Dr. Ivins: Anthrax suspect..... Scapegoat?

Originally posted by Osiris1953

Then comes the issue of Ivins mental health.

Army scientist Bruce Ivins had a history of paranoia, obsession and delusional thinking. And newly unsealed court documents show he didn't keep them to himself.

So this guy despite being overtly "crazy" was allowed to work with highly infectious diseases in one of the most secure laboratories in the US. Even though there is extensive psychological screening, and anyone that shows even the slightest instability is removed from the facility Dr. Ivins remained. Even those who worked at the lab had no idea why he would have been kept there if his insanity was so clear and apparent. This is a little fishy by itself.

Wouldn't it be interesting to know what some of Dr Ivin's delusional thinking comprised of? Like maybe he was complaining that he was ordered to hand over some anthrax samples to government hatchet men? Or maybe he blamed the government for the attacks? Aren't these the delusional thinking that many of us here on ATS are accused of? Not to mention the paranoia?

I heard on the news the other night that the FBI were saying he was the only person responsible for the anthrax attacks, the only person with access etc... and the presenter even went so far as to observe that these comments were being made before the poor guy had been buried!!

They actually questioned the FBIs motives for such a comment at that time, and how they could be so sure so quickly after his death, and especially in light of his death. He also raised the point that basically a dead guy can't defend himself.

This was on an early-morning radio show on the BBC (not all their programs tow the government line). Early as in 2AM.

Is this another Dr. David Kelly kind of suicide?

[edit on 9-8-2008 by mirageofdeceit]

This segment of: "The Third Stage" says it all...

www.youtube.com...

reply to post by Ameneter

A week later, on July 4, he wrote to his friend that his psychiatrist and his counselor now thought that his symptoms "may not be those of depression or bipolar disorder, they may be that of a 'paranoid personality disorder.' "

That Aug. 12, he wrote about what he called one of his "worst days in months."

"I wish I could control the thoughts in my mind. It's hard enough sometimes controlling my behavior. When I'm being eaten alive inside, I always try to put on a good front here at work and at home, so I don't spread the pestilence. ..." he wrote. "I get incredible paranoid, delusional thoughts at times, and there's nothing I can do until they go away, either by themselves or with drugs."

wenatcheeworld.com.../20080807/NEWS02/283629349/-1/NEWS03

Well this seems to be about as detailed as it gets as far as what he was supposedly going through. Again, it's impossible to confirm that he truly was like this. What's odd is that I have an AA in psychology which doesn't make the be all to end all expert but I'd never even heard of 'paranoid personality disorder' before this case. Though it does in fact exist, it seems to be quite rare that anyone is actually diagnosed with it. What I find interesting is that it would be the type of behavior one might do if they knew they were the center of a conspiracy.

Quote from DSM-IV which is sitting in my lap at this very moment.

Diagnostic Criteriafor 301.0 Paranoid Personality Disorder

A. A pervasive distrust and suspiciousness of others such that their motives are interpreted as malevolent, beginning in early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by four (or more) of the following:

(1) suspects, without sufficient basis, that others are exploiting, harming, or deceiving him/her

(2) is preoccupied with unjustified doubts about the loyalty or trustworthiness of friends or associates

(3)is reluctant to confide in others because of unwarranted fear that the information will be used maliciously against him or her

(4) reads hidden demeaning or threatening meanings into benign remarks or events

(5) persistently bears grudges, i.e., is unforgiving of insults, injuries, or slights

(6) perceives attacks on his or her character or reputation that are not apparent to others and is quick to act angrily or to counterattack

(7)has recurrent suspicions , without justification, regarding fidelity of spouse or sexual partner

Now I don't know about you, but if I was the center of this investigation, while working at a government owned lab, I would more than likely show many symptoms of paranoid personality disorder myself. Throw in number six as a motive, and the feds can wrap it all up in a nice neat little somewhat believable package.

It really is unbelievable.

reply to post by mirageofdeceit


Thanks for the info. The FBI should at least have a little bit of respect for the family.... seriously.

I don't know if this like the David Kelly incident, I don't really remember the details of that case.

I remember seeing on TV they did handwriting analysis on the letter. I wonder if any one has a copy of this news report so we could compare what there saying about this guy Ivins. I remember the letter read something like
“This is now this is what’s next”
Does anybody else remember this news report?
I think it was on FOX.

If you want to look at the David Kelly case, here's a start:

David Kelly

Who knew being a scientist was so dangerous?

reply to post by NGC2736


Well at the very least it looks to be crystal clear that Kelly was murdered and why he was murdered. It's amazing how easy government agencies and affiliates can go about such atrocities and easily convince the public that everything is fine and dandy.

I for one, refuse to fall for the most obvious of lies.

I wouldn't say this is very similar to the case at hand, but the death of scientists for imperial purposes is disturbing no matter the circumstances.

Thanks again.

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


I don't recall anything that was written in the letters. I'm sure I can probably find something after a bit of digging. Thanks anonymous person.

Some questions need to be asked like:

Why did this Dr Irvins guy send the Anthrax? What were his delusions based on? Why wasn't this spotted earlier? What was he trying to achieve?

I'll be amazed if they can answer any of those convincingly.

reply to post by MacDonagh


These are the types of questions they have been answering..... just very unconvincingly IMO. I'm sure along the way there will be more inconsistencies that will blow apart the paper thin believability of the narrative they are constructing.

This drips of hatchet job. I agree that someone in that position could not go long with a mental disorder of the depth they are suggesting, getting honors along the way, and not be called out by the "observers."

I bet he did not commit suicide and was instead murdered, and his death looked handy to "close the case" on the anthrax attacks (being as it was embarrassing to begin with that the anthrax was traced, not to some weird place in the world but to our own back yard).

Yeah, being a scientist for the Feds or Big Business can be VERY hazardous to one's health.

Originally posted by Amaterasu

I bet he did not commit suicide and was instead murdered, and his death looked handy to "close the case" on the anthrax attacks (being as it was embarrassing to begin with that the anthrax was traced, not to some weird place in the world but to our own back yard).

Well the very fact that the Dr. Ivins worked for the government threw up a red flag for me immediately. I believe he was murdered, but it is possible that he did kill himself realizing the position he was being put in whether guilty of the attacks under direction or not.

By the way.... I didn't know kami frequented this site. J/K, but I had to say something given I'm one of the few American shintoists of non Japanese decent out there.

My compliments on a good thread Osiris,

There is one possibility that you left out that just hit me reading this.

If Dr. Ivins was the only one who oversaw access to this particular strain of Anthrax and it was the one used in the attack, and if he wasn't the one that used it to send the letters, more than likely he would know who did.

I also don't think the crazy scientist story holds up. You don't allow a person with those kind of problems work for 35 years on bioweapons. That is the most ridiculous claim of all.

I think he probably knew who was behind the attack, and being in the employ of the gov. he kept his mouth shut. Look at the timing. In a few months we will elect a new president and the WH will change hands, possibly to a democrat. If this happens, you certainly would not want to leave any loose ends lying around.

I'm not sure if I believe this theory 100%, but there it is.

[edit on 8/9/2008 by Hal9000]

Originally posted by Hal9000

I think he probably knew who was behind the attack, and being in the employ of the gov. he kept his mouth shut. Look at the timing. In a few months we will elect a new president and the WH will change hands, possibly to a democrat. If this happens, you certainly would not want to leave any loose ends lying around.

Thank you so much Hal, you just gave an excellent theory as to "Why now?" question that has been bugging the hell out of me all day. It seems like it is at least a good possibility that is exactly why they would choose now to have Ivins removed from the picture, and to expose his "guilt" to the public.

As far as him knowing who did do it. I can't decide fully whether it is more likely he was directed to send the letters, or that other officials used him to access the samples used in the attacks. I keep going back and forth on what seems more plausible. Either way, he was the most obvious patsy available.

Thanks so much for your compliments. I try not to start threads unless I have something that is important, pertinent, and non-repetitive to say.

Anyone else found something that I may have missed? I would love to hear it. It could potentially further our understanding of these circumstances.

[edit on 9-8-2008 by Osiris1953]

www.anthraxinvestigation.com

This link examines the letters themselves, at least the ones we're allowed to see.

If the guy is homicidal, why try to pin it on Muslims? Why were the recipients selected like they were? I'm not buying the good catholic bad catholic crap that's for sure.

Maybe someone can take look at hand writing samples and tell us if they match Dr. Ivins scribble.

www.anthraxinvestigation.com...

edit for better link

[edit on 8/9/2008 by infinityoreilly]

Originally posted by Osiris1953
Well the very fact that the Dr. Ivins worked for the government threw up a red flag for me immediately. I believe he was murdered, but it is possible that he did kill himself realizing the position he was being put in whether guilty of the attacks under direction or not.

I think he was looking forward to an opportunity to tell what he knew - whether in regime change (though the "regime" would still be the same, regardless) or as he approached an older age...who knows...but that somehow "they" got wind of it, axed him, and then pinned the wrong-doing on him (like was mentioned, I think he knew who was responsible, but was not responsible himself except as an accessory, perhaps - though it may have been that he was "played" and then was threatened to keep him quiet...).

I also think that the anthrax thing was part of the 9/11 plan, but it did not play as planned - there was no good way to implicate "terrorists (of Muslim variety)" and the fact that the stuff was from our own (very well protected) facilities made it even harder to concoct a good story - so the media dropped it like a overly warm tuber. And "we" forgot about it.

Now suddenly, with no hints anywhere, he is about to be pounced on and charged with the attacks - and he is conveniently dead and unable to tell what he knows.

Notice that the anthrax is no longer a "Muslim plot..." Notice how they twisted and contorted trying to link it to the Muslims at the time...and now they don't even bring them up...?

Hmmmm.

By the way.... I didn't know kami frequented this site. J/K, but I had to say something given I'm one of the few American shintoists of non Japanese decent out there.

Ahhhh. [smile] I feel a good deal of affinity towards the Shinto views - though I am a-religious. Spiritual, yes. Religious, no.

And I, too, am not Jananese.

[edit on 8/10/2008 by Amaterasu]

Originally posted by Amaterasu
I also think that the anthrax thing was part of the 9/11 plan, but it did not play as planned - there was no good way to implicate "terrorists (of Muslim variety)" and the fact that the stuff was from our own (very well protected) facilities made it even harder to concoct a good story - so the media dropped it like a overly warm tuber. And "we" forgot about it.

It probably was part of the 9/11 plan, at least that's how it was construed by the media as it was happening. Of course in our minds it was all part of the overall scheme by the powers at be, and not some Muslim fundamentalists. No matter what role he played in all of this, he is most definitely dead. Whatever the circumstances surrounding his death are, it certainly helps not having him around.

I dunno. Thanks again for posting.

And... Thanks for replying to my shinto tangent, but it seemed necessary to me.

Another thought came to mind. Dr Ivins, being the expert that he is, would have known that the anthrax would have been traced back to him. If he were behind the attack, wouldn't he have used a different one? I think he would have chose a type that was more crude and not traceable to be more convincing at blaming terrorists. Even if he was a kook, he wasn't stupid.

[edit on 8/10/2008 by Hal9000]