Shocking : American army morality

Originally posted by mf_luder


You don't have the authority to claim that every single one of us has no morals just because of something you read on CNN.

Just who are you addressing? Who is saying that the entire army has no morality based on these incidents? Are you just another coward that appologizes for rapists by lumping them with stats and FALSELY claiming that pointing it out when it happens is somehow attacking the group as a whole? Even in prison they know better than to appologize for rapists.

reply to post by Pericle


Pericle, I hope within your lifetime, you are the focus of some of the evil people that do indeed need killing with prejudice. I hope you have to pick up the innocent broken bodies that these folks have killed, just because they could.

May you experience first hand what really goes on out there.

Without anyone around to pull your ass out of the fire. In the precise environment you propose. All on your own.

reply to post by MorningStar8741


Who apologized for rapists?

The OP is claiming the ENTIRE Army has a lack of morals based off the actions of a few.

Read the OP.

He makes it quite clear what he thinks.

I don't apologize for those of us that do jacked up # - but it isn't all of us that do it.

Also, to directly answer your question - The "REPLY TO" portion of the post in question is who I was addressing.....

[edit on 19-10-2008 by mf_luder]

One side is fighting because they think they have the devine word of God, and they must force all people to live by what they claim is the devine word of God, and the other side is fighting for their freedom. This is the reality.

Either you are smart enough to realize that some things are worth fighting for, or you are a fool.

One side prosecutes women for seducing men into raping them, while the other side locks up men who rape women. Which side has horribly shocking morality?

Someone who has been there and done that Iraq trip a few times. I can tell you from experience that yes rapes in Iraq and Afghanistan happen. Just like everywhere else in the world. Both male on female and male on male rapes occur. It must also be noted that sex in a combat zone is illegal; which creates a problem in the validity of certain rape claims. If male and female soldiers are caught in the act of sex it violates General Order 1A which will result in an Article 15 or court martial both involved. Unless one of the parties decides that they would rather lie about the act of sex as being a rape than face non-judicial or judicial punishment. Many soldiers have worked hard to get where they are and do not want to ruin their career. I have also personally seen two female soldiers get pregnant in a combat zone by soldiers they were very friendly with on regular occasion you could say they were their “boyfriends”. Their pregnancy proves that those female soldiers violated GO1A, shortly thereafter rape charges were brought up on the female soldiers “boyfriends”. The females in question were sent home and later discharged from the Army honorably. I am in no way condoning rape. I just think that many of the posters on this thread just don’t have a clue about the elements and the obstacles involved with being a soldier or marine in Iraq or Afghanistan. Life is very different with the lack of modern conveniences, many of the freedoms American citizens are used to have been stripped away from soldiers. When was the last time the president of the United States told a common citizen that sex was illegal as well as having a beer or just telling someone that you don’t care for to F**K off. Compound that with combat, working 18 hours a day, missing your family and seeing things that regular car pooling, burger flipping and computer programming Americans just cannot understand, things that you will never forget. It’s not a news report; it’s not a war movie; for over 120,000 Americans at this very moment it is reality. Show some compassion to the soldiers and marines not every one of them believes in what is happening there. Many just didn’t know what to do with their lives, and somehow ended up being duped by a recruiter. Until they get discharged they have to do what they are told or they will be in Leavenworth making big rocks into small rocks. Don’t believe the all the hype you hear on T.V. and in the news media, it’s a dramatization of reality. Statistics can be faked.

reply to post by smoke screen


Thank you.

I've been twice. 03-04 and 05-06.

Doesn't it disgust you? I hate the world sometimes.

Star for you.

Hooah!

*This was a reply to smoke screen

I don't mean to speak for someone else, but think what he was suggesting was that not all our enemies that may need shooting are in foreign countries.

And that's a very good point.

I concur.

reply to post by mf_luder


Read it again. The OP does not state that every soldier lacks morals. He says that the entire system is without morals and unfortunately, no matter how much you want to argue, all millitary have a lack or morals. Anyone who's job is to kill, no matter the reason, justified or not, is not acting morally. There is no "in case" clause in the do not kill deally. He says the millitary has a morality problem and he is right. He does not say that every member of the millitary should be blamed for rapes.

Originally posted by LateApexer313
You know what makes me sick about a thread like this? To name a few things...how about Al Queda dragging the corpses of our soldiers through the streets of Iraq, burned, battered and tortured?

How about the beheading of a journalist on Arab television? How about the first capture of a female American military woman in Iraq, in a convoy, back broken, shot, stabbed and raped in an Iraqi hospital, having to be rescued by what was it, NAVY SEALS??

How about comparing the numbers of our soldier's wrongdoings compared to ANY guerrilla, insurgent, terrorist, or any other military force in the world????

Threads like this make me sick....

Your attitude makes me sick.....

What if it was you as an Iraq citizen and you were a regular Joe in Afghanistan you worked everyday fed your family and watched some evening news you kept to yourself stayed out of world affairs and kept far away from terrorist organizations.
Then one day the USA Was in your neighborhood spraying it with phosphorus weapons and killing your innocent neighbors and in the process your family dies.... and you live...
all because of affairs that do not pertain to your lifestyle, I would drag the killers through my streets to and kill everyone in my path of Wrath its human nature, or would you curl up and hide?



Back to topic soldiers are stripped of their morals in training they are trained to kill, they are trained to fight, they compete in killings some ever want to be the first soldier to kill a enemy.
you are just talking about American soldiers right?

[edit on 123131p://upMonday by seridium]

reply to post by seridium


Friend, you've watched too much sci-fi. Soldiers don't get brainwashed. Don't get "programmed." The military is not a 'Terminator' program.

You are who you are. You learn to work as a team, for the benefit of the team. The team is your life, and thus you will subordinate even your own survival instincts to preserve the life of another team member.

Competing for kills? Maybe. If the guys I'm serving in combat with aren't competitive, I don't want to be around them. You have to want to win. More than life, you have to want to win.

And when a guy misses an "easy" shot, yes, he will receive a bit of ribbing over that. Likewise, spectacular results are also valued.

You never even played sports, have you?

reply to post by seridium


The United States Military does not intentionally kill civilians. On the other hand Al Qaida does kill civilians. I have seen it with my own two eyes. I have also seen insurgents accidently kill themselves their wife and their children while trying to set up a road side bomb to kill soldiers. I have seen US soldiers come across scenes similar to this and render medical aid to the same people who going to try to kill them. Soldiers rushing wounded Iraqi civilians to field hospitals in Iraq and save their lives even if it was someone who was trying to kill them. Insurgents sharing a MEDEVAC chopper with soldiers he wounded in the first place. Insurgents praying on the poor in the area offering them $100 dollars to bury an IED on the road in plain sight of the military to see if they will shoot him or not, trying to evaluate our current rules of engagement in the area. Would you kidnap your neighbor’s family and then force them to wear a suicide vest into a crowded market under fear that you WILL execute them if they don’t? Al Qaida will. Don’t hate soldiers; hate the people that send them to war. I wish some of the people on ATS that hate soldiers so much would make the sacrifice of serving just for the sake of “research”. They could find out all the “big military secrets”.
As for soldiers being trained to kill absolutely they are, but only in the defense of their life or the life of a fellow soldier or civilian on the battlefield. If the insurgents spent as much ambition peacefully pleading their case to the Iraqi government for our withdrawal from Iraq we would be gone. They could spend the money they use for weapons on building hospitals and schools here instead of yours. The insurgency is a power struggle for Religious leadership. If we leave, Iraqis will keep killing Iraqis. Do I care about that? Not really. I’d rather just stay home, and enjoy what freedoms I have left in America before they are all gone. If I said I did care and want to fight for the people of Iraq and see that country peaceful and self sufficient. I would be moral and compassionate, but still supporting the war. It’s a lose-lose situation for everyone involved.


[edit on 20-10-2008 by smoke screen]

Originally posted by MorningStar8741

Originally posted by mf_luder


You don't have the authority to claim that every single one of us has no morals just because of something you read on CNN.

Just who are you addressing? Who is saying that the entire army has no morality based on these incidents? Are you just another coward that appologizes for rapists by lumping them with stats and FALSELY claiming that pointing it out when it happens is somehow attacking the group as a whole? Even in prison they know better than to appologize for rapists.

Okay - that's enough of this. I refuse to be drawn into an argument with you. I answered this post here.

In others I have posted, you apparently have the same problem identifying that I was responding to the posts of a certain member and I don't know, thought I was talking to you? Learn to read the entire post.

As for the Army - I approached a priest about this, not saying I'm entirely religious, but he explained to me that killing in defense of others is justified "in the bible". I don't know where you draw morals from, but I believe that as humans, we teach our children what we are taught regardless of whether we realize it or not. If our parents were raised believing Christian ideals, then as a result - we would recieve those same ideals from them.

I don't need you or anyone else to tell me that I'm immoral because I'm a soldier. I know it's so easy for you to sit wherever you are and say that about me - because let's face it. My job is high profile. Yours isn't. I do what I do because I believe in the American way of life and I love a democratic system. I am with a large group of people (the Army) who, for the most part, feel the same way. We are trained together, we live, eat, work, and train together and when the government tells us to go to war - we do that together as well.

Now. If our government tells us that the (insert country name, people, etc here) with guns who are shooting at us are the enemy, I of course am going to do everything in my power as a soldier to kill the (insert country name, people, etc) with guns. But you will not tell me that I kill "innocents".

You will not tell me my soldiers and friends "kill innocents".

You will not tell me that I rape and pillage.

You will not tell me that I'm doing something illegal by keeping my soldiers alive.

You, sir, will not sit at your desk wherever the hell you are and tell me that I'm IMMORAL.

If you truly believe there is nothing worth fighting for on this planet, if you truly believe you deserve a free ride from whatever government it is you live under, if you truly believe that we, as the US Army are evil and need to be "disbanded, thrown in jail", etc. Then you truly are lost. You and your ilk sicken me to no end.

So.

Since you don't know me. You have no right to tell me what I am or am not based off of the MSM you have access to. Based on the little videos you have access to. Based on the lies you have access to.

I tried to be polite to you when you couldn't identify who my replies were to. That time has passed. You sir, are now one of my "foes". I would appreciate you refraining from replying directly to anything I post in the future.

Thanks and good night.

Originally posted by smoke screen
reply to post by seridium

 

The United States Military does not intentionally kill civilians. On the other hand Al Qaida does kill civilians. I have seen it with my own two eyes. I have also seen insurgents accidently kill themselves their wife and their children while trying to set up a road side bomb to kill soldiers. I have seen US soldiers come across scenes similar to this and render medical aid to the same people who going to try to kill them. Soldiers rushing wounded Iraqi civilians to field hospitals in Iraq and save their lives even if it was someone who was trying to kill them. Insurgents sharing a MEDEVAC chopper with soldiers he wounded in the first place. Insurgents praying on the poor in the area offering them $100 dollars to bury an IED on the road in plain sight of the military to see if they will shoot him or not, trying to evaluate our current rules of engagement in the area. Would you kidnap your neighbor’s family and then force them to wear a suicide vest into a crowded market under fear that you WILL execute them if they don’t? Al Qaida will. Don’t hate soldiers; hate the people that send them to war. I wish some of the people on ATS that hate soldiers so much would make the sacrifice of serving just for the sake of “research”. They could find out all the “big military secrets”.
As for soldiers being trained to kill absolutely they are, but only in the defense of their life or the life of a fellow soldier or civilian on the battlefield. If the insurgents spent as much ambition peacefully pleading their case to the Iraqi government for our withdrawal from Iraq we would be gone. They could spend the money they use for weapons on building hospitals and schools here instead of yours. The insurgency is a power struggle for Religious leadership. If we leave, Iraqis will keep killing Iraqis. Do I care about that? Not really. I’d rather just stay home, and enjoy what freedoms I have left in America before they are all gone. If I said I did care and want to fight for the people of Iraq and see that country peaceful and self sufficient. I would be moral and compassionate, but still supporting the war. It’s a lose-lose situation for everyone involved.

[edit on 20-10-2008 by smoke screen]

And it will never end. We will always be "the easy target of the masses". It's so much easier and safer to call the Americans the bad guys because they know we are bound by laws - they know I'm not going to come to their house in the middle of the night and kill them. But no..... let's not focus on what the terrorists are doing. It's okay to set your daughter on fire or kill your wife because she smiled at another man... that's just Americans not being sensitive to other's ways.

Please.

Oh - and the part about us helping people out - about the scenes where we've rendered medical aid - the same scenes I witnessed first hand as I'm sure you did too - ----- those are just propaganda according to them. Lies. Americans don't do that. Or it's our fault to begin with.

There's no convincing them. I've tried since I've been on this site. Present valid evidence and arguments about government/military conspiracies. It's all just further lies to them.

So just let them keep bashing us. One day we'll be gone. Then - they'll be whining because the US isn't helping the little country getting ravaged by the mean old dictator.

We'll never win as the US. Never.

[edit on 20-10-2008 by mf_luder]

[edit on 20-10-2008 by mf_luder]

[edit on 20-10-2008 by mf_luder]

reply to post by mf_luder


You think this is bad? You should have seen what I had to put up with during Viet Nam. Every puke in the country spewed hate.

Young, old, men, women, everyone. I could be in uniform on the side of the road, and these folks would flip me off, swerve as if they were going to run over me, throw things - you wouldn't believe.

When we got back I believe we flew into a processing center in Oakland. I think eight or nine packed into a cab to San Francisco International in those wee hours. Late morning waiting on a flight, a girl and guy approached me and the girl said something and tried to spit at me, but it was just a bit of spray.

Before I could think, the heel of my fist landed right on top of her head, and fortunately her boyfriend caught her as she went lights out. I snatched him up and called him a chicken**** for using a girl to spit on soldiers and dared him to go ahead and spit. I was cold. I could have wrung his neck and gone on to eat a full meal.

He didn't say a word, and I turned to the two airport security who were slowly approaching. I was pissed, and I assume I glared, as they just veered off and went on by.

These folks that are posting these snippits know nothing. As we say down South, they "never had no proper upbringing." Their ignorance is so blatantly skewered that there isn't even a mutual talking point. They don't have one!

For example. One of the most misleading things is a photograph. Aside from the technology that allows manipulation, a photograph is a point perspective, taken in milliseconds, narrow in scope of view, without narrative, without time, conditons, or chronological perspective. Where a photograph is placed, within any context, related or not, will dictate presumption, and leave open to any interpretation.

A photograph shows a bloody dead child on the ground with a soldier nearby, rifle in hand, looking down on it.

What does this mean? Why is the child bloody? Why is the solder standing there with a rifle in his hand? What is he looking at? Did the soldier kill the child? Did the soldier discover the child? If the soldier hadn't been in the area, would the child still be alive? Did the soldier have anything to do with the child's death, intentionally or unintentionally? Did the soldier kill the child by accident?

It could be that during a firefight between forces, a child ran across between the forces, and got caught in a crossfire. Accident. But then, which side killed him?

It could be that the child ran in front of a car, was run over, and a nearby patrolling soldier was the only one caught from the angle the photograph was taken.

It could be that the guerillas were using women and children as shields and this unfortunate child was killed during the engagement.

It could be that a car ran into an IED which exploded, and the child was thrown clear.

It could be that the child's father, who had helped Americans, was ordered by villiage chiefs that either one son had to die, or his entire family. (This happened.)

The photo visually demonstrate a fact. One armed soldier, one dead, bloody child. At that moment from that angle. Yet there is no truth to be found in this fact.

Truth? Sometimes there's more than one truth. If so, maybe there's no such thing.

Many journalists are too ignorant and egocentric to realize the real stories of combat. War is the ultimate human struggle. All history, all human accomplishment, all endeavors of the human spirit, like it or not, were the direct or indirect result of wars.

The conclusion of wars defines nations and peoples. Wars burn into our souls those basis elements of humanity that we as a species universally value.

Men. War. The very act of war often purifies a rancid human condition. War is the ultimate in human sacrifice. The ultimate in human costs. War enables. Mortal struggle elevates. Ideals. Honor. Duty. Sacrifice. Failings. Heroes. Legends. And that's just one view.

After this is over, the story will be told in many ways, by many people, from many perspectives, for many reasons. From these many tellings, we will eventually and more closely determine the truth. Or at least a more accurate presentation of the truth. The event isn't the truth. Perception in context is the only way to determine the truth.

None-participants will ever make judgments based on biased slivers of fact.

Those of us who've been there and done that - well, we can only hope that these same critics will find them in a situation that requires real action.

reply to post by dooper


Hey Man, I can honestly say that I respect you guys because of that very reason. Americans were so immature back then. You and I aren't very different. I probably would have done the same thing in that situation if it had happened to me when I got back from the invasion.

A star for you.

reply to post by mf_luder


Wow, talk about missing the point. If there was no immoral behavior happening in Iraq, then I guess our own gov would not be prosecuting soldiers for murder, we would not have video evidence of deadly force used against innocent people, we would not have soldiers, GOOD soldiers speaking out about once they are out from under the grip of the government.

Do not sit at your desk and tell me that good men and women in uniform should be targets because you want to pretend that there is no such thing as a bad apple over there. Any soldier killed in battle by an angry civillian because his family was killed by some bored, crazy redneck, is now on your back then. If you want to pretend that there are no soldiers over there doing IMMORAL things, then you should have to report to every good soldiers family and tell them that he was killed because some other guy wearing an american flag blew up his killers family for no reason one day.

The people that think that delineating the bad seeds is akin to labeling all soldiers as bad are either not reading, or really do not care about our men and women in uniform, or they are lost over the edge and think that torturing innocent people for fun is ok. Whatever the affliction is. YOU will not tell me that I am labeling the millitary in general as bad, nor will you tell me that I am a liar when I tell you that yes, there are immoral soldiers.


[edit on 10/20/08 by MorningStar8741]

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by MorningStar8741

 

You have to be ****ing me! There are immoral soldiers???

Hey, nothing gets past you!

Wow.

How insightful.

Please! Give us another!

In case you were not paying attention. I was being told that if I call anyone immoral, then I am calling them all immoral and I am wrong for that because it is not true. I do believe the word "liar" has been thrown around a bunch. If you think that it is so obvious that there are immoral soldiers, tell your buddies that are arguing against that same point with me.

reply to post by MorningStar8741


And again.

The OP stated that we were ALL immoral because of the actions of a few.

THE OP STATED THAT.

Not you.

Why are you taking stuff so pesonally in this thread? Are you the OP with two accounts? For crying out loud - you even went so far as to call me an apologist for rapists. Wake up brother. Wake up.

I know we have bad people in the military. There are bad people everywhere. But OP doesn't have the right to call us all bad because of those few people.

Yes, there is bad stuff going on in Iraq - those people DO GET PUNISHED. That doesn't mean we all go over there and "have fun", or are all "crazy rednecks" as you and your ilk like to point out.

Now stop bellyaching and pay attention to what the hell I'm saying.

OP - (the original poster) said "Shocking: American Army Morality" in his thread title. He then presented some information about how a few people acted.

These actions are not indicative of the entire US Army. Now, whether you were saying that, or he was saying that - I don't really give two damns, but you are not going to constantly badger me and try to make yourself into a victim of my posts. Half of my posts are directed at a certain person on here for a good reason. Your one big one is up above this one.. that's your very own reply to from me

Now get out of my hair.

reply to post by seridium


Gee, what if the guy you are talking about had his sister hauled off by the Taliban and stoned to death because she wanted to go to school. Maybe he might be happy to see U.S. soldiers showing up killing all his Taliban nieghbors who think they are doing the work of God.

We could what if this whole thing to death.

What if your dad was a fire fighte who died on 9-11 running up the stairs of the WTC. If we hadn't sent people into Afganistan, maybe even more people would be dead from the acts of terrorists. Maybe fighting a war against terrorism isn't all that bad of an idea.

reply to post by poet1b


Careful man, you've just opened a can of worms for all the naysayers and whiners.

Just a friendly warning.

Star for you.

And for the risk of getting reprimanded by mods:

A U2U from Morningstar:

Obi Whatever,

Do not go off on me for half a page and then end it by telling me to never reply to you again. This is an open forum. If you do not want me to reply to you, do not say anything stupid to me in the first place.

I said stop bothering me. This U2U doesn't fall under the "stop bothering me" part of my request. Thanks.


[edit on 20-10-2008 by mf_luder]