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Originally posted by Heike
Well, I can certainly agree with that. After bad experiences trying to work for big and small businesses, I got so disgusted that I now choose to work for a nonprofit. It puts me in a very low income bracket, but at least I can feel good about my job because we actually help people.
Perhaps in some respects I am only a product of the propaganda. I keep thinking I've heard somewhere that, if overall human population growth continues at its current rate, we will exceed the Earth's ability to feed us in the fairly near future.
Or, perhaps, it is only that our cities and towns and farms will overrun all arable or livable land and there will be no forests, rainforests, jungles, or wildlife left.
I understand that humans are supposed to be more important than plants and animals, but I personally would still see that as a tragedy.
I agree with you about societal trends too, especially in the USA. I've escaped to the boonies and have my ten acres and intend to work on becoming self-sufficient. I'm tired; I've given up on fighting to change the world and I'm just trying to survive in it now.
I think the Native Americans had the right idea; live with nature and be part of it, and naturally limit your population to what the land can sustain. But it's too late for most of us to go back to that now.
PS I, too, enjoy civilized discussion and debate. I get annoyed now and then, but seldom get angry and even then I try to remain courteous and polite. The worst I usually do is a bit of sarcasm, but most adults can take that - and respond in kind.
Originally posted by Essan
I'd call that common sense!
Trouble is, as soon as you start suggesting those on welfare/social security shouldn't be able to have a dozen children - all paid for out of our taxes - you start getting called a nazi or some such.
Personally I believe bearing children should be a privilege not a right - a privilege anyone can readily earn should they wish.
The fact I have no paternal instincts whatsover may however make me a little biased on this subject!
Originally posted by Heike
I did also probably hint or imply that I think people shouldn't have kids they can't support. Yes, that is how I feel and I will stand by it. If a person or family doesn't have enough resources to feed, clothe, and shelter a(nother) child, they shouldn't have a(nother) child.
Originally posted by OhZone
Here we go again with all these folks who thing that humans can just go on breeding forever. That the next generation will surely have the majical answer to how to do it. Maybe they can make the Earth larger.
In the meantime all our waters are polluted with toxic chemicals.
All our waters are polluteted with animal and human feces.
No one has yet figured out what to do with all the garbage collected.
No one has figured out how to disintigrate all this garbage into something that is non polluting.
No one has figured out how to process human and animal feces so as notto pollute the water and the air.
Originally posted by StellarX
The best way to control population sizes is to give women economic rights as well as education enough to allow them to take independent action; there are very few women that actually wants to go trough more than 1 or two pregnancies. In wealthier western societies where women's rights are protected as well as men's right they are experiencing problems with declining populations because of this.
Originally posted by Heike
Not exactly. When resources become scarce, animals begin to compete for the resources (like food and water). Competition can be violent, even among normally placid species.
The weaker animals begin to succumb to injuries, illness, and malnutrition.
When a sufficient percentage of the population has died, there is again enough food for the stronger survivors and the population stabilizes at a lower number.
Hmm.. where are you getting your figures from? I'm finding a lot of information that says just the opposite.
Human Overpopulation
Human Population Crisis
That's just a couple. There are dozens more if you want them ....
Overpopulation is not population density (amount of people per landmass), but rather the number of people in an area relative to its resources and the capacity of the environment to sustain human activities.
www.cosmosmith.com...
Besides, if our population continues to increase at the current exponential rate, we will have 2 to 3 times as many people in the not very distant future.
Here we go again with all these folks who thing that humans can just go on breeding forever. That the next generation will surely have the majical answer to how to do it. Maybe they can make the Earth larger.
In the meantime all our waters are polluted with toxic chemicals.
All our waters are polluteted with animal and human feces.
No one has yet figured out what to do with all the garbage collected.
No one has figured out how to disintigrate all this garbage into something that is non polluting.
No one has figured out how to process human and animal feces so as notto pollute the water and the air.
And yet you defend you assumed "right" to reproduce.
"Who" you say, "will decide who has children and who does not"
With just a wee bit of smarts anyone shoud be able to figure out if they are fit to reproduce.
Isn't it obvious to you that there are millions of people with heritable defects that should be sterilized Right Now?
When you look in the mirror can you honestly say that you want your children to look like you do?
And so is intelligence.
Do you honestly think that mental retards should reproduce?
"Oh", you say, "but they might have a normal child".
Well so what? Why does the world need that when there are healthy, intelligent beautiful people who can fill any percieved gap in the population numbers.
And then we have the clueless who suggest that cities be built in places where there are none today. LIke the "badlands" I guess. Just goes to show you have not done much traveling.
You be the first to put up a cabin ok?
The best way to control population sizes is to give women economic rights as well as education enough to allow them to take independent action; there are very few women that actually wants to go trough more than 1 or two pregnancies. In wealthier western societies where women's rights are protected as well as men's right they are experiencing problems with declining populations because of this.
TheRedNeck, Yes, obviously animals are being overbred to feed overbred humans. You are unaware of the problem with the hog farms in the Carolinas after the flooding from the hurricanes?
Sorry about your chocolate bar. I guess you want a single wrapper that may come open on the bottom for others to finger. Would you settle for 2 wrappers?
Yes, it takes a long time for stuff to rot. Evidently we are producing it faster than it can rot, else it would not be a problem. How do you plan to make it rot faster.
As to rotting human feces – see above. 2 years and we would all need composting toilets or some sort of collection bin and of course collectors. Actually this would be a great idea for our present population. It could help solve our depleted soil problem too. There is a guy that has a website on “humanure” that says you can do it in your urban or suburban back yard without an odor problem, just by stacking it with straw or moss. I haven’t had the courage to try it.
What should be sterilized? The person(s) having and producing defective offspring. Yes, heritable weak eyes would be good to eliminate, don’t you think? If you had inherited really weak eyes, how would you feel about giving them to your children?
Really Redneck, you needn’t get carried away with the “birthmarks” remark. You know full well what I am saying, and just what a debilitating defect is. I would not want a mentally retarded child. Do you think they should reproduce more of themselves? Why do we need such a burden on society?
Yes, I live. I am healthy and self responsible. I ask nothing from anyone. If I’d had a hair lip or buckteeth or whatever heritable defect, I would feel very guilty and ashamed that I had passed it on to my children.
Every child has a right to a healthy beautiful body.
So I am selfish because I think that it is cruel to bring defective children into this world?
You don’t want your kids to look like you. Well lucky them. They didn’t inherit from you.
If you are offended that is your problem. You are under no obligation to be offended at anything anyone says – ever.
Yes, what’s the point? The world would have been ok without them. Another would have taken their place. Your suggestion here – an oft used one, is fallacious.
Some of them are. Ever here of City Planning? They do a really lousy job tho.
We breed horses to run faster. We breed chickens to lay more eggs. We breed dogs for literally hundreds of different characteristics, and we KNOW it works. You can't look at the difference between a wolf and a chihuahua and tell me it doesn't. In fact, we use selective breeding to influence or improve every single species that we control - except our own.
Why is that? Why is there a tidal wave of outrage and disgust when anyone suggests that we use a proven technique to improve our own species?
If we took basic attributes such as good health, no inheritable/genetic diseases, and intelligence and just tried to sway the numbers in favor of people who have these attributes having children and those who don't, not, we could give future generations better health and a higher average intelligence. What is so wrong with that?
It is patently ridiculous to say that something which does not yet exist has any "rights." Perhaps every child conceived has a right to live, but a child which might be born in the future if two people get together and conceive it is only an idea, a possibility. It is nowhere close enough to existence to have any "rights."
Or are you saying, as many do, that every human being has an inalienable right to reproduce? If so, I disagree, and have for as long as I can remember. When a horse carries the lethal HYPP gene, or a particular dog bloodline has hip dysplasia, we understand that they shouldn't reproduce. Why doesn't the same tried-and-true logic apply to humans?
Redneck, I wasn’t attacking all farms. I was pointing out the problem associated with the 50 billion population some of you want.
Yes, I do dare (that’s what I do. I say what others dare not think) to take the stance that responsible people do not inflict their problems upon their children. Perhaps you daughter’s matrix of energy would have had a chance to be born elsewhere and have perfect eyes. Wouldn’t she have had a better life that way? If you inherited your weak eyes, you must have suspected that you could pass the defect on.
I am unaware of birth marks being heritable.
For so long as defective people breed, we will have defective children. There are over 4000 + heritable defects in humans. Isn’t it time we did something serious about this. Have you any idea how many people there are in special care homes because there is no way that they can ever care for themselves? Do you think that it is right that they should suffer so because of careless breeding? Do you think that society should be burdended with them? Don’t you think that the services of their caregivers could be better used elsewhere?
Your right to life includes life long suffering. You must not know anyone who has had to live in a defective body. They suffer their whole lives and and many wish were dead.
Is there something wrong with having a vision of a perfect world? Don’t you wish every one did? Why wish for less? Why accept less if you can make it better?
The offence is still your creation. If you like that feeling have at it. Seek and ye shall find. My candid statements were not offensive in and of themselves. They are letters strung together into symbols/words to which we each give meaning according to our experience & expectation. You gave them your own meaning. You must have DECIDED to take them personally, which is entirely your choice. I have noticed that you are pretty outspoken yourself. You don’t mince words or make apologies. So far so good. One more bridge to cross and you will have learned the meaning of self-mastry.
Your definition of my selfishness sounds very much like defensive fear on your part.
Originally posted by Heike
reply to post by StellarX
Your logic and your point of view are good, except for one thing. Your entire position is based on the fallacy that human beings are as you think they should be. Your view of humanity is unrealistic and idealistic, in my opinion. Someday your rose-colored glasses may break, and if I am there when they do I will not even say "I told you so." That is more compassion and empathy than you will get from most people.
Most of the people I know, and have known, would not work if they didn't have to. If a society or a community allows all members to share equally in the resources of the entire community, most of the work will be done by a few people and the rest will do the absolute minimum to get by.
I have worked all my life to get a home of my own and a small piece of land. If I couldn't do that, if I couldn't acquire the comfort, privacy and amenities that I want by working for them, what would be the point? For the "greater good"? Yeah, right. When other people start caring about the greater good I'll start thinking about it. As long as most of the people around me continue to be selfish and greedy, I must have a similar outlook in order to survive.
It's called empathy and it takes a great deal of propaganda and schooling in general to rob people of it.
Quite the opposite. Young children have no empathy at all. You have to teach them to share, teach them that it is wrong to hurt others, teach them to accept not getting everything they want immediately when they want it. As much as you may not like it, selfishness and greed ARE human nature. Humans were selfish and greedy back when they lived in caves and whacked each other with clubs over hunting territories and women, and they are still greedy and selfish today, capitalists or not.
Because more people means more brains and unless misdirected more intelligence is always a good thing as it simply enables more productive output
What intelligence? Where is it? I don't see it. A tiny percentage of the population is responsible for all of the advances of humanity. The rest can barely think their way out of a cardboard box, let alone their reality box. In order for more brains to increase productivity, people have to actually use them. Most people don't.
In a perfect world populated with Mother Teresas, you'd be right. But it's not a perfect world, and Mother Teresa was an exception, not the rule.
To me, it's just another indication that, in spite of all the big talk to the contrary, most people don't care about anything except their own wants and desires.
Originally posted by Heike
Your logic and your point of view are good, except for one thing. Your entire position is based on the fallacy that human beings are as you think they should be.
Your view of humanity is unrealistic and idealistic, in my opinion. Someday your rose-colored glasses may break, and if I am there when they do I will not even say "I told you so." That is more compassion and empathy than you will get from most people.
Most of the people I know, and have known, would not work if they didn't have to.
If a society or a community allows all members to share equally in the resources of the entire community, most of the work will be done by a few people and the rest will do the absolute minimum to get by.
I have worked all my life to get a home of my own and a small piece of land. If I couldn't do that, if I couldn't acquire the comfort, privacy and amenities that I want by working for them, what would be the point?
For the "greater good"? Yeah, right. When other people start caring about the greater good I'll start thinking about it.
As long as most of the people around me continue to be selfish and greedy, I must have a similar outlook in order to survive.
Quite the opposite. Young children have no empathy at all.
You have to teach them to share,
teach them that it is wrong to hurt others,
teach them to accept not getting everything they want immediately when they want it.
As much as you may not like it, selfishness and greed ARE human nature.
Humans were selfish and greedy back when they lived in caves and whacked each other with clubs over hunting territories and women, and they are still greedy and selfish today, capitalists or not.
What intelligence? Where is it?
I don't see it. A tiny percentage of the population is responsible for all of the advances of humanity.
The rest can barely think their way out of a cardboard box, let alone their reality box. In order for more brains to increase productivity, people have to actually use them. Most people don't.
In a perfect world populated with Mother Teresas, you'd be right. But it's not a perfect world, and Mother Teresa was an exception, not the rule.