No More Middle Class

I read in Masonary beyond the Light by William Schnoebelen that ther eventually will be no more middle class only dirt poor or filthy rich. Does anyone know this to be true?

[Edited on 15-3-2004 by John bull 1]

The only thing I can really say to this is take a look around. What do you think? It's certainly heading that way.

i agree that it's heading that way. almost every day you can see more seperation between the middle and upper classes. hmmm... what happened in france a century or so ago when there was only the dirt poor and the very rich? viva la revolution!

These are odd statements since the American middle class is the largest and wealthiest it's ever been. Do you have any data to back this up... or just paranoid rantings from finge conspiracists?

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
These are odd statements since the American middle class is the largest and wealthiest it's ever been.

Do you have any data to back this up... or just paranoid rantings from finge conspiracists?

Well, Tony Blair did say that he wanted to make EVERYONE middle class over here, but I don't see how that can work. It just seems to make sense that as the rich get richer the poor will get poorer.
I will have to admit though I've watched They Live far too much.

1) The rich get richer... because they know how. 2) The poor stay poorer... because they don't care. Now... before I get slain by the neuvo-liberals for the #2 statement, understand the context. Here in NYC, I've met countless people who came here with dirt (usually from another country), worked their buts off, and now own a house or more (4 family buildings, etc.). Anyone willing to put forth an effort can move up from poor to middle-class, or middle-class to rich. I see it every day. The rich are very often rich because someone in their family before them worked their butts off to migrate from poor-to-middle-to-rich. The middle-class consumer population in the world is the largest and most well-off it's ever been. Every current aspect of society works better because of this.

Well from your comments Skeptic I can feel a Capatilism vs. Communism discussion coming around the corner. I'm running for cover.

Originally posted by John Nada
Well from your comments Skeptic I can feel a Capatilism vs. Communism discussion coming around the corner. I'm running for cover.

No, I can see Skeptics point, if you get rid of the middle class, and leave Rich------poor, who is going to work for the rich? The poor right? Believe me, a lot of those poor, WILL do exactly as Skeptic mentioned, work thier butts off and raise above "poor" then what? Do the rich come in and take their money away? To me that would have to be a totalitarian government
en.wikipedia.org...

It would be the only way to have 2 classes of people

Yeah NetStorm I can see where Skeptic is coming from, but I've heard many good arguments against what he says, and unfortunately I don't have time to get involved in something that'll get very ugly most likely.

Originally posted by John Nada but I've heard many good arguments against what he says,

Oh come-on, don't be chicken! Here... I'll help you. Answer this question... How could the rich get rich and/or stay rich from the poor?

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by John Nada
but I've heard many good arguments against what he says,

Oh come-on, don't be chicken!

Here... I'll help you. Answer this question...

How could the rich get rich and/or stay rich from the poor?

How did you get the words upside down? That is awesome, man. By the way, I totally agree with what you are saying.

Mr. M

***running further and further away...faint footsteps disappear...***

i agree that it's heading that way. almost every day you can see more seperation between the middle and upper classes. hmmm... what happened in france a century or so ago when there was only the dirt poor and the very rich? viva la revolution!

Revolution.... Well, when you have swords, and the government has only swords as well....this is somewhat more easily done. When you have a pistol or a rifle, and the government has stealth aircraft, satellite surveilance, weapons of mass destruction, and sonic weapons....it gets a bit more difficult to effect, hehe.....

The only way to effect change is to try and convince the sheeples of what's going on...

Nah. The middle class isn't going anywhere.

(I know you folks get tired of the Budding Anthropological Answers, but...)

The class system is not just an economic structure; it's a social structure. In the old feudal days, the reason that there was no middle class was because there was a rigid class/caste structure that was in place in Europe (and most other countries) that stayed in place until the rise of the democracies and democratic-style governments.

In our country, people move from one class to another... the rich can become poor and homeless, the poor and homeless can become middle class, and so on and so forth. In a rigid caste system, the most successful of the "poor caste" could never rise above that class -- they could become "overlords" of a group of poor, but they would never have access to some of the things that would establish them in another class...

...things like access to financial advisors and investment vehicles and joint ventures (where you and a group of influential partners buy a large busines), etc, etc.

With a fluid class system, there will always be people moving in and out of each of the sectors.

With a rigid caste system, you'd get that inequality. But it's not possible in modern society.

Originally posted by Gazrok

i agree that it's heading that way. almost every day you can see more seperation between the middle and upper classes. hmmm... what happened in france a century or so ago when there was only the dirt poor and the very rich? viva la revolution!

Revolution.... Well, when you have swords, and the government has only swords as well....this is somewhat more easily done. When you have a pistol or a rifle, and the government has stealth aircraft, satellite surveilance, weapons of mass destruction, and sonic weapons....it gets a bit more difficult to effect, hehe.....

The only way to effect change is to try and convince the sheeples of what's going on...

~*~

TPTB (elites/executives, bloodbankers, etc)
would not want a revolution that kills the masses
that produce the luxury, wealth, which they cornered.

-> which is why...you the taxpayer & middleclass citizen
are financing the Non-Lethal Weapons Systems, now being developed and integrated into all level of 'law-enforcement'...which will be used to control youse!! total irony!!

VI VI VI-> its just a matter of Perspective.....
you think the middle class is evaporating, eh???

NO, it is only being Down-Sized!!
as more & more immigrants (legal or illeagle) enter the economy.
-> they become more fodder for the CREDIT dynamic!
-> as the population of debters grows...and the ammount of debt owed grows....the height of 'the bar' is lowered!

**if you think the elites making 400 times the $$ of the
avg man-hour wage is extreme today.....

what will you say when the compensation, perks, golden parachutes of the 'elites' reaches +1000 times
what the 'poor schmuck' gets to live on???

Frank Zappa, did a tune called 'Penguin in Bondage'
...boing....boing...

so, Gazrok, the sheeple HAVE been made aware
in many ways, by many people, for a long time...

but---- its the same-old-same-old....the shiney '30 pieces'
...but rationalization & quibbleing soon null those pesky
higher voices from within

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
How could the rich get rich and/or stay rich from the poor?

Exactly, if the poor could serve the rich they wouldn't be the poor anymore. An educated class is necessary. This may light a few fires but the poor isn't necessarily the most educated of the classes. Who else can manage the factories and businesses to enable the rich to get richer -- educated middle class workers.

Secondly, if there was no middle class how would the loss in tax revenue be recovered? By taxing the poor more? Nope, the rich would have to pay a higher share or social services would take a massive cut.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
1) The rich get richer... because they know how.

2) The poor stay poorer... because they don't care.

Now... before I get slain by the neuvo-liberals for the #2 statement, understand the context. Here in NYC, I've met countless people who came here with dirt (usually from another country), worked their buts off, and now own a house or more (4 family buildings, etc.). Anyone willing to put forth an effort can move up from poor to middle-class, or middle-class to rich. I see it every day. The rich are very often rich because someone in their family before them worked their butts off to migrate from poor-to-middle-to-rich.

The middle-class consumer population in the world is the largest and most well-off it's ever been. Every current aspect of society works better because of this.

Actually, Skeptic. I must add to those two.

1: The rich are rich because they screw over the middle and poor classes by keeping wages down, meanwhile giving themselves the equivalent of 400 times more in compensation than the average worker makes per hour. Plus using the mess that is the tax code to prevent from paying taxes almost outright.

2: The poor are poor either because they are busy paying off debt due to college loans, or medical bills because they cannot afford healthcare, working two jobs, barely getting by, plus paying the taxes along with the middle class. Or, more often than not, the poor are just beaten down by the system and have utterly accepted the fact that they will remain poor and just can't handle it anymore.

You either walk on people to get to the top, or you get beaten down. That's how it works in this country. Though are exceptions as there are with everything else. But that's the basic idea.

Working people (and I mean actualy working people, I don't mean someone who sits at a desk and visits forums all day) have been screwed over a long long LONG time in this country...

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter 1: The rich are rich because they screw over the middle and poor classes by keeping wages down,

Then, bust yer butt to move beyond the low-wage job. There is a clear path many people have taken to get out of low-paying jobs. It may seem harsh and cold to say it this way, but for those who have bust their butts... it's true.

2: The poor are poor either because they are busy paying off debt due to college loans, or medical bills because they cannot afford healthcare, working two jobs, barely getting by, plus paying the taxes along with the middle class.

This describes the middle-class, not the poor. Medial Bills: The gouging of America by pharmaceutical companies and related health care providers is a completely different story. This speaks to corruption in U.S. Government, more than class struggles.

Money is and never was the measure of social class. Upper class asristocrats can have no money, and working class 'heros' can become ridiculously rich.

The rich getting richer and poor getting poorer, well I don't see how they can be getting poorer, but there is certainly a bigger division now. It is simply down to success, those who can do, those who can't don't, it is as simple as that. There are more self-made millionaires now than ever before and their social 'class' has nothing to do with whether or not they can earn money, they either do or don't.

Unfortunately in any social/economic hierarchy, you get those at the bottom, the majority who support and work for the minority. Having a single class or wealth would break this heirarchy. I think that there is more incentive now to earn money because eally anyone can make it and be rich, it is no longer just the highly educated or inherited that are rich. If the poor really are getting poorer in a world where living standards are getting better and there is more money than ever before then obviously something is not happening.

I think that in comparrison the poor seem poorer, especially in other countries where technology and economies don't move at the same speed they do in others. Only if all countries accepted a single currency and ran the same economy could there be no poverty but then that isn't going to happen is it?

It can be put down to naural selection, those capable of earning more do, and continue to, just like species that are able to adapt and survive do and continue to.

I think overall higher education is needed to give everyone more of a chance of avoiding poverty and financial problems, but simply taxing the super rich more won't do it, as they run the economy, you have to keep them happy, so where does the money come from, how do we keep everyone happy? This is the problem facing many governments today, and if it isn't solved there may well be a communist vs capatalist world being created...

Personally I don't see how this discussion/argument can even happen because those that are rich, powerful and (ok I suppose) educated control everything, but those who are poor and uneducated will want money and power. as there is a division in not only wealth but ower, intellect and understanding no-one would win the argument as niether side can understand the other side. The real challenge is trying to stop the sides ever being created we need to remove the world's largest natural resource 'stupidity' so that everyone can be more generally understanding, intelligent and realiase that we are after all a species and whether you earn money or not, everyone should be contributing towards everyone else, it's what keeps us going, a heirarchy of ability, just like every other species...

P.S If you are offended by this post or disagree with what has been said, keep it to yourself, please don't kill me...

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
These are odd statements since the American middle class is the largest and wealthiest it's ever been.

Do you have any data to back this up... or just paranoid
rantings from fringe conspiracists?

I agree, not only in first world countries are the middle class getting bigger, but even in 3rd world countries such as India and China, both these have massivly growing middle classes. It's a strong middle class that makes a democracy.

I think this is just paranoia, and would like to see some source files to the quote.