NATO freezes Russian ties over Georgia

reply to post by manson_322


Oh I see, the guy who died in a filthy hut by being shot in the back by his own countryman. How does he inspire you to wish death on american soldiers in Iraq? He looks like he is S. American not middle eastern. Where is the connection, I don't get it.

What do you think The US would do if one of our states tried to "breakaway"?

Mr Manson. I understand your zeal. Really, I do. But, in this manner, I wish you would start your own thread on it and it would really go great in the War on Terror forums.

Thanks.

Now, on topic.

I did some more surfing for relevant links.

Russia hits back at Nato warning -BBC

NATO ministers to review ties with Russia

Just an attempt to keep it all on topic. I'm eager to hear more knowledgable replies than Manson has put forth.

Cuhail

The way I see it, with NATO mulling plans of Ukraine and Georgia admission, Russia sees little to no value in ties with NATO. They had tried, apparently NATO politics didn't work for them.

reply to post by buddhasystem


Russian politics pushed Ukraine into NATO more then all the tricks and revolutions by Western forces. And the funny thing is that it was so transparent that the more Russia will press, the more Ukraine will move into other direction. Direct involvement in elections, gas prices blackmailing and finally Georgian war on the background of Crimean conflict - did more then all the games NATO played. Even with orange leadership, several years ago US missiles in Ukraine would bring huge crowds to Kiev to protest. Now both it and direct threat to Russian fleet - does nothing,majority of people are silent. Even in pro-Russian regions - no major protest.
Russian ignore of NATO is going to be the continuance of the same wicked blind policy that caused ideal regional partners of Russia to choose less desirable side. There are things in politics beside "in spite". Russian diplomacy is just "in spite". It will not bring the country anywhere. Russia wants to gain renewed superpower respect, but acts like a thug and only gains enemies on its borders. And US compare is not good. US did not loose respect in the first place.

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
reply to post by buddhasystem

 

Russian politics pushed Ukraine into NATO more then all the tricks and revolutions by Western forces.

Face it, the regime change in Ukraine was handiwork of the West:

Activists in each of these movements were funded and trained in tactics of political organization and nonviolent resistance by a coalition of Western pollsters and professional consultants funded by a range of Western government and non-government agencies. According to The Guardian, these include the U.S. State Department and USAID along with the National Democratic Institute for International Affairs, the International Republican Institute, the Bilderberg Group, the NGO Freedom House and George Soros's Open Society Institute.

This is from en.wikipedia.org...

In my book, this is an open encroachment on Russia by a concerted effort of infiltrators.

Russian diplomacy is just "in spite".

I'm not sure you appreciate the grave strategic position Russia was facing in the past few years. It's not "in spite", it's out of necessity.


[edit on 19-8-2008 by buddhasystem]

reply to post by buddhasystem


I have no doubt that West stood behind orange revolution. But it takes a really "ingenious" political approach to turn simple people that were in majority not hostile to Russia into people who in majority are. In couple of years. NATO played with oil prices to punish Ukraine? NATO has a lot of public figures commenting that Ukraine has no real history and is not a country? NATO has territorial conflict with Ukraine that is constantly reminded of?
Even if leaders and forces behind Ukrainian revolution got country into NATO, without those "in spite" games general public was going to remain positive to Russia. This is what important. Why burn bridges? Any serious mistake by orange guys - and pro-Russian leader could use it. Now it is all done. Sealed.
Russia is getting stronger. It wants according respect. Is it not obvious that there are going to be forces trying to play against it? If Russia is to be major player - it has to play the major game again. All it does - is trying to bully other countries into NOT going to other side without ensuring local elites their place and integrity of country. And other side is OFFERING things while promising elites stuff and ensuring integrity. So Russian leaders cry that West is against them while renewing their country strength in opposing West? It is what politics is and was all about. Nothing to do with right or wrong. Can you name me one ex-Soviet country to the West that relations with Russia improved in the last several years? NATO's fault?

Edit - missed couple of words.

[edit on 19-8-2008 by ZeroKnowledge]

I can only say that as Russia been a big supplier of oil in the area anything that will be done against Russia will be handle with extreme care because it can become a big mess for the countries that depend on the Russian oil.

So I will no put my hopes on anything major against Russia.

[edit on 19-8-2008 by marg6043]

reply to post by marg6043



So there it is, huh marg? I was waiting for someone to point out that this crisis will too eventually kick oil prices and gas prices up for someone.

Oil's not just a Mideast problem now, or, anymore for that matter.

Cuhail

reply to post by Cuhail


Exactly people tend to forget that Russia is also a big supplier of oil and natural gas.

This could set again another ripple of oil prices hikes.

Have you checked the oil prices lately, since the Georgia incident they are raising again.

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
I have no doubt that West stood behind orange revolution.

OK, we agree on that.

NATO has a lot of public figures commenting that Ukraine has no real history and is not a country?

Honestly, I'm not surprosed that NATO is not making such idiotic statements For my part, I've always ridiculed those members of Russian public who succumbed to this level of stupidity.

If Russia is to be major player - it has to play the major game again. All it does - is trying to bully other countries into NOT going to other side without ensuring local elites their place and integrity of country.

Look, in Ukraine, Russia has little to lose, really -- if they just sit on their hands, Ukraine might indeed continue to drift towards NATO acceptance and that's a strategic nightmare for Russia.

Can you name me one ex-Soviet country to the West that relations with Russia improved in the last several years? NATO's fault?

In fact, yes... If NATO owned up to verbal promises made to Russia a while ago, and did NOT expand eastward, Russia's stance may very well have been different.

Look, in Ukraine, Russia has little to lose, really -- if they just sit on their hands, Ukraine might indeed continue to drift towards NATO acceptance and that's a strategic nightmare for Russia.

Mm.

What do you think the Russians will do about the Ukraine/NATO situation, Buddha? And how soon?

Hey, want to stop feeding the troll and talk about how NATO freezes Russian ties over Georgia?

Thanks.

Originally posted by chips

Look, in Ukraine, Russia has little to lose, really -- if they just sit on their hands, Ukraine might indeed continue to drift towards NATO acceptance and that's a strategic nightmare for Russia.

Mm.

What do you think the Russians will do about the Ukraine/NATO situation, Buddha? And how soon?

Dear Chips, if I had a good idea about that, I'd be in a different place now, being paid a totally different amount of money

In reality, I suspect that Russia will align with US on Iran, while getting guarantee about Ukraine's non-entry to NATO.

I don't see Russia in military action against Ukraine... That wouldn't be too popular at home and indeed subvert whatever sympathies Moscow still has in Ukraine.

reply to post by buddhasystem


Cheers for the reply, Buddha.

What crazy, crazy times we're living in.

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


Actually Zero,

You got that wrong. Russia has told NATO that Ukraine has no real history and is not a country. Russia still views the Ukraine as part of Russia. It would be like Alaska acting like its own country, well, at least thats how the Russians feel.

Carry on

reply to post by crisko



Found this item and thought of you. Maybe this will help:

RUSSIA'S NON-STRATEGY FOR RELATIONS WITH UKRAINE

Tor Bukkvoll (Norwegian Defence Research Establishment) seeks to explain Russia's failure over the last decade to develop "a coordinated political strategy for the conduct of relations" with Ukraine. His explanation has three strands:

1. Russia's political establishment has not truly come to terms with the existence of an independent Ukraine.

Ukraine's independence from Russia is still widely regarded as an anomalous and temporary phenomenon. It may be felt that having an explicit policy on Ukraine means admitting that Ukraine is there to stay.

...more

There's much more covered at the actual link. I didn't want to quote the crappulance out of it.

Hope this helps.

Cuhail

reply to post by Cuhail


Wow, based on that article the Russian attitude towards the Ukraine is "seen and not heard". Putin's attitude is clearly indicates how little repect is shown.

Interesting.

reply to post by Cuhail


Alrighty Cuhail, sorry for the off track .. now for my thoughts on the subject:

Russia. When looking onto the World Stage from outside, as a Human yet thinking not as one of a certain Nationality, Ethnicity, Political ideologist.. just .. Human .. much of the current confrontations make no sense.

Especially Russia.

Russia collapses in the late 80's .. America goes into Soviet territory and "opens them" in the sense that under Soviet rule they where essentially stagnant. In fact.. it's the only time in Human History it has been observed that a country like Yugoslavia could literally be entirely unchanged from the date it entered it's union with the Soviets till it was "freed". Just bazaar. No development what so ever.

So all the old Soviet Bloc states are getting aid, development and are essentially being westernized.... but Russia has a problem with this, why?

Because America went into Russia, spent billions building it's economy up, billions fixing it's oil industry (yeah, we fixed their fields) and then a short 20 years later we are enemies? Enemies essentially with an entity we created?

But we get along with the old Soviet Bloc fine, why not Russia? Makes no sense..

Is it because there is a Russia / Western type vendetta that must be quenched before peace can be made? No .. go to London, Paris, Berlin, Dublin, the biggest Western cities and you will find plenty of Russians, poor Russians, especially rich Russians, enjoying western life. In fact, as far as "westernizing" goes, Russia is the fastest in the world.. as their economy picks up malls are being built, fast food shops and starbucks on every corner.. so .. it's not our "way of life" that is different....

Is it because we feel Putin is a dictator? No, of course not, because no one ever cares about dictators.. for crying out loud we supported Pol Pot did we not? Besides, Putin is not President, Russia is by all means a "Democracy" for lack of a better word (I always lack better words to describe any Democracy) .. The Russians vote, some want a monarchy, some want the old ways back .. but that doesn't matter because as far as a clash of interests go, it makes no difference.. We love the Sauds.. did any one vote for them? Well Bush loves them anyways..

Is it because of our past histories? Hell no, because quite honestly nothing ever happened.. coulda, maybe it shoulda, but it didn't.. Granted it is possible that, seeing as the Gov's of the World are still governed by the same old bastards that lived during the times of potential hostilities they hold a grudge.. want to carry on what their own ignorant fathers began .. who knows..

Oil? No, we built their oil industry.

Political Power? That would imply some kind of difference.. if there is no major political difference between us, there is no power struggle.. while Russia maintains regional power, it can only be expected as Russia is a very large economy, country and population. I can certainly understand strains between Russia, the West and Georgia because of it's very nature.. however when it comes down to it, technically Georgia DID start the war..

So why is the west so quick to beat on poor ol' Russia?

The current state of affairs in the international markets is dismal .. the World economy has last some 30% of it's value in the past 2 years.. substantial (although GDP figures will always be positive) anyways, during WWI we made a killing selling war supplies to Europe.. war ends, we enter a depression and 40% unemployment .. WWII comes along, we make a killing selling war provisions and supplying our own troops, as the way Capitalism in the World now works is that if companies profit, and governments go deficit then your economy is good. When your gov is not spending outrageously feeding the capitalist and allowing the "trickle" down of wealth, perceived wealth cannot sustain a perceived economy.. like waking from a dream.

So WWII ends, we have some brief wars, but all combined into the War on Communism, or the Cold War .. for Capitalism that constant spending on war ... even ones that never actually happen, is enough to sustain a good portion of the American Economy .. through the 50-90's we had some serious economic expansion but honestly without cold war spending it never could have happened .. at least not at the extent it did.. America produced more information, technology, telecommunications, inventions and so forth in this time period then all of Human History .. from landing on the moon to cell phones.. all of this was made possible in a race with Soviets in a battle of wills that no one quite remembers why it started to begin with.

So the Soviets fail, we "prevail" and then it's ... well .. not all roses and smiley faces after all .... we run to the aid of our "enemy" .. desperately try and get them up and running to .... well to continue being their enemy. Honestly, how long could the game last? The 1990's was our last great era of prosperity, Low inflation in relation to increasing wages caused a sense of wealthiness that otherwise should never have been .. the Bubble burst, and a short 10 years later all the Credit used to hold up that prosperity drops around our ankles and we fall flat in the mud of our own making ..

The war on terror didn't work because we where to built up .. it was .. to easy .. we needed a prolonged fight. We needed a Vietnam .. So we invade 2 countries, topple them, aim at a third, all the while building Russia up and slowly destroying what relations we have with them (Russia, who has a major balance surplus still gets aid from America....)

villainize Russia, spend more on the military-industrial Complex to ratchet up the economy but in the end, it won't matter.. as Capitalism and Democracies demand.. when times get tough .. go to war, cull a percentage of your population, and start from scratch!

Good or bad it doesn't matter.. the way we run our economy "buy now pay later" to give us a false sense of wealth cannot go on forever.. as inflation increased, people spent with their plastic.. when that was maxed they took out second mortgages, refinanced, and extended personal lines of credit..

Now credit rolls back, credit is harder to get, and people maxed out their own lines of credit. Along with ever increasing inflation .. people wonder how someone can default on a mortgage, I mean, why take out a mortgage you cannot afford? .. Or was it that they could, and once inflation which is improperly reported by the Fed over took them, spending power decreases caused defaults on major loans?

Yes, it all ties in with Russia, how we treat Russia, how we condition our citizens to villainize an entire people.. I have met several Russians, all nice people, great drinking friends.. but we need enemies, shadow enemies are not enough to keep us from falling into the ravine, we need another super power to pretend like we hate each other..

That's my view anyways.

[edit on 8/19/2008 by Rockpuck]

Originally posted by crisko
reply to post by ZeroKnowledge

 

Actually Zero,

You got that wrong. Russia has told NATO that Ukraine has no real history and is not a country. Russia still views the Ukraine as part of Russia. It would be like Alaska acting like its own country, well, at least thats how the Russians feel.

Carry on

Well, to be fair, many Alaskans do see Alaska as it's own country. And those in the lower 48 kind of forget it's up there.