Confirmed: SS-21 Scarab launchers in S. Ossetia!

Originally posted by StellarX
They did( news to me)? Would it surprise you to know that those precision weapons are not all that precise in the first place?

Where have you been? There have been multiple videos of precision guided weaponry (notice I did not say US or NATO only) destroying a target without harming nearby buildings.

Good point about the launch windows. Kudos.

It would be very hard for the russians to deny where that fissile material came from. Gas spectrometer analysis would pinpoint that, unless it came from a hidden reactor, which is not outside the realm of possibility.

As far as what the retired colonel stated, it's there. Go back, read, and watch the videos. 90 seconds into the first video, IIRC.



[edit on 12-8-2008 by netwarrior]

I havent seen this come up in any of the "Georgia War" threads yet so I just wanted to comment on something that Russia said a couple of weeks ago, in response to the missile shield base in Czech.

I think Russia was just looking for an excuse to back up those threats without actually invading the Czech Republic or even Poland.
I dont believe this has anything to do with protecting Ossetians, this
is just another move on the chess board and Georgia was the pawn.

source

Russia threatened to retaliate by military means after a deal with the Czech Republic brought the US missile defence system in Europe a step closer.

The threat followed quickly on from the announcement that Condoleezza Rice signed a formal agreement with the Czech Republic to host the radar for the controversial project.

Moscow argues that the missile shield would severely undermine the balance of European security and regards the proposed missile shield based in two former Communist countries as a hostile move.

“We will be forced to react not with diplomatic, but with military-technical methods,” the Russian Foreign Ministry said in a statement.

Found in Gori, Georgia - Russian fragmentation weapons were used against civilians in violation of international weapons conventions.

reply to post by SurferXXX


I suppose displaying a dead pilot's body on National TV is completely in line with the Geneva Conventions? www.youtube.com...

As is deliberately targeting civilians? www.youtube.com...

"I came in the boot of a car. Georgian snipers were firing at us from the forest. I heard the bullets hitting the chassis.

"My relatives told me Georgian soldiers burnt to death a family of seven people in their apartment. An 18-year-old boy who climbed out into the street for a few moments was shot dead by a sniper."

www.guardian.co.uk...

“Georgian snipers are taking down anything that moves, even outside the town’s hospital, which is making it hard to deliver the wounded. They are not sparing anyone,”

www.timesonline.co.uk...

Or throwing grenades into basements where people are sheltered?

Stories of South Ossetian eye witnesses are horrendous revealing numerous cases of overt slaughter of children, women, aged and disabled seeking shelter in underground basement of houses into which Georgian soldiers threw hand grenades.

blogs.reuters.com...

Apples and friggin' watermelons here.

Neither side is innocent, but the Georgians sure as hell have a lot more to account for.
Their actions are deliberate and widespread.

Oh but Russia using cluster/fragmentation munitions? Oh gosh that's just incredibly news-worthy and so important that Russia is brought to realise the wrongs of their actions.

Forget civilians being dropped like flies, Russians are using cluster bombs people... the madness!



[edit on 12/8/08 by The Godfather of Conspira]

Godfather, I am just posting news without any bias. The use of fragmentation weapons against civilians violates international conventions regardless who used them.

Sniping at civilians is the same thing.

reply to post by SurferXXX


Very well, sorry for jumping the gun I assumed you were making a point there that Russia deserves more attention here regarding war crimes...

Attacking civilians deliberately or through gross negligence violates every war-time convention or law on the planet regardless of how you attack them.

Russia could be dropping shovels on their heads... doesn't matter.

Interesting to see how this one has heated up.

Lots of reasons for SS-21's in the area if you think about it though.

Think about it for a minute.
We only have confirmed reports about launchers that are nuclear capable..

Capable is the key word.

We have no idea what warheads are on the damn things.
SS-21's are a good way to launch large conventional warheads on the cheap whilst both keeping observers nervous and inducing lots of uncertainty.

Now..

Question: If you were worried about foreign intervention what would you do?
Answer: Put a big arse threat in the area.

Except we know SS-21's cannot be used strategically, only tactically, their range is too small.

So...

Question: Why would you put a 'possible tactical nuclear threat' in the area.

2 Answers really.

1. End game and a dead mans hand.
2. Bait.

In Georgia there was no end game and no possibility of losing.

Bait...

Now thats slightly more interesting.
Especially if you didn't trust your allies or neutral neighbors to stay neutral.

Quite obvious really.
Disposable cheap launchers that look tactical make perfect dummies if your enough of a suspicious bas**rd.

That missile battery is attached to the artillery battalion, where it goes they go.

They don't keep nuclear tips in their gloveboxes......

Satellites, X-band Hi def radars can tell whats in warhead (chem, Bio, Nuclear, HE) by their flight profiles.

Scuds are a political weapon, large circular area probables make them to uncertain (hence why they are called Ballistic and not Precision.)

That being said, they probably will not be fired in this conflict a 100 meter CEP on that lawn dart means they' have to pump about 10 out to get what they want. I'd only see them firing on a Dock or Air field that is heavy on the Air defense end that they would hit with the scarab but are to spooked of having a pilot shot down.

Originally posted by SurferXXX
Found in Gori, Georgia - Russian fragmentation weapons were used against civilians in violation of international weapons conventions.

I do not think Russians would deliberately use fragmentation weapons on civilians because it's pretty pointless and gives them (apparently) bad rap. Therefore, if indeed such weapons were used in Gori, they were dropped on the military base there (and yes, a couple of bombs could have gotten astray).

Odd..

The Georgian soldier interviewed in this pro-Georgian web site who just happened to be be based in Gori at the time appears to be saying the Russians didn't appear to be bombing civvies at all... never mind using cluster munitions on them..

An Interview with Saba S., Reservist from Gori

How'd you think someone who was fighting there just so happened to miss the apparent deliberate targeting of civilians with heavy artillery?

Hey, maybe the Georgians are now lying to themselves!

Or just maybe.. you shouldn't believe everything you see on the TV without actually being able to confirm it yourself, wot?

Originally posted by Backwoods

Oh and for the record a nuke that small would not reach out much beyond a mile or two. The bombs used in Japan were just under a megaton. Or 10 times the size this weapons system can deliver.

THat is incorrect..

The bomb dropped on Hiroshima was 13Kt... so if these are capable of 120-130kt warheads.. then your analogy is backwards.. these are capable of 10 times the destruction that was delievered to Japan.

reply to post by havingfun


I was in the Military and trust me nothing to fear from SS-21. If i remember correctly had a rang between 110 to 120 miles and is basically an artillery piece in fact there artillery is more accurate these a dumb missiles you set time of burn then they fall like a brick. As for nuclear capabilities they could launch aa60 however we used to call that stupid because in the likely hood you did this with a 1000 kiloton warhead blast range between 50 and 60 miles survive initial blast but would kill off any of there troops in the area within a week. It was a revenge weapon and would only be used if there military was already wiped out. Not something used in this situation would only be used if Russia was invaded as a slash and burn maneuver.

The Russian President has declared that peacekeeping operations are now over.

Russia now has half of Georgia - conflict is not yet over in Abkhazia, freedom fighters are still fighting the Georgian invaders, Russia may still be helping them. Israel and America are still arming and commanding Georgian forces.

American mercenaries are amongst the dead and captured. The Russian people blame America and Israel for instigating the conflict. The American people blame John Edwards for cheating on his wife and have been informed that Blue is the 'new green'.

Israel and America -2, Russia=1

Originally posted by netwarrior
Where have you been? There have been multiple videos of precision guided weaponry (notice I did not say US or NATO only) destroying a target without harming nearby buildings.

Sure there were but what methods were employed to achieve them? Spec forces with laser designators, GPS? That's my point and few people understand that weapons have become precise because there is so much more infrastructure and tactics ( to say nothing of manufacturing expense) implemented to support deployment.

Precision weapons have the very same old explosives as before and there is no magic that prevents collateral damage beside getting the bomb precisely on target thus requiring fewer explosives per target. I can assure you that a 1000 LB tomahawk warhead does plenty of damage to nearby buildings or even those not so near with the ability to easily kill people in the open 500 meters away. That's not so say it will kill EVERYONE at that distance ( a common misconception) but just that if your unlucky enough to be in way of flying reinforced concrete of shrapnel your not going to like it.

Good point about the launch windows. Kudos.

It wasn't such a good point ( i was vague as those things are pretty well classified) but from what i have read since i started with that idea i have come to believe that the capabilities or operational usefulness of spy satellites are vastly overrated by the average arm chair general.

It would be very hard for the russians to deny where that fissile material came from. Gas spectrometer analysis would pinpoint that, unless it came from a hidden reactor, which is not outside the realm of possibility.

Another highly technical field where i can but point out the lack of credibility the US has after Colin Powell and others pointed to facilities where WOMD were stored/manufactured. It's one thing to be technically correct in a given instance but a entirely different thing to be believed. There are very few informed parties ( which i suppose are rare parties any ways) that will believe that the Russians would choose to employ WOMD on a country such a Georgia. I suppose the precedent have been set ( US use of not so depleted DU) but i doubt the Russians will follow suit in equally reckless fashion.

As far as what the retired colonel stated, it's there. Go back, read, and watch the videos. 90 seconds into the first video, IIRC.

Oh... I am not in the habit of watching videos as they tend to contain the type of nonsense i would rather not expend bandwidth on. I will give it a look and then check if i can believe the 'colonel' .

Stellar

reply to post by netwarrior

Any first use of WMD's by a small army/country only gurantees anialation of those people with the same. It would be over almost as soon as it starts.

The Western Media is lying to us - Again.

Proof of Psy-Ops and Media Manipulation

The amount of lies being told is mind-blowing. Just look at the guy in those photos Actor?

reply to post by TruthTellist

Russia now has half of Georgia

Quite an assumption to say the least. Ossetia and Abkhazia comprise maybe a little less than a 1/4 of Georgia at the most. No where near half.

Where are you getting this from?

The Russian people blame America and Israel for instigating the conflict.

Forget the US and Israel. They blame Georgia first and foremost.

Incase you didn't know, Georgia shot down 2 Russian aircraft without provocation before the hostilities started:
www.timesonline.co.uk...
www.telegraph.co.uk...< br />
That's an act of war right there. More than enough of a case for Russia to stomp on the Georgians.

I wonder what the US would have done in that situation? The prospects are scary to even imagine...

reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira


Georgia is a Proxy State that is being used to Attack Russians in Ossetia.

America and Israel is providing weapons and advisors.

They just held war games together.

Russians know full well where Georgia is getting it's courage - America and Israel.

Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira
reply to post by centurion1211

 

Russia's not going to fall for the bait. Putin's smarter than that.
Notice how he restrained his military and marginalised the conflict to within the "break-away regions".
He wants to keep this controlled and minor (relatively speaking) because he doesn't want to risk losing all relations with the West over such an insignificant piece of dirt.

Putin's better than that. He's not going in. As much as he hates to admit it he needs the West economically more than ever now.

He's going to keep this as short and contained as possible, because he realises the Georgians would want him to go all out, and just commit all their forces to a full invasion so it would give them the ammo they need to call in their Western masters and push back Russia so they could grab some more land.
[edit on 12/8/08 by The Godfather of Conspira]

(Apologies if this becomes a mindless ramble; blame teething children)

I agree insofar as there is absolutely nothing to gain from the Russian perspective by taking this to another level. The hugest difference between modern Russia and the old Soviet Union is economics. A lot of powerful people getting rich stand to lose everything should there be a general war between Russia and the West. However unpleasant this all is to witness, World War III is unlikely.

Until the west deals with Russia as an equal (which, IMHO is all they really want), their insecurities will keep forcing them to take this kind of stand. Look how Russian troops were deployed to Kosovo to enable Serb troops to leave unharmed. The Russians are simply waving their toys and shoulting 'Look at me! I'm still here!'

While the press are guilding the lily just a little, Russia does have to be monitored very carefully. They are far more sophisticated than the old SU in that they now have to play international politics in a more devious manner, and Putin has swiftly become a master of this sort of thing. His early days were marked by an almost ineffectual weakness, yet he now is possibly the most dangerously effective man on the planet, and in my view, needs to be treated with extreme caution.

Uh, that's it really.

This particular rocket was carrying cluster HE munitions not a nuclear warhead.I have a picture of one landing on top of Georgian police car not the HE munitions but the booster part of the rocket.