No More Middle Class

uhhhhhh...no more middle class?

That's what the French Revolution was.

And we all know what happened there...they had a revolution to overthrow the ultimate power of the monarchy...and then they end up being run by Napoleon!

Interesting huh? The tables turned and turned again.

i think in order to really discuss the topic...we need to try to define 'rich', 'middle class' and 'poor'. censes brueau says that the poverty level is something like 18,000 a year-thats what the govt considers poor. the median income in is around 43,000. ( these are from the census buraeu...which i can't get into now...)
so what do you consider poor? is 40,000 yr supporting a family with 3 kids poor?? is is 35,000 yr-single no kids or spouse rich?.....something to think about...

I've heard it said many years ago, that if they divided all the money in the world equally to all the inhabitants, everyone would live a middle class life. However, in due time, the formerly rich would end up rich again and the formerly poor would be poor again. It is probably the effort factor - at least here in the US.

Of course the rich, if they take a hit, ...probubly will still be rich.

And the Middle Class, if they take a hit, you ever notice how easy it is for many, to fall into the lower class of poverty.

And the Lower Class,...they dont have much to lose.


But the middle class is where the action is economically, becouse they have the money to maintain current levels, or are growing rich, or are growing poor.
This class is Dynamic, as opposed to the other two.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
These are odd statements since the American middle class is the largest and wealthiest it's ever been.

Do you have any data to back this up... or just paranoid rantings from finge conspiracists?

I don't have anything to back it up with, I have just read in several places that that's where it is heading. I really can't see it in a lot of ways tho. The government helped the blacks get out of the slumbs and into nicer neighborhoods they are better educated and making more money. Shipping companys keep building bigger and nicer cruise liners which dirt poor can't afford to go on.

I can see where the gov. has made it a little more difficult to get into the pipe construction buisiness as we are in for instance. And if they didn't no one would be in it after a while. Fuel cost rising hits us extremely hard.

I guess right now I can't see it happening.

the poor stay poor cause they dont care
typical elitist response.
i know rich people who would disagree
some times you can bust your but and not get anywhere
those of you who dont think so have been conditioned to think otherwise
There are those who live in abject poverty because there parents lived in abject poverty
Id like to see one of the elitists take a ride up to some of the people ive seen in appalachia and tell one of there cavity ridden,havent ate in two days filthy clothed , no clean water drinking little children ...that if they just work there buts off one day theyll be able to get out this crap hole.
cmon
Mean while as you sit in your comfy office with your bmw parked outside sipping your venti double latte mocha that you paid 4 dollars for you can talk about how the public assistance programs,social security,and any supposed liberal fronts for wasting your tax dollars are being wasted on of bunch of lazy good for nothings and how its just a drain on your pay check.
Meanwhile the government can spend trillions of dollars of hard tax payers money on worthless weapons of war .....
u know like that helipcopter they scrapped just recently

[Edited on 15-3-2004 by watcheroftheskies]

[Edited on 15-3-2004 by watcheroftheskies]

i think this is relevant to put back to the top
the middle class is struggling and have seen many studies quoted on several news sources over the past 5 to 6 years that say the middle class is shrinking in america and the poor are growing
fringe conspiracy sceptic overlord???
that is a fitting name for u isnt it?

Then, bust yer butt to move beyond the low-wage job. There is a clear path many people have taken to get out of low-paying jobs. It may seem harsh and cold to say it this way, but for those who have bust their butts... it's true.

That's a real narrow minded view, probably coming from someone who's never been there. What of the people that have been disabled? Where's this "American Dream" for them?

No, there is not a clear path. If there was, we wouldn't have so many poor families. Because the working poor are in the majority, Skeptic.

This describes the middle-class, not the poor.


Medial Bills: The gouging of America by pharmaceutical companies and related health care providers is a completely different story. This speaks to corruption in U.S. Government, more than class struggles.

No, this describes the poor most of all. Middle class have it rough to, but some of them can atleast afford some form of health insurance. What health insurance do the poor have?

Not having health insurance is not a different issue because it plays into the same problem. The poor cannot afford health problems, they often have to work through them, or ignore them outright because any time from work would be devastating.

You forget to mention many factors, and one being badluck. Ya know? A car breaking down could be devastating. A kid with a cold and no babysitter can be devastating. Anything to upset the fragile balance many people live by can utterly destroy their accomplishments making them having to start from scratch.

way to lay it to them Thorfinn i couldnt agree with your more
sometimes no matter how hard you bust your but you cant get ahead
i bust my butt everyday and all i can do is maintain

Thanks for contributing to this thread everyone. I'm just wondering if there is a future for our family owned and operated pipe construction buiseness. We make decent money but are not getting rich by any means. I have a worn out back at 36 yrs of age. I would love to have more spare time but we don't seem to be able to slow down long enough to smell the roses.

The argument that people can work their tails off and become rich is not exactly true. People who are poor or middle class and work themselves to death to gain weath reach upper middle class or lower rich status. There is a distinct gap between people who have a lot of money and people who have a LOT of money. Multi billionaires are whom truly control this planet.

You cannot be somebody on the lower end of the classes and work your way into that higher echelon. The most any regular joe can hope to achieve is hundreds of thousands of dollars or a million or two. Petty change to the billionaire families of the earth who attain their wealth through genetic lineage and don't work for it.

I think perhaps the only man who has slipped from upper middle class to the truly rich in recent times is Bill Gates.

If you're a well off person like a superstar actor/singer, lawyer, politician, or doctor, there is still that unattainable level of wealth and power that even they cannot get into.

What will happen is the super rich are making sure to end all other class levels. You are either part of a multi billionaire family or you are susceptible to having all your money taken from you in some manner to join the ranks of the poor.

[Edited on 21-3-2004 by heelstone]

Originally posted by heelstone
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What will happen is the super rich are making sure to end all other class levels. You are either part of a multi billionaire family or you are susceptible to having all your money taken from you in some manner to join the ranks of the poor.

[Edited on 21-3-2004 by heelstone]

Thanks Heelstone, do you have a link on any information on this" no more middle class" topic that I might read?

[Edited on 22-3-2004 by TgSoe]

Originally posted by godservant
It is probably the effort factor - at least here in the US.

This, actually, is not true. The rich work for such a short time period in their lives, or get their money through inheritence. Now, alot of people will say that many people with high incomes still work really hard, like doctors, lawyers, etc. Yet, how did they get the money to go to med school? Daddy's wallet.

The lower and middle class will still be the lower and middle class simply because the American economy is scared of inflation.

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter

That's a real narrow minded view, probably coming from someone who's never been there. What of the people that have been disabled? Where's this "American Dream" for them?

Simply put...it doesn't exist.

The American Dream is a false reality we're all shoved into to play into someone else's hands and pay into someone else's wallet. The white picket fence, the equal opportunity for jobs myth, the car, the house, the 2.5 children, the perfect wife, the perfect job, suit, tie, briefcase.

How realistic does that sound for someone who's grown up poverty stricken? For someone who doesn't even know if they'll have running water when they wake up in the morning?

It's the American Nightmare at work, throwing you into the cradle of another mindless consumer, and if you refuse to stay asleep you'll be thrown into a bin with all the other "failures."

I don't think it is exactly a case for the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

I think a better way to describe it would be the rich get richer.
The poor stay poor.
The middle class gets larger as more and more of the upper middle class become regular middle class. It will take more and more income to reach the pinnacle of UPPER middle class. More and more people will be living from paycheck to paycheck.
Another group that will vanish is the small business owner, the entrepreneurs, as fewer and fewer companies control more and more. It will become even harder to become the next Bill Gates and the atmosphere to be creative will diminish.

IMHO

[Edited on 22-3-2004 by DontTreadOnMe]

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
I don't think it is exactly a case for the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

I think a better way to describe it would be the rich get richer.
The poor stay poor.
The middle class gets larger as more and more of the upper middle class become regular middle class. It will take more and more income to reach the pinnacle of UPPER middle class. More and more people will be living from paycheck to paycheck.
Another group that will vanish is the small business owner, the entrepreneurs, as fewer and fewer companies control more and more. It will become even harder to become the next Bill Gates and the atmosphere to be creative will diminish.

IMHO

Got any links on that ? I haven't read much on this subject yet. We have a small bussiness and I sure would hate to see it vanish.

Originally posted by Scat

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter

That's a real narrow minded view, probably coming from someone who's never been there. What of the people that have been disabled? Where's this "American Dream" for them?

Simply put...it doesn't exist.

The American Dream is a false reality we're all shoved into to play into someone else's hands and pay into someone else's wallet. The white picket fence, the equal opportunity for jobs myth, the car, the house, the 2.5 children, the perfect wife, the perfect job, suit, tie, briefcase.

How realistic does that sound for someone who's grown up poverty stricken? For someone who doesn't even know if they'll have running water when they wake up in the morning?

It's the American Nightmare at work, throwing you into the cradle of another mindless consumer, and if you refuse to stay asleep you'll be thrown into a bin with all the other "failures."

That's what i'm saying. The "American Dream" is a load of crap. It's not realistic for most because it's just not as simple as "hard work."

Originally posted by watcheroftheskies
i think this is relevant to put back to the top
the middle class is struggling and have seen many studies quoted on several news sources over the past 5 to 6 years that say the middle class is shrinking in america and the poor are growing
fringe conspiracy sceptic overlord???
that is a fitting name for u isnt it?

Did any of those articles ever define exactly what range middle class is? I assume it might be people who make over a hundred thousand a year or more. You can live with a roof over your head on thirty thousand dollars a year but there want be any extras. Two lezbians making 30 thousand a year might do alright living together.

Originally posted by TgSoe

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
Another group that will vanish is the small business owner, the entrepreneurs, as fewer and fewer companies control more and more. It will become even harder to become the next Bill Gates and the atmosphere to be creative will diminish.
IMHO

Got any links on that ? I haven't read much on this subject yet. We have a small bussiness and I sure would hate to see it vanish.

No links, just observations over the last 20-30 years. Small mom-and-pop places going under. Small farmers being gobbled by large corporations. Corner drug stores are almost all chain drug stores now. Fewer independent restaurants amid chains.

There are probably certain business sectors that will always be available to the independent, but those areas are lessening. For example, bed-and-breakfast seem to flourish.

If I happen to see anything on the subj, I will pass it along!
I sure hope your business thrives

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe

Originally posted by TgSoe

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
Another group that will vanish is the small business owner, the entrepreneurs, as fewer and fewer companies control more and more. It will become even harder to become the next Bill Gates and the atmosphere to be creative will diminish.
IMHO

Got any links on that ? I haven't read much on this subject yet. We have a small bussiness and I sure would hate to see it vanish.

No links, just observations over the last 20-30 years. Small mom-and-pop places going under. Small farmers being gobbled by large corporations. Corner drug stores are almost all chain drug stores now. Fewer independent restaurants amid chains.

There are probably certain business sectors that will always be available to the independent, but those areas are lessening. For example, bed-and-breakfast seem to flourish.

If I happen to see anything on the subj, I will pass it along!
I sure hope your business thrives

Thanks I hope it does too. It just amases me for new businesses to crop up out of nowhere and get ten times bigger than we are and do lesser quality of work. Its like somebody somewhere has got to be giving them a break man.