Why can't we require drug tests in order to draw welfare?

You sign on. The pay you cash. I think they may try some tracking to see if you're trying to get a job, but that's easy to get round.

Originally posted by redled
You sign on. The pay you cash. I think they may try some tracking to see if you're trying to get a job, but that's easy to get round.

Wow.

If I may, that's insane.

Originally posted by president

Originally posted by mopusvindictus
You just give it away that, you never made it in life, that your frustrated and angry, that your one step above welfare yourself, maybe you even have a home that you can barely afford, but only someone paycheck to paycheck sits and concerns themselves with what the poor are doing.

Bill gates gives Billions away to oher human beings, that's the mind set of success

Mindset?

With a billion dollars, that guy could give two thousand dollars to half of a million people and single handedly wipe out homelessness in this country.
Instead, he gives it to some, "organization" with three or four people paying for million dollar homes.
If he jumped on a bus and handed everybody on it a couple thousand dollars, those people would offer him prayers. Real prayers.

I understand your position though.
"Give them enough rope and they will hang themselves."
or in this case, "give them enough crack money and they will o.d."
cold.

I grew up in the system.
My parents were dirt poor, and as far as I can remember, they didn't even do any drugs. they were just lazy. and stupid. My mom had to ask me, when I was seven, how to spell things. And my dad would give you the shirt off his back if he saw that you were cold. I've seen him do it.
We lived in a dirt poor town in Ga. so as you can tell, I didn't learn too much.

As I grew older, my ignorance turned into anxiety and I made a ton of social and financial mistakes.

but I always worked (as a cattel I guess.) and now I am just one step above walefare myself. Even though that is not a real option for me.

Back to the thread, most people file a w-2 and a 1040 and never even notice their tax money being taken. They only notice the net.
But the self enployed landscapers, and computer programers, and nurses, that file a 1099, and send in a four thousand dollar check to the government every April 15th, definately notice.
And they would probably get a little pissed off if people started starving to death around them.

I think if the options were, smoke all of the dope you want and get no money, or lay off the dope and get money, a lot of the people, would lay off the dope. MONEY makes the world go around.

Restructuring the system would be expensive initially, but It should even out soon enough to make a positive difference.

[edit on 21-8-2008 by president]

But here is the point about why welfare is needed.

Your obvuiously not stupid, you are a step above welfare and anything can happen in your life now.

and if your parents didn't get it, you would have suffered.

You didn't ask to be born, maybe you got barely enough to ssurvive but you did and your here.

Be honest would anything they did change who your parents were? I know the answer already because I was poor too... it's no.

My parents weren't the welfare extreme but my dad never made much and mom mom died decades early because she was a smoker, a decade of infomercials didn't save her, doctors visits and the loss of money didn't stop her.

A person has to want to quit the vast majority of people with impulse control problems will have them until they get help

and there is always another way to get high

Thats why people do Meth lol and now totally F themselves up, because they can cook it and not risk captue with things like M that need transport and are hard to hide.

Keep testing people and they will start licking toads and huffing paint thinner and nailing down robitussin

it's a useless fight, the whole war on drugs , it just keeps getting worse and I have children to worry about.


It's all making the problem worse every year, now the stuff kids do... you never recover from as long as you live, it scares the hell out of me.

And why? because some old foggies had a major issue with M

It's insane already

As far as Bil gates directly giving people money

I saw a 20/20 special once

Over have of all lottery winners died or went to prison, another 1/4 just went broke and ended up on

Welfare

A fool and his money are soon parted.

I would never advocate giving welfare recipients more than they needed to have an existance, nor would anyone else and that's why it's not very expensive, everyone knows what happens if you give a bunch of money to a person who can't control themselves

Feeding them and keeping them at home, albeit even stoned, not a big deal

Originally posted by mystiq
This is truly an issue of cost to society and how much cost it can afford to bear with regards to an enormous increase in crime. This is debated frequently in Canada, with regards to the service to drug addicted individuals, and various attempts to deal with a problem, which by the way is created amongst our children and youths until it become generational, to fund black op projects. The cia is the drug dealers of North America. Most of the crimes, ranging from thefts, assualts, break and enters, and abuse (by the way), and the children in foster care, stem from drugs. Take the rug out from under these people, who need real help, and insure more can't afford shelter, and the crime will sky rocket with enormous amounts of break and enters, theft that will raise the costs of food, and violent assaults of all kind, not to mention the enormous costs of prison. Many will just keep throwing themselves in jail. Assistance is a small drop in the bucket compared to our legal system, the cost of jail and the cost of crime. Its a tiny drop in the bucket (in fact it needs to be raised) in regards to the 40,000 dollar price tag per child per year in foster care. What needs to be done is an awknowledgment of those with this problem and continued monitoring and treatment solutions. This is a really big area where being heartless will cost far more in the end.

And I might add having had the misfortune to spend 20 days there about Ten years ago

Jail is tuition free crime school

Originally posted by mopusvindictus
reply to post by asmeone2

 

If M is legalized a big part of the issue with this goes away instantly...

I don't see it that way at all.

All legalizing M does is not make it illegal do smoke it.

It still does nothing to address the issue of people that are living off of our tax dollars, getting High and not doing anything to improve their situation.

I can not feel sorry for those that continue to live off of those that are working for a living.

Those that are abusing the system, those that are taking advantage, those that are doing nothing but hurting those that really need assistance.

Welfare was intended for those needing a hand up, not those looking for the next hand out.

I simply can't see how anybody can justify the expenditure of our tax dollars for Drugs or Alchohol.

There will be those that will fail multiple drug testing. Offer them rehab and probation. If they quit, fail or test positive again take further steps to get them straight. If that doesn't work, take them out of Government Housing, take away their checks, take away their children.

If we must continue to support them, they don't have to enjoy it, more than those of us helping to support them.

Originally posted by asmeone2
reply to post by willywagga

 

I don't understand. You berate me for my suggestion, which is intended to curb our culture's demanding for freebees, but then go on about how you can't see people askign for more and more? Please, pick a side.

"Freebees !!!" So you call going to some s**t hole slum school and living in a garbage strewn community, where the only food you can afford to buy is toxic filth, and if you happen to get sick you die pretty quick: that's a "Freebee", Boy I just can't wait to be an impoverished US citizen, it must feel really great to be 'high' all the time and not have a care in the world, they (the poor scum, that is) are to be envied or as some of you have suggested, sterilized, yeah. Listen why don't we just kill them all, that's what you really want isn't it. They don't deserve even the s****y support they get, squeeze them and squeeze them some more, it will at least make you feel a little better.
You know just because you feel like you're continually being f****d by someone else, it doesn't "always" have to be the poor schmuck living in the cardboard box who's doing the f*****g, take a look around boy, it's the system, and the system is ALL wrong. It's all very wrong.

Originally posted by mopusvindictus
For those people who say I am in position X at work or military and I have to drug test why shouldn't they...

The anser is simple, we are not all equal, some of us Choose more responsability

I guess by this logic those of us willing to take responsibility should not be upset that there are those that are willing to take the money we work for to give it to those that aren't willing to.

I recognize that their is a need for short term public assistance.

I have no problem with that.

I do have a problem with people that are just looking for their government to support them, and all of their vices with our money.

Originally posted by damurph

Originally posted by mopusvindictus
reply to post by asmeone2

 

If M is legalized a big part of the issue with this goes away instantly...

I don't see it that way at all.

All legalizing M does is not make it illegal do smoke it.

It still does nothing to address the issue of people that are living off of our tax dollars, getting High and not doing anything to improve their situation.

I can not feel sorry for those that continue to live off of those that are working for a living.

Those that are abusing the system, those that are taking advantage, those that are doing nothing but hurting those that really need assistance.

Welfare was intended for those needing a hand up, not those looking for the next hand out.

I simply can't see how anybody can justify the expenditure of our tax dollars for Drugs or Alchohol.

There will be those that will fail multiple drug testing. Offer them rehab and probation. If they quit, fail or test positive again take further steps to get them straight. If that doesn't work, take them out of Government Housing, take away their checks, take away their children.

If we must continue to support them, they don't have to enjoy it, more than those of us helping to support them.

Yeah and then what ??. So they fail and then what, shoot them. If you deny someone welfare what will they live on, fresh air ? Maybe they'll just have to steal the money from you, the drug they want just might be illegal (Many aren't). Does keeping many drugs illegal help society, no it does not, it helps make the drug dealers much richer and fills up the prison system which trains and instils crime.
Face it the "War on Drugs " is a sham and a huge failure. If all illegal drugs were made legal tomorrow and 'proper' health and education provisions were put in place, within a couple of years natural control would balance things out for many. The choices would be clearer for many, and society would change for the better.
The US model has failed in this respect where other countries have had much more success, particularly the Netherlands.

having read through the OP's consequent posts, I see his issues as reasonable, i.e. curbing the abuse of a public resource.

I agree to that.

but there must be some other way.

I just think of testing people's bodies as equivalent to a search of their home.

so i think you should have to have a warrant, just like in police situations.

in fact, if anyone should handle these things, it ought to be the police because the only reason to search anyone is if they have been charged with a crime.

search of a home is far less private than what's under your skin.

see what I mean about police state? even if you are on welfare, I think the constitution should be respected, even if the Housing Authority threw it out the window with their 'inspections', which do at least have a really good reason some times.

I apologize to the OP for any rudeness, but as always, I will be jerk to people who think that the poor are subhuman, or that a police state is OK.

reply to post by damurph


In Law school one of the first things they tell people is that

"Everyone is a Felon"

and in a complex legal system like ours that would very much be true.

We are all under the thumb enough already

In Phx here you can longer ride a bike home drunk, public transpo stops at midnight lol and dui is a felony

Is this not infact prohabition?

and it goes well beyond these things in the patriot act, cameras in traffic lights, we have microphones in the street lamps here they can listen to my damn conversations on my front porch...

There is a bill floating around to turn over our old spy satellites to local sheriffs departments

Enough is a G-d dmaned nuff already

who the hell on earth are you? What Taxes are you paying I have listed the numbers

None of you pay Anything beyond a few bucks for welfare you just people who are poor and miserable just like the people who are scared into giving away other peoples freedom

But everyone in here has been or is right now a felon and if they checked through all your taxes and habit sfrom jay walking to dope to things you have said... on and on they could lock you up, I guarantee it...

and everyones who thinks they are rightous's first response is "no not me"

and I call BS... no utter BS on this whole thread given that noone is innocent in life

I am not religous but Christ himself was the first to say we are all guuilty of sin and do not deny it least you make a Liar of your Lord


Americans pay very LOW taxes and it's cheepskate nonsense to try and act like Welfare would change anyone in here's financial out look

You couldn't go to a movie with what you save in 2 weeks off it, for most one weeks tax directed at welfare couldn't get you on a Bus

Just another excuse for peaople who have their own fauklts in life, in this cause being a failure to make enough money in tough times, looking for a scapegoat

This is how HOLOCOSTS happen

There is no one to blame for money problems in your life but yourselves, Not Jew bankers, not the government, not terrorists and not poor shlubs on welfare

There is no one to blame for drugs in this country but G-d, he grew the friggin coca leafs and M plants

and You don't sit there and curse G-d when a storm strikes or an earthquake happens, because he does these things for a reason

and what would that reason be?

To allow us to understand things like humility and compassion and human decency and show our better side and help each other out

A crisis is nothing but an opportunity to assert yourse;ves...

A few weeks back people were screaming about gas prices and the oil crisis... I took another job in bio diesel, I will make money... so is the economy bad or do people just like to Blame everyone else for their problems?

I see absolutely no difference between the people who say there shouldn't be welfare and the people who are on it, because they have one huge commonality, Bklame....the people on welfare are owed something in life, so are the people who in a Nation taxed among the least in western civilization of any wealthy nation sit and cry about it

It's the gas, it's the nwo, it's welfare, it's drugs, it's the terrorists


No it's you, you who want it easy just like they do, you all who don't earn enough money and made mistakes and want the government or homeless people or some, any group you can find to pin your problems on

" I work they don't" Give yourself a medal, then go do something innovative that actually makes you enough money that you don't have to slap anyone else around and claim they are the reason your poor

It's always some group of people, they have a religion or a way of life that is ruining yours...

BS

There was no Jew Banker conspiracy in germany, Homosexuals won't convert your kids, Blacks take less welfare than whites... it's a load of Lies all the blame games in human history, Welfare costs you next to Nothing, and until you learn to look in the mirror and fix your own crap, you are in effect the same as those on Welfare

reply to post by MegaTherion


Well lets be fair...

Once in prison they will be hooked up with major drug gangs, from this they willaquire, legal fees paid for when they are busted, other gang members and relatives to pee for them on future drug tests and entire support group to help aid in connections, transportation and supply

So really where, welfare cost 12,000 to taxpayers for the year after a couple of rounds at as much as 70,000 a pop in taxpayer money

they will arrive in your neighborhood with a profitable drug dealing sense of business proper knowledge of how to evade the police in the future and legal support to stay out of jail

which of course will earn them enough money to set up shop in your neighborhood where your children will think they are cool because they will have a nicer home and car than you and they can get your kids hooked on some smack of a much higher quality than when they were on welfare of course

and oh yeah, since none of their income is traceable and they now live next door to you, their costs on paper go up... and so will their welfare which they will still continue to collect!



[edit on 21-8-2008 by mopusvindictus]

reply to post by mopusvindictus


Mopus:

I envy your typing speed.

reply to post by asmeone2




Funny thing is:

I have two monitors going and i'm designing a website while I write in here.

or is that kind of sad?

I do make alot of typos this way though, unlike my software there is no autospell check in here

Originally posted by mopusvindictus
reply to post by asmeone2

 

Funny thing is:

I have two monitors going and i'm designing a website while I write in here.

or is that kind of sad?

I do make alot of typos this way though, unlike my software there is no autospell check in here

Nerd.

Dork.

I said that in my best Triumph voice.

Originally posted by blahdiblah
How about we figure out how to stop people from becoming drug addicts and getting on welfare in the first place? Instead of stopping people from getting welfare because their drug addicts. Although that would mean taking a good, long, hard look at ourselves and why society has failed these people.
[edit on 21-8-2008 by blahdiblah]

I agree wholeheartedly with the first part of your statement. It would be great if we could figure out how to teach these very important life lessons.

Unfortunately there are many elements of our society that make great efforts to teach dependancy on drugs and how to manipulate the sytems to support that dependancy.

Maybe it's about time we took a long look at ourselves, our schools and our society.

It is truelly sad that our society seems to vilify the honest hard working person and hold as heroes those that are getting over on others and their government.

reply to post by asmeone2


Haha

Yah I guess, Uber Nerd really, but I take solace in that by the time I hit college I was athletic enough to not look the part and somehow my eyes have yet to go bad on me in anyway

But yeah, sometimes late at night when I have taken off the Italian shirt and my hair comes unglued I sit down here in front of my computer and load up Sims 2 or some equivalent, the screen will go black for a second and I'll have jump out of my seat because for a moment I think some big Geek has just snuck in my room...

But then I realize it's just me

I personally feel that, although drug testing is a good idea, welfare reciepients should be required to have some sort of paying job, even if it is just part time minimum wage.

When I was 21 years old, as a single parent making only $7/hr (40 hrs week) and going to college 12 hrs a week, I went and applied for welfare and food stamps. Do you want to know what I was told? "You have a job? Oh well, you don't qualify. And you make too much money to receive food stamps. Come back if you 'lose' your job."
Yes, the lady actually insinuated that I quit my job!

[edit on 21/8/08 by quaple_pouge]

reply to post by asmeone2


Being on welfare is deffinatly not going to stop an addict from hitting "rock bottom"

Originally posted by eaganthorn
reply to post by asmeone2

 

Why would we care if someone on Welfare has a drink?

Does being on welfare make them less a person than the rest of the population?

Why should anyone care if another person has a drink?

I care because the money they are spending on recreational drinking or drugs was intended to feed, cloth, and house the less fortunate on a temporary basis.

I would think everyone would care, or at least should care.