Who is behind climate change deniers?

Earth needs to fully industrialize all of it's nations. They could burn fossil fuels to help with our situation - that being Earth is Carbon starved, and had levels tens times as high as they are currently.

Industrializing Africa would dramatically lower the Birth rate as it has in the Western World.

The increased Carbon emissions would contribute to a massive growth of Biomass in both flora and fauna.

Grazing animals would grow larger as the plants they feed on produce more food. In turn the animals who feed on those grazers would have a larger food supply to support a larger, healthier population...

The newly industrialized nations would soon develop effective health care systems reducing the need to have 6 children in the hopes that one or two survives to adulthood... These children would then grow up in a modern society and have 1.4 children and an accordant drop in birth rate would
ensue.
Barring massive immigration, Nations that have done this have experienced Negative Population Growth and must rely on immigrants to maintain it's current population levels...
Canada is a perfect Example of this. Look up their policies on immigration.

Yes...but like i said before..a.summing man made global warming is a real phenomena...say we cut emmissions by 70% or so tomorrow...how long does that halt the process?

A nice short read about some of the mythology behind Carbon Dioxide as destructive agent in it's current 'abundance'.

Earth's atmosphere today contains about 370 ppm CO2 (0.037%). Compared to former geologic times, our present atmosphere, like the Late Carboniferous atmosphere, is CO2- impoverished! In the last 600 million years of Earth's history only the Carboniferous Period and our present age, the Quaternary Period, have witnessed CO2 levels less than 400 ppm

There has historically been much more CO2 in our atmosphere than exists today. For example, during the Jurassic Period (200 mya), average CO2 concentrations were about 1800 ppm or about 4.8 times higher than today. The highest concentrations of CO2 during all of the Paleozoic Era occurred during the Cambrian Period, nearly 7000 ppm -- about 19 times higher than today.

The Carboniferous Period and the Ordovician Period were the only geological periods during the Paleozoic Era when global temperatures were as low as they are today. To the consternation of global warming proponents, the Late Ordovician Period was also an Ice Age while at the same time CO2 concentrations then were nearly 12 times higher than today-- 4400 ppm. According to greenhouse theory, Earth should have been exceedingly hot. Instead, global temperatures were no warmer than today. Clearly, other factors besides atmospheric carbon influence earth temperatures and global warming

ff.org...

For those with a bit more time you might want to attempt finding out in which geological age scientist think the earth were richest ( by volume) in biota and then correlate that with the Carbon dioxide levels at that time...

It would be very interesting to see how Bioto volumes correlates to carbon dioxide and oxygen levels.

Stellar


PS: Thank you for your post, TruthTellist; easily one of the five best posts i have seen here in six months. Why it is so hard to convince the peakers ( oil) and doomers( environment) that development and industrialization will save us all i am not always sure but i am glad that there are a growing number of us that will propose this as solution to saving that very same environment.



[edit on 3-8-2008 by StellarX]

Originally posted by whatsup
I agree with the OP. There are folks so hell bent on disproving climate change that it makes you wonder what the hell is going on with that.

perhaps we (including you) have a vital and urgent interest in averting the desaster that is the AGW religion and its implications before it gets too much of a foothold? beware the slippery slope. have you ever contemplated that you just might be wrong? of course not.

so, maybe you're the ones receiving the big buxx from 'carbon traders' like El Gore last time i've heard he was making plenty off this scam alone. there've been dozens of threads which included lots of contradicting evidence, like

www.abovetopsecret.com...

only the likes of you don't care. you can be refuted one day and even acknowledge defeat (rarely, though, most of the time the thread just dies to be started again in a weeks time by another AGWer) and next thing you know, they do the very same thing on another forum, another subforum on ATS or just the same place, once some grass has grown over the issue.

in case you missed my last post:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

subject matter is only the means of shoving this pseudo-utopian, anti-industrial ideology down our throats. once it becomes ineffective, the topic is quickly changed. f-ex. therea appear to be efforts underwy which focus on increased acidity of ocean water, rather than global warming through carbon dioxide. gotta keep scarecrows in reserve, remember.

PS: i know darned well you won't even bother to read through the thread i linked (1st link), i'm just posting it for lurkers and such.

[edit on 2008.8.3 by Long Lance]

originally posted by manson_322

"originally posted by manson_322"
lol, we have so much propaganda from NWO ,USa and oil companies in denying climate change , but the truth is exposed that USA/West are responsible for global warming and that now your nations must pay carbon tax to UN and developing countries as compensation for the harms inflicted upon them thanks to Global warming .....

next, we need a SUV tax on americans , who drive inefficient crappy SUV V8 monster engine garbage , Americans and their inefficient SUVs and industries are responsible for pollution

It's interesting that you continually blame the USA/West. You're starting to sound like a radical Muslim bent on destruction of the west. The best part is though, is you don't consider natural CO2 output like: animal farts (to put simply), and volcanic activity. Natural CO2 emissions can't be ruled out and you most definitely can't rule out eastern countries. China for example:
Full Article

Unless China finds a way to clean up its coal plants and the thousands of factories that burn coal, pollution will soar both at home and abroad. The increase in global-warming gases from China's coal use will probably exceed that for all industrialized countries combined over the next 25 years, surpassing by five times the reduction in such emissions that the Kyoto Protocol seeks.

Even then you have India right behind China. (these facts have also been stated in earlier posts.)

please prove it , as massive evidence shows that GW is not a farce , and by the way has USA signed the Kyoto Protocol ??? no, it has not

We already have laid down proof, apparently you missed some posts or something. The only one that hasn't laid down evidence for their case is you. You keep citing the exact same source that only says that there is a "consensus" among scientists that humans are destroying the earth and deserve to be taxed to death. Is "climate change" happening, sure I can agree with that, but is it entirely the fault of the US? Not even close. There's still speculation on whether Temperature change is dependent on CO2 levels or if CO2 levels are dependent on temperature change.

DO YOUR RESEARCH NOOB,,,,, THE WHOLE SYSTEMS HEATING UP...Hense the caps on mars melting...

were entering 2012

reply to post by manson_322
Ah, the OP has returned. And not one single solitary mention of my 'unproven' facts. Exactly when are you going to at least answer me as to what in my original response you want proof on?

All you have to do is tell me your question, and I will provide the answer. I'm not asking for any links, or research, or explanations even. Just a simple clarification. How long does that take?

You seem bent on repeating that one tired article, which has no facts save how some people paid others to say something, and how some people think something. Please, how is that science? How is an opinion fact? You berated some quick links from wikipedia that I included in my post, yet your 'news source' has absolutely no evidence in it outside of 'he said, she said'. At least wiki has some basis in fact, although I wouldn't consider it the final authority alone.

Perhaps you are hoping I will go away and leave you to your delusions in peace. Well, that may happen sporatically, as no doubt everyone on here (over the age of 16) has other things in life that take them away from the keyboard at times. I do as well. But rest assured, this page will remain open while the machine hibernates in my absence, and upon my return, I will be right here again.

I said it before; I'll say it again. Put up or shut up. I'm not going away.

TheRedneck

Pardon this ignorant poster, but when did man-made climate change become a proven fact? I think it's rediculous that those who believe in this theory, and it is just a theory, act as though the debate is over and that they have been proven right.

I have seen compelling evidence on BOTH sides of this debate. And I have yet to make up my mind. I think everyone agrees that the Earth is warming, despite the misleading and unfair label of "global warming-deniers" created by environmentalists. But what has yet to be proven is whether this is the cause of man and greenhouse gases, or whether it is a natural environmental cycle that was going to happen whether we were here or not. The evidence of massive warming on other planets in our solar system would seem to support this notion.

I just feel it is completely disingenuous to act like it is a proven fact that man has caused global warming. And I am disturbed by the radical nature of many of these individuals who have drawn such a conclusion, some of whom have equated their opponents to "Holocaust-deniers".

People, this debate is far from over. In fact, it has only just begun. And before you label me some right-wing, big oil-supporter, you should know that I am not on anyone's side. I am simply on the sidelines as I look at ALL of the evidence... something that I recommend everyone do with an open mind. And I agree that we need to reduce and eliminate greenhouse gasses and other forms of pollution, but not for "climate change" reasons.

But I strongly urge those on both sides to refrain from declaring this debate over and their beliefs a factual conclusion.

I don't know who is behind it or if indeed it is a man made problem but I know that the last 3 summers in a row in the UK have been absolutely w**k.

Originally posted by spitefulgod
I don't know who is behind it or if indeed it is a man made problem but I know that the last 3 summers in a row in the UK have been absolutely w**k.

The summers have been warmer on EVERY planet in the solar system.

Don't worry, it's not your fault.

Originally posted by philjwolf
reply to post by manson_322

 

What is this term climate change suppose to mean?? Dont get me wrong.. but the only thing Ive been hearing about is global warming... Is this climate change (term)... taking the place of global warming??? and why??

Also, the term "climate change denier" is being used to equate those who don't believe that global warming is caused by humans with holocaust deniers..clever..but, if they were telling the truth, tactics like that wouldn't be needed. they're lying.

reply to post by dragonseeker


I have a better term.

Global warming heretic! You heathen! Dost thou not believe in anthropogenic global warming?! Confess!

Never mind. Snows always melt.
The climate always changes. On our way in the Universe we had never ben twice in the same place.
But if you care about the specific ways of distribution of that pesky green sheets of paper with portraits of bearded and bold Americans, you should realise -- that affairs have nothing with climate change. Climate is a big thing ;-) It is bigger than all of the land masses and that very thin layer where life on Earth resides.

[edit on 3-8-2008 by mahasvin]

reply to post by Dienekes


Hehe. You forgot to mention cows. They, that coward poo-generators, are responsible for global warming. In fact, Latvia and Estonia endorsed special legislation, taxing farmers for cow's farts. This will eliminate the rest of cattle farming in that poor Baltic countries and will make a better market for Swedish, Danish and German products there.

reply to post by manson_322


Have you ever stopped to wonder why climate scientists, who receive all their funding pretty much because of the GW hoax, are about the only scientists who buy their garbage?

You don't need a degree in climatology to see through the charade pretty quickly. I'll give you a few quick things to look at.

One, compare temperatures from weather stations that were rural in 1850 and are rural now. Most of the "warming" data is manufactured from using temps from highly urban areas and comparing them to the 1850 rural temps. Of course those locals are warmer now! There's a lot of waste heat in the localized area. Nothing to do with the climate as a whole.

Two, check out this great thing called the sun. It does some amazing things, like warm our planet. And the rest of the solar system, which has also experienced fluctuations in temps of late.

Three, check the latest temp trends. If it were a true greenhouse effect, there should be no dips, but just a steady rise. And yes, I know all the climate models that have been trumped up to fit data; but you know what? If i wanted to make a computer model showing that the earth would be overrun by rabid, fire-breathing chipmunks, I could. Computer models are only as good as the data fed into them, and will reflect the bias of the person who set the model parameters in the first place.

I could go on with a lot more, give you facts and figures and whatnot, but Id rather you look for yourself and hopefully new information might give you a new perspective.

The lovely part of these threads by manson are the US bashing in all of them. No matter what ills in the world, no matter what war, inhuman suffering, disease epidemics, weather apostrophe or hangnails, they can all be blamed on the US according to him. As for the posts by TheRedneck, good job, excellent research on them and very well informed.

Panel warns on Great Barrier Reef

The reef is a huge tourist attraction
Australia's famous Great Barrier Reef could be dead within decades because of the effects of global warming, according to a leaked report.
The report, from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), warns that the reef's coral could be bleached because of warmer seas.

IPCC scientists are meeting in Paris, and are due to release the first stage of their findings on Friday.

The Barrier Reef is Australia's leading tourist destination.

The draft comments, obtained by The Age newspaper, come from the second report which the IPCC will publish this year, dealing with impacts of climate change; the first reviews the overall scientific picture.

'Functionally extinct'

GREAT BARRIER REEF
More than 2,000 km long
Home to 1,500 types of fish
Only living thing the naked eye can see from space
The draft document warns that the Great Barrier Reef will become "functionally extinct" because of coral bleaching - which occurs when the animal organisms that make up the coral die, leaving behind a white limestone skeleton.

Bleaching occurs regularly during periods when water becomes unusually warm.

Many reefs in East Asia declined significantly during the El Nino conditions in 1997/8; it can take a decade for coral to start recovering from severe bleaching.

But in the future, the Barrier Reef may not have the chance to recover, scientists warn, as temperatures continue to rise and the sea becomes more acidic. This raises the risk that the coral will die outright.

The reef attracts a million visitors a year, and is home to sharks, turtles and numerous brightly coloured fish.

so i guess i can tell the reef to stop accepting money from lobby groups and to stop pretending its dying, the water isnt really warming, its just the actual reef being pedantic or perhaps its trying to destroy the global econemy?

Farewell to Cute Koala Bears
Australia’s Climate Action Network reports that higher temperatures are killing off eucalyptus trees while higher levels of CO2 in the atmosphere are decreasing the nutritional value of the eucalyptus leaves Koala bears eat. They warn that the cute furry creatures could become extinct in the next few decades.

silly bears were on to em now

wow, this is amazing .... , the scepticism of climate change deniers ,
reminds people of the nazi holocoust deniers


look at USA:

The world's leading climate scientists have warned that there is now 30 percent more carbon dioxide—the primary global-warming gas—in the atmosphere than a century ago. The burning of fossil fuels is the primary source of this CO2 pollution. Over the same period of time, the average surface temperature of the earth has risen more than 1 degree Fahrenheit.

Due to these changes, we are already seeing signs of global warming. The 1990s was the hottest decade on record and the 11 hottest years on record have all occurred in the past 13 years.

Extreme drought conditions and changing rainfall patterns have occurred across the country, setting the stage for wildfires, which decimated areas from Florida to California. Record heat waves have killed hundreds in Chicago and infectious-disease outbreaks linked to global warming have sickened or killed hundreds from Texas to New York, shut down Disney World and re-introduced Americans to dengue fever, malaria and encephalitis. Sea levels have risen between four and 10 inches and glacial ice is rapidly retreating on five continents.

The world's leading scientists warn that over the 21st century, CO2 levels are expected to double, raising sea levels two feet or more, worsening smog and leaving our children to cope with a more hostile climate.

America's cars and light trucks alone produce nearly 20 percent of U.S. CO2 pollution. That's more than all but four countries worldwide! And transportation is the fastest-growing sector of global-warming pollution in the nation. Popular light trucks pump out 237 million tons of global-warming pollution into our atmosphere each year. That's because every gallon of gas burned emits 28 pounds of CO2 into the atmosphere.
www.sierraclub.org...

If you drive an SUV, then you’re "driving" global warming, even more than the rest of us. In Bangladesh people spent three months of 1998 living in the thigh-deep water that covered two-thirds of the nation. The inundation came because the Bay of Bengal was some inches higher than normal (as climate changes, sea level rises because warm water takes up more space). That high water blocked the drainage of the normal summer floods, turning the nation into a vast lake. No one can say exactly how much higher that water was because of our recent fondness for semi-military transport in the suburbs. Maybe an inch, who knows? But the connection is clear. If you care about the people in this world living closest to the margins, then you need to do everything in your power to slow the rate at which the planet warms, for they are the most vulnerable. I was naked and you did not clothe me. I was hungry and you drowned me with your Ford Explorer.
www.religion-online.org...

see , as the above source , the american people with their inefficient polluting SUV garbage are responsible for the deaths happening in third world countries , THEREBY BY DENYING GLOBAL WARMING , YOU NOT ONLY SUPPORT BIG OIL AND NWO , YOU ALSO DENY THE HOLOCAUST YOU(USA/WEST) HAVE COMMITTED ON ECOLOGY OF THE WORLD AND THE DEATHS YOU HAVE CAUSED DUE TO DISASTERS CAUSED BY GLOBAL WARMING

reply to post by manson_322


"wow, this is amazing .... , the scepticism of climate change deniers ,
reminds people of the nazi holocoust deniers

look at USA: see , as the above source , the american people with their inefficient polluting SUV garbage are responsible for the deaths happening in third world countries , THEREBY BY DENYING GLOBAL WARMING , YOU NOT ONLY SUPPORT BIG OIL AND NWO , YOU ALSO DENY THE HOLOCAUST YOU(USA/WEST) HAVE COMMITTED ON ECOLOGY OF THE WORLD AND THE DEATHS YOU HAVE CAUSED DUE TO DISASTERS CAUSED BY GLOBAL WARMING"


Post Condensed by TruthTellist who recommends that a new translator program be used by the offending member"

reply to post by Demandred


But didn't you read that about the reef? There is no SCIENCE that it will happen; there is SPECULATION by "climatologists." The same people who get TRILLIONS of dollars when they scare governments with these speculations.

The bit about koala's doesn't even really mention science. It mentions a few assumptions based on a belief in the GW religion. Still waiting for the science. Speculation, belief, and consensus are not science.