Our inevitable fate.

Originally posted by Incarnated

Originally posted by Lethil

Originally posted by Incarnated

Originally posted by Lethil
Urantia=plagarised new age/religious mumbo jumbo....I wouldn't be shouting at the rooftops with recommendations for that book....

[edit on 9-8-2008 by Lethil]

Yeah well as always the majority isn't ready for the truth.

You shouldn't feel bad about this. You just were not up to it.

Another possibility is you cannot comprehend fact from fiction...i think a survey would show me to be correct...

yeah sure a "servey" from the majority that through time is always shown to be wrong in spades. However that the majoirty rules so you must be right right? WRONG!

It wasnt written before dead sea scrolls...it is a complete merge of new age nonsense and religious mumbo jumbo...all in one book to satsify the hunger of deluded people who cannot equate the difference between words and facts...Really its nonsense...but of course,i cant read the book and see the meaning unlike you...

Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by TheStev

 

When you consider the epic size of a human mind, even if you just consider the memories, that is an enormous amount of information. To think that an entire life of memories can be stored within a small chunk of flesh just doesn't jive with me. And that's just memories, add in the abilities, speech, co-ordination, emotion. It's just too much for the physical size of the brain.

.........................The capacity of modern computer memories is astounding; yet to date we have only scratched the surface.


If you want to assert that there's something special about consciousness - that it is some kind of ghost in the machine or an immortal entity subsistent in a 'space' that is not spacetime - you are of course free to do so. But you must be honest and admit to yourself and others that it is a belief you hold because you wish to do so, not because it is supported by anything akin to a fact.

I think most people are willing to admit that it is a belief - they are quite honest about it - that they have chosen to believe it

Kind of the point of the whole discussion - that's why we're all hanging out here in the Philosophy and Metaphysics forum and not the Science forum

we're having a little chat about - what do you think happens after we die?

not that science doesn't have a place in this thread - but it's not about proving anything - it's about what we believe

you believe that when we're done we're done - and that's fine

but - facts aren't really necessary to belief

and besides - facts can be somewhat malleable - even in science

even when you don't actually mess with them - the facts can change - given time and new research

the part that I think is so interesting - is your apparent awe and wonder at the complexity of the human mind - and your statement that we've only just begun to scratch the surface

why not wonder at what more it can do - what more it may be - and admit that you've chosen not to contemplate it?

it's not a judgment - it's an honest question

I'm always interested in understanding why imagination has no place in science - why something that isn't obvious can't possibly be real?

[edit on 8/9/2008 by Spiramirabilis]

[edit on 8/9/2008 by Spiramirabilis]

[edit on 8/9/2008 by Spiramirabilis]

[edit on 8/9/2008 by Spiramirabilis]

Originally posted by Astyanax
So, on this subject, nearly everyone's an expert?

So we have these posts telling us exactly what's over on the Other Side, and why?

So, how many of these experts have died yet?

Yeah, thought so.

well what if what we beleive to be alive is actually that we are dead as in maybe we are all ghosts and that if when we die we then actually become alive or awake just a thought

Originally posted by Astyanax
So, on this subject, nearly everyone's an expert?

So we have these posts telling us exactly what's over on the Other Side, and why?

So, how many of these experts have died yet?

Yeah, thought so.

well what if what we beleive to be alive is actually that we are dead as in maybe we are all ghosts and that if when we die we then actually become alive or awake just a thought

Its the chicken or the egg question.

Did God create the brain or does the brain create God?

Many neuroscientist's view ideas of purpose or meaning as an adaptation bent toward human survival. The notion of purpose is merely an illusion which has enabled mankind to survive.

Francis Crick, co discoverer of the genetic code says

Our highly developed brains, after all, were not evolved under the pressure of discovering discovering scientific truths but only to enable us to be clever enough to survive and leave descendants."

This very extreme approach to human awareness can be contrasted with other free thinkers who surmise that the brain is an organ used via the mind.

For example, we very seldom hear somebody say "Bike helmets prevent MIND damage"...we say ..."bike helmets prevent BRAIN damage.."....

to contrast that we very seldom hear " I made up my BRAIN to buy a bike"..we say " I made up my MIND to buy a bike"...

Speaking with a retired Psych prof a few months ago, who is getting very old and his memory is not as quick as it once was said to me, while holding his had about a foot above his head.." my thoughts are out here now" demonstrating an idea to me that as we approach death in old age our mind begins to prepare the move.

Do we have proof of the "mind or the "soul"?

We do not have scientific proof in the purest sense of the word yet thier exists a heavy weight of evidence which can be somewhat stunning upon first glance.

One neuroscientist from UCLA has approached this problem from a different vantage point.

Jeffrey Schwartz, a UCLA neuropsychiatric, treats the "mind" in order to reprogram the brain.

This approach created some very studied results.

An example could be drawn from a case study of an OCD group. By treating the characteristics of OCD, namely, intursive thoughts, distressing thoughts, unwanted thoughts, via the method of "mind over matter" he was able to remap the brains of his patients, reducing the inclination of damaging thoughts and bringing many OCD patients to recovery.

He, as well as some other neuroscientists, although they are a minority, now approach purpose, meaning, emotions and consciousness in a different manner.

They treat the "soul" in order to treat a brain.







[edit on 9-8-2008 by whiteraven]

Materialistic explanations of religion, spirituality have become popular in certain scientific circles reducing the human experience to the fat gene, the infidelity gene, the sociopath gene reducing the cry of purpose, meaning, to mere the idea that "god" is an adapted belief system used to reduce the shock of death, the rape of a victims belief system by the conquerors, the stark realities of life to our ever expanding awareness of the world around us.

The reduction of `the shock of reality is done via the reward of a good life lived creates currency toward an afterlife.

For example when Billy Graham dies, it will be assumed by the masses that his reward will be great.

But when Saddam died it is surmised by the masses that he will not have such a collection of riches when he meets his maker.

So, this type of awareness enables the masses to move toward a more peaceable existence thereby increasing the stability of family, stability of community and survival of our children.

We teach the discipline of the prevailing viewpoint to our children who survive, who in turn teach that viewpoint to their surviving children and soon we have a religion. (By the way a strict definition of the word religion is discipline)

So. that is my condensed version of a materialist viewpoint.

Yet, it still does not direct its view toward the very heart of the matter and that is the cry of every persons heart at some point....that is mans search for meaning in the face of this savage world we have evolved in.



[edit on 9-8-2008 by whiteraven]

Further studies in the ever expanding field of the neuro sciences have brought about a post neospiritual reaction toward many in the sciences.

We have an ever dividing gulf in this world with neuro science reinterpreting the spiritual experience.

This has been aided by anthropologists such as J.G. Frazer who being an expert in ancient religion put forth the idea that modern belief systems evolved out of ancient fertility cults and were only later spiritualized.

Chicken and egg idea again.

In contrast to J. G. Frazer, in the sense of dissonant harmony, some
Involved in ancient religious studies, the neuro sciences and society now site heavy evidence that spiritual experience preceded the practice of a religion.

We now have case studies of persons who have undergone NDE`s only to return to their body, dramatically alter their worldview, and fearlessly give themselves to the idea’s of God, family and state.

The ideas of Mario Beauregard, Ph.D. explore some of these ideas

Q: Are spiritual experiences delusions created by a misfiring brain?

A: No. There is no God spot in the brain. Spiritual experiences are complex, like intense experiences with other human beings. There is, however, a mystical state of experience that is not quite the same thing as an emotional state. That does not prove that the mystic contacts something outside herself, but it is consistent with it.

Q: Can the mind be active when the brain is non-functional?

A: Much serious near death research suggests so. Reports of near death experiences are more common now, on account of the fact that high tech interventions frequently bring people back from states of death.

Some of these ideas can be found in the writings of various persons.

Elisabeth Kübler-Ross, M.D.en.wikipedia.org...


Mario Beauregard Consciousness, emotional self-regulation, and the brain www.amazon.com/Spiritual-Brain-Neuroscientists-Case-Existence/dp/0060858834


Man`s Search for Meaning www.amazon.com...

www.amazon.com/Big-Book-Near-Death-Experiences/dp/1571745475/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1218323294&sr=1-1


Many, many others.

posted twice sorry

[edit on 9-8-2008 by whiteraven]

reply to post by Astyanax

I never made any mention of processing speed, so we can just leave that section right there. But in terms of miniaturisation, I'm well aware of just how far we've come. But even with a molecule holding a bit of data, that's a minuscule amount of storage compared to a lifetime of human experiences. I'm sorry, but the same bit simply cannot be used to store the exact nature of that nervous feeling in your stomach the first time you kissed a girl, along with the knowledge of how to hold a pen properly to write.

I get that we've come a long way in terms of storing a lot of information in a small amount of space, but as I said earlier 'a lot of information' in computer terms, is just nothing compared to the depth of human experience. Y'all keep attacking how much we can store, you need to look at how much we would need to be able to store to store the human mind. That's what I'm pointing at.

And I'm pretty certain 'just doesn't jive with me' is about as clear as I can say 'this is what I believe, this is what feels right to me'. And be aware, that between you and me, I'm the only one saying that.

I think most people are willing to admit that it is a belief - they are quite honest about it - that they have chosen to believe it

I would agree that many people are willing to admit that. But there are also many people, particularly in scientific fields, who are not. There are also many in this thread who are not. There are not 'beliefs and other beliefs' there are 'facts and wrong beliefs'. For example:

What? Energy of consciousness? its the exact same energy that does anything else in your brain...speaking...memory...coordination etc There is no disputing that

99% of neurologists will tell you that conscious resides within the brain

(inference of 'fact')

yes we dont know how conscious came to be in evolutionary terms...i already said that...but (we do know) its not anywhere except inside your brain

parenthesis my addition

We know what consciousness is

If you wish to choose to believe otherwise, then that is of your own opinion. However, opinions do not facts make.

But you must be honest and admit to yourself and others that it is a belief you hold because you wish to do so, not because it is supported by anything akin to a fact.

My beliefs and ideas are construed as only beliefs, their beliefs and ideas, because they're the same as some of the beliefs and ideas of science, are indisputable 'fact'.

Honestly, if you've been quoted above, think about the way you put forward what you believe. It's not fact. I know the things I believe are beliefs. I know they're not proven, but I know they're not disproved either. And I know that nothing in this field is completely proven. So get off your collective high-horses, and realise that there's not 'how things are' and 'people who are wrong and deluded', there's simply a bunch of people trying to figure out how the hell things are.

@TheStev:

We're not trapped in anything. To say we are trapped in something would imply that we are separate from the brain, which is illogical considering there is no evidence, experimental nor observational that would even lead one to conclude such a thing.

The brain does not store all information that it receives. Heck, it doesn't even process all information it's various sensors are capable of picking up. While the organ itself is vastly complex, and poorly understood, that is still not a good enough reason to assume that the mind is separate from it.

It is because of fear of the unknown that we even have such concepts. These concepts give is a 'good feeling'. Maybe death isn't the end because of 'insert assumption here'. People didn't understand natural weather phenomenon and so subscribed that it must be the work of gods, do you also subscribe to that belief?

@incarnated:

Urantia is wrong on many accounts, and yes, the dead sea scrolls were known of before Urantia was printed. What about the account of mercury? Only one side receives full sun? We know this to not be true, but at the time Urantia was printed, that was current science. There are many scientific things in Urantia that were current then, and wrong now.

@whiteraven

Interesting, do you have a link to the study? I am rather curious how he can treat the mind when there is no clear indication that the mind is separate from the brain and all experimental evidence clearly indicates that it is a product of the brain. Basically a mirror of empathy, a trait most species possess on this planet.

Their are many studies. I will give a link to some of the more current ideas.

The 'Haute Couture' of many in the academic world, the NAS, leans toward a materialistic worldview that has chewed at the heels of theists and the like for over 6000 years.

I, myself liken this to the year 1966 when Time magazine, tried to have a coming out party for the elite , in their unbridled love of atheism and the bold idea that God is Dead.

What was celebrated as a new, counter culture idea, by the MSM, was really the death of atheism in popular North American society. It had already eaten dust as 1967 rolled in, culminating in what could be considered a US version of an ancient fertility cult. Free love, drugs, peace and flower power.

This of course evolved into the Jesus movement, as well as many splinters of a theist outlook contrasting to the view of Time Magazine, the MSM of the time and of course part of the MSM now.

While many `top down driven ideologies" prospered among those who intermingled with the elite the bubbling counter culture scattered its core bottom up belief system of peace and love ...evolving into family (reflected via All in the Family, MASH to Happy Days to Cosby Show and so on) values, stability, prosperity exibited in the election of ReagenéBush in contrast to Jimmy Carter...who via his example lived out a lot of the idealistic fashions of 1967.

It did not quit turn out as it was thought by some from the Baby Boomer generation so now we are again grasping onto 18th century atheist thought...coming into a peak baby boomer angst.

Who, what, are we? Why is everything so screwed up?

It is 1966 all over again.

The question is this?

How will this Phi abstract of emote, purpose and meaning manifest itself in the next decade?

There are some, living now, who hold to a system of belief that an individuals every action can be predicted….right down to the idea that every man's action may be predicted including the rejection of the very idea that a man's action can be predicted.

I view these persons as modern scientific Calvinist’s.

All in all we are at the cusp of a new wave.

Whether it is the new wave in lieu of our own manifest or the new wave of evolution determination is the question?!!

Everything old is new again.


[edit on 9-8-2008 by whiteraven]

Their are many, evolved hippies, who no longer are involved with culture as we know it. These are some of the few who truly dropped out, tuned in and turned on. Unknown persons who live in this world....viewing it from an outsider’s perspective.....and they see the re-emergence of a spike in culture smelling of the very essence of 1967.

Nobody yet knows for sure...but like any seasoned surfer they see the wave building......

For reference I like to look at the antithesis of Nazi culture.

I would first look at some of the writings of those who survived the Holocaust.

It is important to see two extreme world views emerge from extreme suffering.

First, a person can look the writings and thoughts of Dr. Hennery Morgentaler...a recent receipetent of Canada’s Governed general award, a holocaust survivor and the leading abortionist in Canadian history.

Second, in contrast, one can read the writings of Elizabeth Kublar Ross...MD...a holocaust survivor...who suffered a very depilating stroke late in life....and yet she still contributed to the welfare of the human state of being.

(I reference Kublai Ross’s stroke lightly...yet it turned out to be proof of the very essence of the value of an individual even if they no longer could speak)

These two ideas in life, born of great suffering, reflect much of the human struggle we face this day.

In the spring of 1942, the triplets completed their public schooling. Unwilling to become a secretary, Kübler-Ross took jobs as a maid and laboratory assistant. At the end of World War II, she volunteered to work in several areas of war-torn Europe. In Poland, necessity compelled her to practice rudimentary medicine and she was deeply moved by the concentration camp at Maidanek where more than 300,000 people had died

Viktor Emil Frankl, M.D., Ph.D

Frankl was born in Vienna into a Jewish family of civil servants (Beamtenfamilie). His interest in psychology surfaced early. For the final exam (Matura) in Gymnasium, he wrote a paper on the psychology of philosophical thinking. After graduating from Gymnasium in 1923, he studied medicine at the University of Vienna and later specialized in neurology and psychiatry, concentrating on the topics of depression and suicide. He had personal contact with Sigmund Freud and Alfred Adler.
Prisoner, Therapist
On September 25, 1942 he, along with his wife and his parents were deported to the Theresienstadt concentration camp. Though assigned to ordinary labor details until the last few weeks of the war, Frankl (assisted by Dr. Leo Baeck and Regina Jonas among others) tried to cure fellow prisoners from despondency and prevent suicide. He worked in the psychiatric care ward, headed the neurological clinic in block B IV, established and maintained a camp service of psychic hygiene and mental care for sick and those who were weary of life. Frankl at Theresienstadt also gave lectures on topics like Sleep and Its Disturbances, Body and Soul, Medical Care of Soul, Psychology of Mountaineering, Rax and Schneeberg, How I keep my nerves healthy, Existential Problems in Psychotherapy, Social Psychotherapy. On 29/07/43 he organized a closed event of the Scientific Society entitled Life-Exhaustion & Life-Courage in Terezin. The title of his lecture on 25/01/44 was "Of special persons: Experiences of a Neurologist", and his last lecture known about in Terezin on 14/06/44 he had called "Protection of Mental Health". Additionally he described The "mental health service" of Terezin in a "Yearly Report", the first one from October 1942-October 1943. [2] He writes in section Sick People's Care Service

“ Preventive and hospital care. Based on the advice of a Theresienstadt veteran psychiatrist and neurologist, a center for "psychic hygiene" or "mental health" was established under the auspices of the Social Care Dept. It was hoped that it would began functioning as early as spring 1942, but it only became reality in the beginning of November as the "Sick People's Care Service" ”

Since it was forbidden to actively intervene in a suicide attempt, such activity had to be both preventative and clandestine.[3] Then, on October 19, 1944, he was transported to Auschwitz, and some days later [4] to Türkheim, a concentration camp not far from Dachau where he arrived the 25th of October 1944. Meanwhile, his wife had been transferred to the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp, where she died; his father and mother had been sent to Auschwitz from Theresienstadt and died there as well.

On April 27, 1945, Frankl was liberated by the Americans. Among his immediate relatives, the only survivor was his sister, who had escaped by emigrating to Australia.

It was due to his and others' suffering in these camps that he came to his hallmark conclusion that even in the most absurd, painful and dehumanized situation, life has potential meaning and that therefore even suffering is meaningful. This conclusion served as a strong basis for Frankl's logotherapy. Another important conclusion of Frankl was:

“ If a prisoner felt that he could no longer endure the realities of camp life, he found a way out in his mental life - an invaluable opportunity to dwell in the spiritual domain, the one that the SS were unable to destroy. Spiritual life strengthened the prisoner, helped him adapt, and thereby improved his chances of survival. ”

Man's Search for Meaning, p. 123

Holocaust activities
In 1940, the Nazis invaded the Netherlands and banned Ten Boom's club. In 1942, she and her family had become very active in the Dutch underground, hiding refugees. They rescued many Jews from certain death at the hands of the Nazi SS. They helped Jews because of their veneration for God's Chosen People (though the Ten Boom family was known for their gracious character towards all--especially the handicapped), and even provided kosher food and honored the Sabbath. Corrie's family were strong Christians. She and her family resided at Barteljorisstraat 19, Haarlem, Holland.


[edit] Harboring refugees
In May 1942, a well-dressed woman came to the Ten Boom door with a suitcase in hand. Nervously, she told Ten Boom that she was a Jew and that her husband had been arrested several months before, and her son had gone into hiding. Occupation authorities had recently visited her, and she was too fearful to return home. After hearing about how they had helped the Weils, she asked if she might stay with them, and Corrie ten Boom's father readily agreed. A devoted reader of the Old Testament, Casper ten Boom believed Jews were indeed "the chosen," and told the woman, "In this household, God's people are always welcome." quoteen.wikipedia.org...


It may be very important to the many subculture groups to raise a voice in light of the beliefs of those who contend an materialistic outlook....
Jews, Slavs, Soviet POWs, Ethnic Poles, South and East Slavs, Roma, Disabled and mentally ill, Gay men, Freemasons and Jehovah's Witnesses, Political activists and the like need to be aware of recent history with the view of taking heed.


The above is written in terms of an analogy in reference to:

Mankind evolves as both wave and particle.



[edit on 9-8-2008 by whiteraven]

en.wikipedia.org...

Morgentaler was born in Łódź to Golda Nikita and Josef Morgentaler. His father was active in the Jewish Socialist Labour Bund. Following the German capture of Poland, Josef Morgentaler was arrested and killed by the Gestapo. During the Holocaust, Morgentaler lived with his mother and brother in the Łódź ghetto until 1944, when he was detained and sent to Auschwitz. Following his release, weighing just 70 pounds, he accepted a United Nations scholarship that was being offered to Jewish survivors. He went to medical school in Germany while living with a German family that was forced to house him under the program.[2]

en.wikipedia.org... orekrfoundation.org...

Elisabeth Kübler was born on July 8, 1926, the first of three daughters born that day to a middle class family in Zurich, Switzerland. In her autobiography The Wheel of Life: A Memoir of Living and Dying (1997), Kübler-Ross commented: "For me, being a triplet was a nightmare. I would not wish it on my worst enemy. I had no identity apart from my sisters. . . . It was a heavy psychological weight to carry around." However, as an adult she concluded that the circumstances of her birth "were what gave me the grit, determination and stamina for all the work that lay ahead" and throughout her autobiography she describes herself as independent, unconventional, opinionated, and stubborn (Kübler-Ross 1997, p. 25).

somehow my first post became my last..!!!!wierd.

And to try and somehow sum up things before I need to leave for a pressing engagement.....

extreme suffering presents extreme views....some are thieist..others are athiest....with much in between....we see the spike of belief systems and can document the spikes as never before.....those outside the ``fishtank`see a cycle...those inside believe they are on the cusp of something new.

The reality will be that we are the simply evolving.

Change may be a term that catches the frame of mind of persons living now.


[edit on 9-8-2008 by whiteraven]

reply to post by Spiramirabilis

Thank you, Spiramirabilis, for your thoughtful response to my post.

Among the things you mentioned, I was particularly struck by this:

the part that I think is so interesting - is your apparent awe and wonder at the complexity of the human mind - and your statement that we've only just begun to scratch the surface

why not wonder at what more it can do - what more it may be - and admit that you've chosen not to contemplate it?

I fear I am a more hopeless case than you imagine. My awe and wonder are real, not apparent, but they are not excited by the complexity of the human mind, but of the human brain. I am not at all convinced that mind exists.

As for choosing not to contemplate what more this (to me) hypothetical mind can do, I did not become a scientific materialist overnight. I have had my fill of religion and spirituality. I don't believe there's a base I haven't covered. I'm South Asian: Buddhism and Hinduism are heavily represented in my cultural background, as is the Christianity I was born into. I used to have a strong interest in comparative religion, which I have pursued in my own country as well as in India and the Far East. As for mysticism, it was an interest and (as it turns out - again, for me) hopeless pursuit throughout my early twenties.

I have contemplated what more the 'mind' might do for many years. This is where I am now: there is no mind.

Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by Spiramirabilis

 

Thank you, Spiramirabilis, for your thoughtful response to my post.

Among the things you mentioned, I was particularly struck by this:

the part that I think is so interesting - is your apparent awe and wonder at the complexity of the human mind - and your statement that we've only just begun to scratch the surface

why not wonder at what more it can do - what more it may be - and admit that you've chosen not to contemplate it?

I fear I am a more hopeless case than you imagine. My awe and wonder are real, not apparent, but they are not excited by the complexity of the human mind, but of the human brain. I am not at all convinced that mind exists.

As for choosing not to contemplate what more this (to me) hypothetical mind can do, I did not become a scientific materialist overnight. I have had my fill of religion and spirituality. I don't believe there's a base I haven't covered. I'm South Asian: Buddhism and Hinduism are heavily represented in my cultural background, as is the Christianity I was born into. I used to have a strong interest in comparative religion, which I have pursued in my own country as well as in India and the Far East. As for mysticism, it was an interest and (as it turns out - again, for me) hopeless pursuit throughout my early twenties.

I have contemplated what more the 'mind' might do for many years. This is where I am now: there is no mind.

:-)

that is one of the most genuine responses I've heard

thank you for that

this is one of the reasons these types of conversations are meaningful to me - because it's not about being right, or being wrong - or proving anything

some things can't be proven

and I seriously believe that if you could - whatever it is would only change and hide - again

It's about understanding where people are coming from - it all counts

you're not actually afraid you're hopeless :-)

I can see that - I like that line a lot

you know what you know

a naturalist then? I've actually known more than a few - nice tidy minds :-)

and some of my best friends

just to yank your chain - what if the afterlife is a natural part of the natural world?

and briefly off topic - is that the elephant that recognized herself?

your avatar says a lot

reply to post by Astyanax


it just occurred to me -

mysticism - again - no mind - just brain

I'm very, very interested