NATO freezes Russian ties over Georgia

reply to post by Rockpuck



Thanks RockPuck. That was the best post I've seen in a while. Articulate and well written. You deserve some serious starrage for that.

My older brother is in town and his having lived in Germany (Frankfort) for 20+ years now gives him a much clearer view of the situation in Russia and Northern Europe and constantly reminds me that the MSM we have here in the States is deliberately leaving many, many issues out. Flatly ignoring facts. In essance, our whole news organization is in a "Spin Cycle".
He basically told me exactly the same thing about Russia's post-Soviet issues. He also mentioned the emmigrant Russians all over Europe who are making money, contributing to science, culture and the workforce no differently than any other ethnic makeup.
It's (Modern Russia) been slowly seeping back towards demonization in the US MSM. They did this during the Cold War to make the "threat" seem like it was coming from an evil source not a people of a country.

Meh, I ramble.
Looking forward to more intellegent posts such as RPs.

Cuhail

Off The Beaten Track

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Alrighty Cuhail, sorry for the off track .. now for my thoughts on the subject:

If that's "off track", then please keep going "off track", because that was an absolutely brilliant post.

I hope my fellow members can excuse the fact that this is basically a "me too" post, but when I see a contribution of such exquisite quality, I have no choice but to say so.

Thanks for sharing your excellent insights on ATS.

I view NATO as a relic from world war II.
It was setup soley to counter Russian Agression in its communist days, when it was trying to take over eastern europe.

When the cold war was in its peak, NATO played a large part in keeping Russia in check against the USA.

With only a handful of nukes, and breakaway states all over Eastern europe, Nato + the west could actually counter Russia

But we've seen a dramatic turn in what NATO and the west see as priority.

As soon as we entered Iraq, we tainted Nato.

Any state who stood side by side with America,was shown to be imperialistic, because we all knew the truths behind Iraq.

Europe has chilled, no ones prepared to stand with America at the moment, with their Economy and their government smelling worse than a bag of manure..

I think Russia has really emerged in this last month, Nato and the west cut their own legs off with Iraq and the economy, where as Russia sat silent building its resources and its government and just sitting put.

Do you think any small nation around russia is going to allow its self to be pushed into conflict by America?

I believe we're going to see alot more eastern european states start warming closer to Russia, America's influence is on its deathbed.

Originally posted by Cuhail

Found a related article.

NATO pulls its punches on penalty against Russia

BRUSSELS, Belgium – NATO pulled its punches against Russia on Tuesday, suspending formal contacts as punishment for the Georgia invasion but bucking U.S. pressure for more severe penalties.

The Russian Ambassador to NATO played down the impact of the emergency meeting of the Western alliance.

"The mountain gave birth to a mouse," said Dmitry Rogozin.

Although the allies said they would not convene any more meetings of the NATO-Russia Council until Russian troops withdraw from Georgia, they bowed to concerns from Europe — which depends heavily on Russia for energy — and stopped short of adopting specific long-term steps to punish Moscow for its actions.

NATO pulls its punches on penalty against Russia

Much the same.
Different words.
Same intent though.

This is what NATO does, though, isn't it. This is what it's for. My only concern is the "rating" they give certain situations. Shows bias, IMHO.


Cuhail

NATO relies on the natural gas and oil imports from Russia so,they are being rather pragmatic about this.

At this point I just wish the White House would "SHUT UP" If I hear one more time "They need to do this NOW" I am going to scream!

The more they make demands the more of a joke they are. What is the point of all this? Signing this....saying that.....has done no good a waste of all our time. If they have no plans in backing up what they demand then "SHUT - UP" It makes no difference what Nato, EU, UN say or do, it is all a bunch of hot air. At this point the Russians are going to do what they want to do no matter what ANYONE says or threatens. They have made it very clear they do not care what the world thinks they will continue no matter how many times The White says...NO SERIOUSLY...GET OUT NOW....I doubt they are shaking in their combat boots!

reply to post by manson_322


hehe manson is a muslim or something he is anti America all the way... but thats cool. The U.S. is making mistakes sure... Russia is making more of them... i cant beleive you support them. I dont have many foes at all but you are one of them

This whole situation stinks. I cant beleive your only pointing fingers at the U.S. and Nato i am awwed

Ok now that I read all the posts...

Yeah sorry I was sidetracked too with manson...

What I think about this is good. Russia has been acting child like... especially when they stole our humvees...

I've seen that the entire reason they are in georgia is because the U.S. is helping them out.

I think the U.S. needs to go into Russia and help them with something in return they are getting jealous

I agree with Manson on 1 thing. These wars are bankrupting the U.S. and its people. I have no doubt however that the U.S. will rise above the occassion

[edit on 20-8-2008 by rjmelter]

It does make me wonder what good an Organization like NATO can do if they say "You did wrong and we'll penalize you!" and the country in question can just reply with: "If you do that, we start cutting off supplies to others!"
Essentially, I see Russia just telling NATO to get stuffed. What's NATO really going to do about it? Go to war? Me thinks: NOT!

Cuhail

NATO shouldn't be taking sides on this, until there is a neutral investigation into the matter.

reply to post by Agit8dChop

I view NATO as a relic from world war II.
It was setup soley to counter Russian Agression in its communist days, when it was trying to take over eastern europe.

It is a relic, yes because it's purpose no longer exist.. aside from economic where to join NATO means much aid. However, NATO was needed all the way up until the fall of the Soviet Union.. it had nothing to do with WWII .. it had to do with the Cold War. And technically speaking if we are to create another Cold War, it's services may not yet be disposed.

When the cold war was in its peak, NATO played a large part in keeping Russia in check against the USA.

NATO it's self never had much power.. if Russia where to invade countries like Italy and Turkey would serve no purpose. It was a line in the sand where the US could station it's forces, it's build up and essentially a nice place to keep a very large tab open. In fact, though the Cold War has ended the US government is still set on the same principles of building "defenses" and stationary offenses in "NATO" territory. The countries themselves only hosts the bases, America picks up the tab.

As soon as we entered Iraq, we tainted Nato.

Iraq is not a NATO operation .. and I don't believe it was ever intended as such. NATO currently controls much of Afghanistan, but that took much persuasion .. NATO is essentially a peace keeping force, not meant for offensive operations. The war in Iraq may have tainted American relations in the World, but I am at a loss as to why it taints NATO.

Any state who stood side by side with America,was shown to be imperialistic, because we all knew the truths behind Iraq.

If anything, the states are shown to be taken advantage of.. not that this thread has anything to do with the War in Iraq.

Europe has chilled, no ones prepared to stand with America at the moment, with their Economy and their government smelling worse than a bag of manure..

America has no legitimate excuse to be hating Russia right now .. but Europe has absolutely no excuse either. Yet for some reason, most of Europe has been louder then America in condemning Russia. Albeit, you are in Australia, and perhaps to secluded from the World to get the big picture, the West is America and with out that "stinking" economy, our way of life is over. This explains why we are creating hostilities where there ought not be any.

I think Russia has really emerged in this last month, Nato and the west cut their own legs off with Iraq and the economy, where as Russia sat silent building its resources and its government and just sitting put.

Again the slight input of "Iraq" .. it has nothing to do with Russian relations. Russia's economy has exploded with the increasing price of fuels, however like all ME states it is their only major industry. Aside from that, poverty reigns in Russia.. we built them up to be sustainable, but the people them selves are not growing as fast as the government is. Not to mention, it was the West that built the Russian oil fields up.

Do you think any small nation around russia is going to allow its self to be pushed into conflict by America?

Absolutely.. the Czechs would, the Poles would, the Lithuanians would, the Romanians would, the Georgians did, and the Ukrainians would. This all goes back to my point that, if we can be friends with old Soviet Bloc states, why not Russia? The money we can spend investing in Bloc states is a great chance to create perceived wealth and development.. for every walmart type store constructed in Poland or Hungary we are creating consumers to drive the Western economy. Russia is doing this also, but we are still enemies because in the end we cannot live without one.

The fact that you think European countries will start "warming" to Russia honestly shows your insight to the current situation. I do believe America said "that's mean stop that" while France and Germany threatened sanctions and war.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by Agit8dChop

 

Do you think any small nation around russia is going to allow its self to be pushed into conflict by America?

Absolutely.. the Czechs would, the Poles would, the Lithuanians would, thze Romanians would, the Georgians did, and the Ukrainians would. This all goes back to my point that, if we can be friends with old Soviet Bloc states, why not Russia? The money we can spend investing in Bloc states is a great chance to create perceived wealth and development.. for every walmart type store constructed in Poland or Hungary we are creating consumers to drive the Western economy. Russia is doing this also, but we are still enemies because in the end we cannot live without one.

You are right - there is no "love" for Russia in the countries you mentioned (and a few others) - and in certain circumstances I doubt they would hesitate getting involved in a "conflict" against Russia. And it is not so much because of a "love" for "the west" as because of over 40 years of "Russian not-consensual love" they endured until not so long ago! In fact I would say that it is just because of that recent history - that even if Russia was sometimes right, these countries would not side with it! They have close to 0 trust and respect for the Russian politicians.

In fact the Romanian president declared recently that if the conflict in Transnistria was re-opened (somehow similar to Osetia) and the Russians would invade Moldova, Romania would intervene. And today, together with the Ukrainian president, they made a joined statement in support of Georgia (and Ukraine).

As I said before, it is mainly because of over 40 years of Russian abuse in Eastern Europe, that they (the Russians) have no allies there now - no matter if they are "right" or not!

reply to post by Nerdling
Good points , but ramping up regional anxiety by installing missiles in Poland can't help esp while Russia's in Georgia,Very bad timing If you ask me.



[edit on 20-8-2008 by all2human]

[edit on 20-8-2008 by all2human]