suspect that his being had but that he can't figure out who's responsible or how to deal with it.

We can thank those who serve to protect us for that.

Well that case can be made for many defense forces ( Japan, Germany, and a few other ) but it's not the case for the US or any other that have recently taken part in military action in breach of Geneva conventions and UN mandates. Hundreds of thousands of US troops have not served the US public, or themselves for that matter, by getting killed or wounded in Vietnam, Korea or 'OIF' and as for protection i am not sure how they best protected themselves ( they are after all American citizens) by getting in the line of fire of those who never threatened to attack the United States of America.

Stellar

[edit on 22-8-2008 by StellarX]

[edit on 22-8-2008 by StellarX]

As to the question of whether or not McCain is a good candidate... HELL NO. it'll be another bush/cheney scenario! the republicans messed this country up and the democrats are the only party strong enough to beat them for the position of President Elect.

A year ago or so, I said " If Clinton is not the next president of the United States, democracy no longer exists " .

I was deeply saddened when I herd she dropped out. In fact, I was depressed for about a week. The thought of either Mccain or Obama in office scares the # out of me. But, if that's what THEY want, that is what WE get!

We have to change this #... it's all getting out of hand. They cant treat us like this... enough is enough!

* I know this is a little off topic.. but the deeply disturbing thought of either of those assholes being in office has just hit me again I had to say something.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by Blaine91555
My response has nothing to do with who he attacked but everything to do with what a slime bucket Moore is. Even when he is right he is so disgusting I'd believe the opposite just to spite him.

...so, I'd guess the phrase "Deny Ignorance" isn't exactly up there on your family crest, then.

I see believing Moore as Embracing Ignorance. I see Moore Groupies as the definition of Ignorance.

Moore will get what he wants by his slimy politics. We are turning into a Soap Opera Society as evidenced by these attacks on both Obama and McCain. No substance, no real meaning, only mean spirited attacks without substance. Moore is the epitome of that.

reply to post by budski



Man I just have to say this...You have the most obnoxious avatar on this site. If you change the background from red it wouldn't be so bad, but everytime i try to read one of your posts, the video action draws my eyes back over again, sorta like watching a long tennis volley with the sun blinding me from behind.

I think you would get much more readership if you do that...please, please, i beg of you...Just do it!

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

 

It was a Liberal who started Vietnam to begin with.

Well the funding of the French were as i remember well underway by the mid 50's so you can check out the record or just blame Eisenhower or Truman if you insist on blaming a 'liberal ( not by civilized standards any ways) for creating that war from scratch.

Anyways, the question is retarded. He is asking is it ok to bomb heavily populated areas...

Well once we know that countries are truly democratic and that like 80% of people voted for war, in a referendum of sorts, it might in fact become 'OK' to bomb people for the sake of bombing people. As you can imagine there will be no aggressive wars if people were allowed to vote over it and that's very probably why we are not allowed to vote over such things.

The answer to which is only since the 1990's have we purposefully tried to not kill civilians. This strategy has not worked well, obviously.

Does the million odd Iraqi casualties thus point to gross incompetence or were they a million Iraqi terrorist? How do five year old hold guns or did they start using suicide children while i looked away?

McCain did what he was ordered to do, was shot down, survived being a POW and came back and made an astounding career.

And since when is being ordered to do something heroic when it's a war crime? Isn't the main defense of war criminals that they were just following orders and doesn't that just mean that only the losing sides criminals are prosecuted? McCain could have refused to bomb certain things as that has been within his rights ever since at least the second world war.

It is the American definition of heroism .. only since he began running for President has that come under fire.

That is the media illusion of heroism; true heroism would have been to have refused to bomb civilian targets and at worse going to jail for a year or two. People make choices all the time and if you can't choose not to be a war criminal that is very much your responsibility to ultimate stand in for.

A reason to vote for him? Probably not, unless he is like Bush and Kerry and didn't do what he said and his so called POW time was at a resort on a distant beach. I doubt that will happen though..

I watched a few interviews with him and it seems obvious to me that this guy never fully recovered from the abuses inflicted on him.I am fairly confident that his time in North Vietnam were no vacation and that lesser men would never have gotten as far as i in fact has. It is a common misconception that people we consider to be 'wrong'/'evil' or whatever negative thing we do must also have no virtues but this is obviously not the case.

Perhaps if there was a bit more commentary on what these candidates actually stand for, plan on doing, and how they are even different.. why .. people MIGHT not dread every 4th year so much.

But that would involve discussing the things average citizens wants and since that might lead to citizens having more of a say in government that's going to be avoided as best they can manage.

Honestly, our politics is enough to turn the most die hard democracy supporter into one who hates it.

I think there is a vast difference between hating democracy and coming to the realisation that it's not working as advertised. As polling data suggest Americans are by no means against democracy ( otherwise Bush and the gang would not have claimed to be liberating other countries to 'free' them and so forth) but at least fifty percent of the voters have decided that their vote wont change enough to make it worth their effort.

If people's wishes were being implemented i can assure you that the voting numbers would shoot up dramatically.

Stellar

Getting back to the topic, as I'm want to do, Michael Moore and a heated debate on ATS? Who would have thunk that?

I think the reason for this is that MM is just the best at what he does. He made watching docs. enjoyable. For those that don't despise his message. I was entertained and educated(using my BS filter) by 2 of his movies. 911 was said and done by minute 20, the rest was propaganda that wasted my time.

All that said, the questions are relevant. McCain is going to get millage from his military career? Any of it is then fair game.

Originally posted by Night Watchman
What Michael Moore should be asking is, "why does anyone even care what I think?"

I agree with you in really, who does give a hoot what Moore thinks? He complains and whines constantly and probably has never been thankful for a single thing he has. Yes there are many issues with our government and has a military member I am happy to let everyone complain about those issues, but I feel that Moore gets to personal. In his documentaries and interviews I feel that he puts all the blame for our governments mess ups on the American people. He is so hateful, and ungrateful for being able to have the opportunity to b!!@$ and complain like he does. Because if he was in somewhere like China, Russia, Korea, Africa (feel free to pick a country) something very bad would of happened to him by now. Well the point of this rant is to say that I wish he would just shut up and go eat some more pork chops!

reply to post by budski


Keep talking Mike. You're helping us out.........again!
I hope he attacks McCain everyday.

reply to post by StellarX

Well the funding of the French were as i remember well underway by the mid 50's so you can check out the record or just blame Eisenhower or Truman if you insist on blaming a 'liberal ( not by civilized standards any ways) for creating that war from scratch.

France's inept ability to control the situation has little to do with the US Invasion, which was ordered starting with military advisers and heating up from there by a "liberal" ..

Well once we know that countries are truly democratic and that like 80% of people voted for war, in a referendum of sorts, it might in fact become 'OK' to bomb people for the sake of bombing people. As you can imagine there will be no aggressive wars if people were allowed to vote over it and that's very probably why we are not allowed to vote over such things.

Your assuming the majority of people don't like war, or rather, see war as necessary? Not everyone is a Liberal. Besides, people are ignorant, easy to control... be glad you don't get to vote on wars because the people would approve and all the politician would have to say is "hey, you wanted it.."

Does the million odd Iraqi casualties thus point to gross incompetence or were they a million Iraqi terrorist? How do five year old hold guns or did they start using suicide children while i looked away?

Wow, a Million? .. I see what I am dealing with...

And since when is being ordered to do something heroic when it's a war crime? Isn't the main defense of war criminals that they were just following orders and doesn't that just mean that only the losing sides criminals are prosecuted? McCain could have refused to bomb certain things as that has been within his rights ever since at least the second world war.

Blame those who ordered the attacks, not the men who carried out the superior's commands. Through rationality, no, just because you follow an order does not make you accountable for the actions.

That is the media illusion of heroism; true heroism would have been to have refused to bomb civilian targets and at worse going to jail for a year or two. People make choices all the time and if you can't choose not to be a war criminal that is very much your responsibility to ultimate stand in for.

Usually deserters are considered cowards (and rightfully so) .. the ones that join the army for the paycheck and education, but when it comes to doing your job you run away. No, standing up to a superior is not "bravery" it's a treasonous act.

I watched a few interviews with him and it seems obvious to me that this guy never fully recovered from the abuses inflicted on him.I am fairly confident that his time in North Vietnam were no vacation and that lesser men would never have gotten as far as i in fact has. It is a common misconception that people we consider to be 'wrong'/'evil' or whatever negative thing we do must also have no virtues but this is obviously not the case.

Not sure I understood this, you are saying he lacks virtue?

But that would involve discussing the things average citizens wants and since that might lead to citizens having more of a say in government that's going to be avoided as best they can manage.

Since a young lad I watched the news and it was the same issues .. gays, military spending, social security, defense, religion all this BS ...

Not once in 22 years has a single major issue been presented much less resolved.. this is why we don't discuss the issues. I don't think they want to remind us they never solved the issues from the last 10 elections..

If people's wishes were being implemented i can assure you that the voting numbers would shoot up dramatically.

As long as Americans can live in their Bubble they will be content.. let the politicians do what they must so long as it doesn't effect them .. I don't think they care much about what type of government they have, as most don't understand the one they got.

Originally posted by Rockpuck

Perhaps if there was a bit more commentary on what these candidates actually stand for, plan on doing, and how they are even different.. why .. people MIGHT not dread every 4th year so much. Honestly, our politics is enough to turn the most die hard democracy supporter into one who hates it.

You know, in as much as we come to politics from opposite sides of the spectrum, I have to agree with you that our biggest problems stem from a lack of good candidates. We need good ideas, leadership and some honesty for a change. Instead, we get banana republic-style politicos whose first act is to line their pockets and those of their cronies...then they start looking for a little strange. Any good acts that filter down to the great unwashed are strictly incidental.

But even Kennedy, for all his faults, had folks believing in both their leaders and their country. Neither Canada nor the US can boast that right now.

Wow what a good thread, some good points brought up here, kinda makes you think twice about electing someone that already had experience slaughtering innocent people... jeeze I'd have to say both these candidates are getting worse by the day lol

Michael Moore is a leftist extremist I think his books and movies are a little too extreme. Not to say I am a pro-right winger but I prefer accurate and straight froward information instead of over opinionated people like Michael Moore. The problem is not what mission McCain was on or if John Carry got a purple heart. The 2004 election proved that being in Vietnam does not make you an electable president. The problem is the media is too extreme either they are extreme rightest or leftist and nothing in between there is never compromise. That same argument came up about John Kerry killing civilians. John McCain is no more than a sold out war hero who supports war profiteering and has a lust for war. The last thing this world needs is another war hungry president so the British, American and Israeli war contractors can get richer. Michael Moore bickering is just more mind distracting propaganda that only distracts us from pounding the real problem, the war contractors lust for billion dollar contracts a month while our service men only get paid 2,000 a month and probably die or get injured before the month ends. Nobody ever reveals the true problem. People like Michael Moore only add to the political illusion that is written on a 6th grade level.

Originally posted by budski
Michael Moore Dares to Ask: What's So Heroic About Being Shot Down While Bombing Innocent Civilians?

If only Michael Moore were around during the Revolutionary war. I can hear it now.

"What's so heroic about dumping tea in the Boston harbor and committing vandalism?"

What's so heroic about signing a paper declaring Independence? Do you realize how may innocent people died during the fighting?


So shut up and put another hot dog in your mouth Michael Moore. There are no good answers to stupid, shallow questions. This kind of logic only works in Hollywood's echo chamber. I hate to break it to him, but the group he's panding to is much less than 50% of the country.

So when McCain gets elected and the liberals are scratching their collective heads wondering what happens, will they then realize that they don't make up a majority of the country? I doubt it. Anyone who wants Obama to have a snowball's chance of getting elected need to tell Moore to put a cork in it. McCain's military history is Kryptonite. You can't touch it. Don't even bring it up. You can't win on that front.

reply to post by tezzajw


Tezza,
Please consider thinking before writing. Until the early 1970's we had a system called "the draft." We baby boomers had the choice of running away, dodging, or serving when our number came up. The dodgers and runners [O Canada] gave various reasons for resisting. All were very noble but it all boiled down to saving themselves from discipline, discomfort, and danger. Some had grad school to go to and couldn't be bothered finishing their Air National Guard service.
As to our assault troops put in harm's way by a vindictive president, I support them. George Bush is an incompetent twit who sent our guys and gals into an impossible situation. They are misused as occupiers and policemen who attract fire but they are doing their best in a bad situation. They are volunteers and would defend even ingrates like you with their lives. You aren't worth it but they would because they took an oath.
The people who think dictators and generalissimos will be dissuaded by reason and goodwill end up on the wrong side of the grass. We always protect those fools from their own delusions. Perhaps you are just young and foolish. Go to the Sudan and see how far reason and goodwill will get you. If you get out alive, you can then thank those who serve in the military of the greatest country on earth.

reply to post by intrepid


Spot on, intrepid!!

I was flamed, just yesterday, for pointing out that Alex Collier has gained a lot of weight, since he fell off the World's 'stage'....and has now 'returned' yes, that seems off topic....but 'hey'!! I ain't the most svelte man in the world, and it's happened as I've skidded into my 50's!! I happen to be about the same age as Mr. Collier....

BUT, this is about Michael Moore.....and I didn't look up HIS age, maybe someone will know. I'm thinking he's in his 50's......but it seems he's always had a weight problem.

What I'm trying to point out is, there are seeming to be some 'underhanded' comments about Mr. Moore, because he's fat. See, I got a complaint because I mentioned another person was much heavier, after six years.....as if I'm some sort of bigot. I went on to mention that I saw this same person use a small flashlight, to read his notes.....I need this same small fashlight just to read a menu, when I go to eat out!!!

I have gained weight, in the last three years, as I slipped into my early 50's, as I mentioned....not happy about it, especially (as a man) the hair goes, as the pounds come on.....BUT, I can take care of that.....and, I suspect, Mr. Moore has struggled with his weight.....but it's not really about weight, it's about what's between the ears, isn't it??

OK, last two paragraphs, all just to help me get to this point.....Mr. Moore is a pretty good filmmaker, in my opinion. He started out, on a shoestring budget, with the film 'Roger and Me'.....because it involved his home town, in Michigan.....and the devastation of General Motors' closing of a production plant there....in Flint, Michigan.

So....if Mr. Moore stepped out of bounds, with his early success.....then, please listen to the message, and please do not complain about the messenger.

Originally posted by Spock Shock
already had experience slaughtering innocent people

Funny, since when is striking a valid target (the power plant) considered "slaughtering innocent people"?

Michael Moore is the Anne Coulter of the left. They're both so ridiculous you can't help but suspect they're working for the other side.

reply to post by Distractions4Nothing


LOL!!!!! Distractions, that might just be the funniest thing I've seen, in a long time!

(let's just hope the 'Coultergeist' never learns how to make movies....because that would be bad, very bad....)