U.S. Has Spent $100 Billion On Private Contractors Since Iraq Invasion

reply to post by zorgon


Very nicely done Zorgon. Although I don't always agree with you I do hand you this much. You do your research and you always try to remain fair. Great work on this stuff. I was going to post something similar in regards to Haliburton and the amount of the overall cut of the pie that they have received without competition.

Great work!

Originally posted by budski
reply to post by DarthAmerica

 

First off, I'd appreciate if you quoted me correctly.

Secondly - why does the VP still hold millions in stock options in a company who were the only ones invited to bid for a particular contract in Iraq, especially when he has been caught lying about said stock options not once, but twice.

Third, what's with the hostility?

Fourth, I notice you still haven't addressed the post by The Godfather of Conspiracy, in which the share prices of Halliburton were addressed?

And last of all, please try to be polite and stop being so hostile when I have done nothing to deserve it.
If all you can do is rant AT people, then I see no point in continuing a discussion with you.

There is no hostility between me and you. Just awe at how ignorant people are. I am a veteran of this war. I have personally given of myself, suffered and seen others suffer and die in this fight. So I do care about how people treat the memory of what we are doing/Did. I don't mind one bit a person disagreeing with the war. Just make sure that the reasons are just and verifiable. I don't agree with everything we have done here or anywhere else. But I can support those feelings with facts. There is nothing wrong with a business making money. That is what they are supposed to do. It's the reason they are created in the first place. There is nothing wrong with the VP owning stock in a successful business. Heck I buy KBR myself! I see how good they are at what they do and I would like to invest and profit from it myself. That's called capitalism. Nothing wrong with that.

If you want to discuss intelligent, by all means do so. Just make sure it's intelligent. If not, I'll point that out and counter with correct information.

Originally posted by dariousg
reply to post by zorgon

 

Very nicely done Zorgon. Although I don't always agree with you I do hand you this much. You do your research and you always try to remain fair. Great work on this stuff. I was going to post something similar in regards to Haliburton and the amount of the overall cut of the pie that they have received without competition.

Great work!

Except that Haliburton is not holding those contracts. KBR does. And KBR is a publicly owned company. Also, there is a lot of competition across the board except that you rarely see it in the media....OOPs.

There is nothing wrong with a business making money. That is what they are supposed to do. It's the reason they are created in the first place. There is nothing wrong with the VP owning stock in a successful business.

reply to post by DarthAmerica


I can't even begin to state how WRONG you are here my friend. First, I want to thank you personally for your work on behalf of my country. I was in during the first sand dance and thank God I didn't get stuck over there. Too much crap has happened to my friends physically and mentally since that conflict.

Okay, now to answer the statements made above.

Yes, that is the goal of a company. However, then why not open up the contracts to bids? Many of those organizations won the bids outright meaning that they got their top dollar asking price. You don't see a problem here? To the second part. Don't you think the term 'conflict of interest' plays a part here? You see, his stocks have SOARED due soley to this war. Period. That's a MAJOR conflict of interest. And add to the fact that they have won many big dollar bids without any competition and you get profiteering.

We won't even go into the lies that were shoved down everyone's throats to get people to back this war.

Before you try to throw the 'business experience' question at me I will answer it.

Studied business? Yes. BS in Business Management and an MBA.

Own a business? Yes, I was a co-owner in a business. I did the books and helped develop the marketing plan.

What I have seen so far in Iraq is a scam. Did you not read Zorgon's post about all of the BS that these contractors like Haliburton have tried to get away with? The expired food supplies and the bad water? Reply to each point in his post since you are so for these guys.

Now, does the fact that we are attacking the contractors mean that the little guys that work in the field are the bad ones? Nope. Not at all. They are mostly great people. They do what they are told and distribute what they are told to distribute. It's the people at the top that try to pawn off the bad food and water. The people giving it out don't have a clue.

What about the sex scams too? That was big news and should explain to you the psychology of these big wigs. They truly believe they are above everyone and the law. It's a joke and it's an even bigger shame that you support them wholeheartedly without obviously doing your own homework.

Like I said, I'm not talking about the people that you worked side by side with.

reply to post by DarthAmerica


So you see no conflict of interest in the VP holding millions in stock options and then that same company being the only one allowed to bid for the contract?

That's not business, that's croneyism, especially when the war was started under false pretences.

Let's also not forget that KBR is a former subsidiary of halliburton, and according to some, was "sold off" in order to ease pressure on cheney.

Do you see nothing wrong with the contracts for the new oil fields in kurdistan being awarded to friends of the bush family?

When I studied business as part of my first degree, we had a class called business ethics - it seems the people in the white house skipped that part of the course...



[edit on 12/8/2008 by budski]

reply to post by DarthAmerica

There is no hostility between me and you. Just awe at how ignorant people are.

You see, you just made the posters point. You say one thing but do another. You say there is no hostility and then you go on the attack. Sorry, but you are not really thinking through what you are writing. Try presenting it without stating how 'ignorant' people are. I like to think that working my rear off in the military and in gaining a graduate degree would have removed some of my 'ignorance'.

Originally posted by dariousg

There is nothing wrong with a business making money. That is what they are supposed to do. It's the reason they are created in the first place. There is nothing wrong with the VP owning stock in a successful business.

reply to post by DarthAmerica

 

I can't even begin to state how WRONG you are here my friend. First, I want to thank you personally for your work on behalf of my country. I was in during the first sand dance and thank God I didn't get stuck over there. Too much crap has happened to my friends physically and mentally since that conflict.

Yes, that is the goal of a company. However, then why not open up the contracts to bids? Many of those organizations won the bids outright meaning that they got their top dollar asking price. You don't see a problem here? To the second part. Don't you think the term 'conflict of interest' plays a part here? You see, his stocks have SOARED due soley to this war. Period. That's a MAJOR conflict of interest. And add to the fact that they have won many big dollar bids without any competition and you get profiteering.

We won't even go into the lies that were shoved down everyone's throats to get people to back this war.

Nothing I said is wrong. The customer, has the right to CHOOSE who gets his/her business. Halliburton was chosen for their ability to provide a service. When I bought my H2, I didn't have an open bid against Toyota and Nissan. I simply found a truck I could afford, one that met certain requirements, one I liked, and I bought. It's as simple as that.

Now do I think everything is done honest and transparent. NO. Contractors lie, cheat and steal just like soldiers and everyday citizens. Of course Presidents and VPs have favorites. So do you! So do I. Chances are, they will get the first look. Sometimes the only look. GM did when I bought. That's just the way it is, has been and will be. Otherwise, we would not be human.

No one cried like this when Halliburton did contracts in Operation Allied Force while President BILL CLINTON was in office through a NO-BID contract. No one whines when George Soros buys millions of Halliburton shares. Yet somehow all was calm and right before the "Bushie" came and corrupted everything and invented the art of lying to Americans. Come on, this is naive!

The only difference between then and now is the media is much more available to the common person and instant access to info makes things that are old seem new. Overall, the USG is working very hard to serve Americans and is doing a good job by any objective measure. Trust me, spend time outside America as you say you have and you must know what I'm talking about.

Originally posted by dariousg
reply to post by DarthAmerica

 

There is no hostility between me and you. Just awe at how ignorant people are.

You see, you just made the posters point. You say one thing but do another. You say there is no hostility and then you go on the attack. Sorry, but you are not really thinking through what you are writing. Try presenting it without stating how 'ignorant' people are. I like to think that working my rear off in the military and in gaining a graduate degree would have removed some of my 'ignorance'.

The word "ignorant" is not an attack. I'm ignorant about playing soccer for instance because I haven't taken the time to learn how. Does that represent an insult or mean I'm a bad person...NO. Just that I know little about soccer. The words I used should be interpreted by their English definitions as I was college educated and enjoy effective use of words.

Again, I challenge anybody to contradict the facts of my post. You can't. They are undeniable. What is happening here is posters are allowing their personal feelings toward me affect how they post. They aren't used to someone here calling them on inaccurate information. I'm the person who has just told a person the religion they believe in is not true. Because significant parts of their personalities are based on these false beliefs. They take such corrections as personal attacks against their essence.

Bottom line is this. Debate the facts, not the FEELINGS. You will rarely fail so long as you learn the facts.

Originally posted by budski
reply to post by DarthAmerica

 

So you see no conflict of interest in the VP holding millions in stock options and then that same company being the only one allowed to bid for the contract?

That's not business, that's croneyism, especially when the war was started under false pretences.

Let's also not forget that KBR is a former subsidiary of halliburton, and according to some, was "sold off" in order to ease pressure on cheney.

Do you see nothing wrong with the contracts for the new oil fields in kurdistan being awarded to friends of the bush family?

When I studied business as part of my first degree, we had a class called business ethics - it seems the people in the white house skipped that part of the course...



[edit on 12/8/2008 by budski]

No I don't see anything wrong. I think the VP is a very smart man whom I admire and respect. Halliburton did the same thing while President Clinton, another man I respect and admire, was in office during Operation Allied Force. Also, since a President is the next closest thing to God in the world. Why does it not surprise me that successful business maintain close relationships with them and their families. There is nothing "unethical" about any of this. Just human.

It's like this is being debated in some fantasy world where humans aren't self aware or driven by personal ambition of desire for happiness. It's also like most people here think all of this is new and unprecidented. Go back 10, 100 or even 1000 years and you will see it.

If you want to talk about conspiracies and government evil, talk about JFK's death or slavery. But trying to make the POTUS or VP into the devil because they are GOP or a DEM is childish.

Cause people have wised up and would rather take their chances in the ghettos than be used as pawns. So they hire these macho gloryboys who will be the same ones protecting Bush in South America. Got to shake them down, ya know.

[edit on 8/12/2008 by jpm1602]

Originally posted by DarthAmerica
Except that Haliburton is not holding those contracts. KBR does. And KBR is a publicly owned company. Also, there is a lot of competition across the board except that you rarely see it in the media....OOPs.

OOPS is right this post just proves you are full of it and only seek to instigate...

Halliburton and all of its subsidiaries, including KBR and DII Industries, will remain strong and healthy, with good growth prospects.

Where did I get this from?

Why gee HALIBURTON'S HOME PAGE
www.halliburton.com...

Imagine that?



So I ask you again how much ARE you getting paid for this?

reply to post by DarthAmerica


Ah, now we get to the real point of your argument - hero worship of cheney and shrub.

NewsFlash!!!
These "people" do wrong on a regular basis, they have nothing but contempt for the electorate, and are in this only to line their own pockets and the pockets of their friends.

I'm done here, and you're on ignore.

Bub bye



[edit on 12/8/2008 by budski]

Gentlemen. PLEASE don't allow these scumbags to put you at each other's throats. They are not worth it. The anger in misdirected. Cheneys halliburton is a money maker.

reply to post by DarthAmerica


I think this sums it all up perfectly for our self-appointed "Contracting Whizz" here...

Last year, KBR — formerly known as Kellogg, Brown & Root — separated from Halliburton and is now the Army's largest contractor, according to its Web site. It holds a multibillion-dollar contract to provide basic services including food and shelter for U.S. soldiers.

It agreed in 2006 to pay $8 million to settle six-year-old claims that it overcharged the Army for construction and other support services in the Balkans.

ap.google.com...

Separated in NAME ONLY. Like a bad divorce...

Guess who still owns 83% of KBR? HALLIBURTON.
www.bloomberg.com...

Guess who is managing KBR? Bill Utt and Jerry Winchester.
Who are they?

Former Managers for Halliburton and heavily invested in Halliburton. Bit of a conflict in interest no?
www.allbusiness.com...
www.forbes.com...

Hence KBR is simply an extension of Halliburton and it's in the best interests of it's CEOs and Senior Management to make sure Halliburton profits just as well as KBR because they've got plenty at stake in both companies.

Hence they are practically the same entity. Therefore, Halliburton IS the largest contractor in Iraq, unofficially/off the record/after dark/deep down inside.

And they are not cheap by any standard, the Army is being regularly overcharged by KBR, Halliburton and a host of other contracting companies by using inefficient and expensive subcontractors/subsidiaries who cost too much and fail to deliver, driving up costs even more:

Vice President Dick Cheney's former company may have overcharged the Army by $1.09 per gallon for nearly 57 million gallons of gasoline delivered to citizens in Iraq, senior defense officials say.

Auditors found potential overcharges of up to $61 million for gasoline

A jury has ordered Custer Battles, a military contractor, to pay $10 million for fraudulently billing the government on Iraq reconstruction contracts.
[url]http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0306/031006k1.htm" target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">www.cbsnews.com...[/urk]

A jury has ordered Custer Battles, a military contractor, to pay $10 million for fraudulently billing the government on Iraq reconstruction contracts.

[url]http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0306/031006k1.htm

For example, Halliburton subsidiary KBR hired a subcontractor to provide meals for troops in Kuwait: Army auditors found that dealing directly with the subcontractor could save the taxpayers $31 million a year. Translation: just for playing middleman, KBR added millions to the taxpayers' tab.

A Pentagon report found that Halliburton/KBR apparently tried to overcharge the taxpayers $108 million for importing fuel into Iraq. KBR asked the Pentagon to redact the report before publicizing it--and the Pentagon did.

bucknakedpolitics.typepad.com...

Some people do need to go at their own pace and like everything spoon-fed to them.
I guess as a contractor you get used to all those tax-payer funded meals, beds and luxuries the troops miss out on.

In 2006, General Electric (and 2 subcontractors) paid $11.5 million to settle a government suit alleging that GE had sold defective blades for the engines of U.S. military planes and helicopters.

In 2003, Northrop Grumman settled for $80 million government fraud suits alleging the following: 1) that a Northrop subsidiary had overcharged the government for research and design work, and 2) that Northrop knowingly sold the Navy unmanned aerial vehicles that had defective parts.

In 2000, Boeing settled a fraud suit for $54 million after allegedly putting defective gears in Chinook helicopters sold to the Army. One Chinook crashed during a 1988 mission in Honduras, killing five service men. Another crashed in Saudi Arabia during Operation Dessert Shield, injuring 2 people. In 2000, the Chinook fleet was partially grounded.

In 1998, the DoJ sued Hunt Building Corp. for $45 million after Hunt allegedly built uninhabitable housing at a South Dakota Air Force base. According to Texans for Public Justice, Hunt settled the case for $8.8 million.

In 1997, the Pratt & Whitney Group settled a government suit for $14.8 million after allegedly conspiring to funnel $10 million in U.S. military aid into an Israeli Air Force officer's personal slush fund.

bucknakedpolitics.typepad.com...

Still think Contractors are a cheap and effective way of supporting an Army?

Think again bud... I don't care who you worked for or who's hands you've shaken, you can't look past your own arrogance and that's a serious problem that impedes your rational thinking.

More resources on the widespread problem of Contractor Fraud & Corruption and how their making profits while soldiers are the ones suffering with properly functioning equipment and substandard services:

bucknakedpolitics.typepad.com...
www.nytimes.com...
www.vanityfair.com...
bucknakedpolitics.typepad.com...
www.pdfdownload.org...
bucknakedpolitics.typepad.com...
bucknakedpolitics.typepad.com...
bucknakedpolitics.typepad.com...

You still want to pretend Contractors are good, honest, "work-hard-for-a-living", Patriotic, A-Okay people then do so.
Just not on this thread alright...

[edit on 12/8/08 by The Godfather of Conspira]

Look into the Arab companies as well, they are exploiting it too. Those darn Arabs.

reply to post by deltaboy


Yeah those darn Arabs are overcharging us millions on meals for soldiers and they're providing us faulty helicopters and defective vehicles.
They're the ones who are really being asked to testify before Congress.

Riiight... you see what I wrote above?

Who now owns the Chrysler building? Many of first to fall. America the sold out. I'd puke but I haven't eaten in two days. And nothing worse than blowing cold spaggitios out the nose.

[edit on 8/12/2008 by jpm1602]

Originally posted by zorgon

Originally posted by DarthAmerica
Except that Haliburton is not holding those contracts. KBR does. And KBR is a publicly owned company. Also, there is a lot of competition across the board except that you rarely see it in the media....OOPs.

OOPS is right this post just proves you are full of it and only seek to instigate...

Halliburton and all of its subsidiaries, including KBR and DII Industries, will remain strong and healthy, with good growth prospects.

Where did I get this from?

Why gee HALIBURTON'S HOME PAGE
www.halliburton.com...

Imagine that?

So I ask you again how much ARE you getting paid for this?

I get paid by the USG. I know to you that means a vast conspiracy, secret handshakes and "skulls and bones." But it the real world it means I know you don't know what you are talking about. Again, we did this when we fought during Operation Allied Force. How come you ignored that? How come you didn't know KBR IS NOT a Halliburton subsidary?

KBR remained a part of Halliburton for 44 years until it officially separated in April 2007 to become a stand-alone company. Today, KBR employs over 50,000 people and is considered to be a leading global engineering, construction and services company which supports the energy, petrochemicals, government services and civil infrastructure sectors. KBR serves its customers with a broad range of products and services through its Energy and Chemicals (E&C), Government and Infrastructure (G&I) and Ventures business segments.

www.kbr.com...

How come? Halliburton's FAQ page is out of date. Wow, imagine that. Another conspiracy! An out of date webpage. If some of you want to make things up and self fulfill your own beliefs go right ahead. If you want to know the truth, read my post.

Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira
reply to post by DarthAmerica

 

I think this sums it all up perfectly for our self-appointed "Contracting Whizz" here...
Hence they are practically the same entity. Therefore, Halliburton IS the largest contractor in Iraq, unofficially/off the record/after dark/deep down inside.

Still think Contractors are a cheap and effective way of supporting an Army?

LOL no they are not. Again, when you work with these contractors everyday, then you can come talk to me about who the biggest is and what's cheaper. Until then, you are greatly lacking any relevant material to support any of your rhetoric. It helps to actually spend time WORKING WITH contractors like KBR and others in order to understand how this works...

media4.dropshots.com...

But again, if you feel the need to insist something sinister and that you somehow know more than me about this go right ahead...

reply to post by DarthAmerica


i appreciate you man. i've been trying to tell them that contractors are good people that like a fat paycheck but have been unsuccessful. now all this i like dick cheney talk is a different issue.

[edit on C20082008-08-12T23:42:56-05:00u08America/Chicago8 by FremenBlueEyes]