London hacker loses appeal over US extradition

Originally posted by emsed1
McKinnon claims he was only looking for UFOs. If that is true, why did he install backdoor software and delete files at the Naval weapons center?

This had nothing to do with UFOs.

It wasn't one simple hack done out of curiosity. It was repeated malicious attempts to damage military computer systems.

The reason he faces 70-80 years in prison is because he is indicted with 8 separate counts. Each count carries a maximum 10 year sentence.

He should consider himself lucky he is a UK citizen. An American citizen caught doing this sort of crime could face charges of treason, which carries the death penalty.

WIRED UK Article quoting McKinnon

McKinnon, from Glasgow, is accused of causing $700,000-worth of damage by hacking into 97 America military computers at the Pentagon and Nasa between February 2001 and March 2002. He is charged with stealing 950 passwords and deleting files at Earle naval weapons station in New Jersey. If he is found guilty, McKinnon faces up to 70 years in prison.

The quote you offered is not quoting McKinnon.

So the MSM says that McKinnon deleted files and did all this malecious attacks, this is not true, watch the dang video I posted. THEY ARE FRAMING HIM FOR CYBER TERRORISM! This is all a ruse you are hearing, here I have a vid of the man himself talking about what he was looking for. Cme on dude, it's almost like you believe all this bull the government and MSM put out there. I know hackers, I know what they do, what they're after. I'm part of an organization that shares hacked info (I have a copy of the Majestic 12 hanbook as well as other topsecret documents), I know about some of these organizations and bl;ack projects that are shrouded in mystery such as HAARP (I have a friend who handled TS Clearance there). Watch the first video at least, this is a good guy, he has nothing to gain from destroying military comps and he obviously is not a cracker.

-Jimmy

Originally posted by jimmyjackblack
I see a lot of you guys don't know that the hackers are on our side.

I'll post what I posted on the previous thread on this topic:

This hacker folks, is a hero, not a villan.
I think there is a broad misconception about hackers, plus what the people in the media and government officials call hackers are in fact not hackers, they are called crackers. Crackers do damage to your comp, hackers are just people who want to learn information, they helped us in the past by releasing secret information from the Church of Scientology and other things.
Hackers have a bad rep because TPTB are afraid that they will make all there secrets public knowledge.

This man deserves an award instead of a life sentance.

P.S. the second link is broken of the vid is taken down.

-Jimmy

*Gives a standing ovation*
its people like him that helps to bring accountability to unscrupolous actions by the TPTB

reply to post by emsed1

OK so theoretically if I logged onto your bank account and you had no password I am justified in taking all your money and it would be unfair to punish me?

Erm... and exactly how does this compare to what your own government is doing to all of you right now? Your passwords aren't worth a crap. Your Masters are all over you and your bank accounts like a cancer. They're collecting information on you and your family 24/7 and you can't make a phone call or send an email without it being spied upon, and you're lashing out at some sad little UFO hunter in a bedsit in North London with a 56k modem who discovered that those computers were absolutely crawling with Russian, Chinese, Korean and Arabic hackers because these systems were completely unprotected. He even left little messages for a while, telling them that their security was non-existent.

Maybe you made your statements without actually having any background knowledge of this case which has been going on for several years now? Maybe you're only getting your information from the American Mainstream Media who, as we all know, only ever speak the truth and are certainly not the Propaganda Wing of the Pentagon and the Whitehouse... (That's sarcasm, by the way, sorry. I know we've only just been introduced ;-))

McKinnon was offered a plea-bargain in the first instance. The offer was 2-3 years maximum which he could serve in the UK, which he turned down because he was told by his solicitors that it could easily be tried in the UK under UK legislation, would get no more than six months as he wasn't being accused of causing anything more than a nuisance, and there was no need for him to be dragged across the Atlantic by The Out Of Control Bullies.

After he refused thise offer, the Out Of Control Bullies suddenly got very nasty and as usual resorted to dirty, illegal tricks. (After all, if you're the most Out Of Control Bully in the playground, who's going to stop you doing exactly what you want?) They suddenly accused him of causing massive damage, closing accounts, conducting the largest ever hack in the entire history of the Universe etc. etc. which was never ever the case. It's just bull#. His solicitor's office was broken into and the recordings and documentary proof of the original plea-bargain meeting was stolen. What a suprise!

If computers were seriously interfered with and malicious damage done it was by the more malevolent Eastern hackers. Gary McKinnon is being made to pay for the embarassment and incompetence of people who should know better. Now he's being threatened with 60 - 70 years in prison? He's now being accused of being a bloody terrorist and is now being threatened with Guantanamo Bay? Give. Me. A. Break.

Your wonderful, fair, honest, transparent system will now do everything possible to make sure that Gary McKinnon never gets to spill the beans in public about how absolutely unprotected your supposedly secure networks are, and how much danger your country has been placed in by sheer incompetence.

McKinnon has said that on the rare occasion he came across a password protected machine he simply moved on. Yes, he got sloppy, and yes, he was foolish to poke the sleeping tiger with a stick when he decided to leave an anti-war statement on a computer screen on one occasion. That was asking for trouble, but this is completely out of all proportion, as usual, to distract the public from pointing in the OPPOSITE direction at the REAL culprits.

Why not instead start sacking your utterly incompetent officials who have so criminally left your military computer systems completely unprotected, without so much as a User Password. I mean come on! Too stupid to set a password on network nodes containing supposed Secrets?! I think you're prosecuting the wrong person here, but then you make a habit of that...

reply to post by Demandred


I beg to differ, how can you possibly suggest someone guilty of infiltrating computer systems and information of a nature national security, a hero. This pontentially has life threatening repercussions...

If found guilty he deserves everything he gets.

Originally posted by LiquidMirage

Originally posted by Shazmar
OK it was a crime, but the crime was committed in the UK therefore charges and trial should be brought under the UK justice system.

We have extradition agreements with England. He committed a crime against the United States Federal Government.

The people at fault are the people who designed the so called security system and spent a lot of the US taxpayers dollars to do it. Maybe the taxpayer should ask for a refund and give a few dollars to Mckinnon to pay his legal fees for helping them out in pointing out the flaws in the system, LOL

I believe that has to be the most idiotic thing I have ever read in my life. Surely you are not serious! By using your logic, if you leave your front door unlocked and somebody comes in and steals your possessions I suppose you are at fault for failing to keep your stuff under lock and key. After all, we couldn't possibly expect people to know right from wrong and stay the hell out of other peoples stuff!

Has nobody any sense anymore?

Yes America has extradition agreements with the UK, however that does not get away from the fact the crime was committed on UK soil so UK justice should rule. As for extradition, America does not extradite its citizens as far as I know. Also, if America wants someone so bad do they not just Render them? Please advise me on the last time America extradited one of its citizens.

As for the rest of your post, are you telling everyone on this board that you leave your property unlocked in the full expectation that we all know right from wrong. Have you told your insurance company this is what you do? If you have please advise how large your premiums are. Was it you who mentioned Idiotic statements?

Let's come back out of the Twilight Zone for a minute and return to the topic at hand.

Gary McKinnon Indictment

Here is the text of the indictment. I watched the video, so I think you guys should read the indictment.

1 - He intentionally accessed a computer belonging to the Army at Fort Myer, Virginia. He deleted 1300 user accounts, installed RemoteAnywhere, deleted system files critical to operating the computer, copied a file of usernames and passwords and installed backdoor tools to obtain unauthorized access to computers.

2 - He intentionally accessed computers exclusively used by the Navy, obtaining administrator privileges, installed RemoteAnywhere, installed tools for obtaining unauthorized access to the computer and deleted system logs.

3 - He did the same to computers at NASA, including copying a file with usernames and encrypted passwords.

4 - He did the same thing to computers used exclusively by the Department of Defense.

5 - He did the same to computers used exclusively to the Air Force.

6 - He did the same to computers belonging to the private companies Tobin International, University of Tennesee, Frontline Solutions, Louisiana Technical College, Martin Township Library, Bethlehem Public Library.

The defendent himself does not deny that he did these things.

In light of this information, how can anyone regard him as a hero?

If his claims of simply looking for UFO information and exposing security vulnerabilities were true, why did he tamper with, destroy and disrupt military computer operations?

If he was only looking to expose the truth, why didn't he? He hacked and cracked for years before getting caught and never tried to let the military know about these security vulnerabilities.

What if you live in the UK and I live in the US and I hack into your computer, steal passwords, install backdoor programs and delete system files. Would you think it is ok simply because I am not physically in the UK? Should I be punished if you lost thousands of personal photographs or money from your bank accounts?

Originally posted by emsed1
1 - He intentionally accessed a computer belonging to the Army at Fort Myer, Virginia. He deleted 1300 user accounts, installed RemoteAnywhere, deleted system files critical to operating the computer, copied a file of usernames and passwords and installed backdoor tools to obtain unauthorized access to computers.

I do not believe that he deleted 1300 user accounts (remember he was trying to keep a low profile, that would have alerted authorities to his presence). He did install RemoteAnywhere, but not on there comp, on his, plus that is not a destructive program. He most likely didn't destroy files critical to operating computers (this would not help him out in anyway to obtain the info he wanted). He did copy a file pf user names and passwords, but didn't have to install a backdoor to do either, he wrote a pearlscript that gave him access.

Originally posted by emsed1
2 - He intentionally accessed computers exclusively used by the Navy, obtaining administrator privileges, installed RemoteAnywhere, installed tools for obtaining unauthorized access to the computer and deleted system logs.

Of course he exclusivly accessed computers exclusivly used by the Navy, where do ya think they're going to keep info about ufos at? MUFON LOL?
He would not need to install RemoteAnywhere as stated before, the only system logs he probably would have deleted are the ones that reference his presence there which is completely understandable.

Originally posted by emsed1
3 - He did the same to computers at NASA, including copying a file with usernames and encrypted passwords.

Yep, sure did, but didn't have maliceous intentions according to his own account.

Originally posted by emsed1
4 - He did the same thing to computers used exclusively by the Department of Defense.

Yep, sure did, but didn't have maliceous intentions according to his own account.

Originally posted by emsed1
5 - He did the same to computers used exclusively to the Air Force.

Yep, sure did, but didn't have maliceous intentions according to his own account.

Originally posted by emsed1
6 - He did the same to computers belonging to the private companies Tobin International, University of Tennesee, Frontline Solutions, Louisiana Technical College, Martin Township Library, Bethlehem Public Library.

The defendent himself does not deny that he did these things.

Actually, he does not deny that he did some of those things.

Originally posted by emsed1
In light of this information, how can anyone regard him as a hero?

If his claims of simply looking for UFO information and exposing security vulnerabilities were true, why did he tamper with, destroy and disrupt military computer operations?

He did not destroy any of those comps, he may have disrupted, but according to his own words, he did not destroy. What good would that have done him? It wouldn't have covered his tracks.

Originally posted by emsed1
If he was only looking to expose the truth, why didn't he? He hacked and cracked for years before getting caught and never tried to let the military know about these security vulnerabilities.

He tried, but failed, mostly of what he was trying to do is validate some claims made by others who claim to have insight, he had a FREAKIN' 56K MODEM CONNECTION!

Originally posted by emsed1
What if you live in the UK and I live in the US and I hack into your computer, steal passwords, install backdoor programs and delete system files. Would you think it is ok simply because I am not physically in the UK? Should I be punished if you lost thousands of personal photographs or money from your bank accounts?

It's wrong to do that, but for a government to cover there own butts on illegal activities isn't right either. This guy never claimed to damage the computers, niether was that his intention, you have to be pretty hacker illiterate to believe all the BS about hackers, the only reason why crackers do damage is cause they are immature kids or immature adults that are bent on causeing grief for others or are taking revenge, this fellow doesn't show any signs of being that sorta guy.

Honestly, who are you going to believe, the government (who has done way more damage to the people than all the hackers combined) or a hacker searching for the truth to help us out, as they have in the past.

-Jimmy

reply to post by jimmyjackblack


If he didn't do the things in the indictment then he has nothing to worry about.

He is being extradited to stand trial and in our criminal justice system (based ironically on English common law) he is innocent of all these charges until the government proves them beyond a shadow of a doubt.

In that sense he is lucky. Other foreign nationals who have tried to disrupt the military get sent to Cuba and face military tribunals where the burden of proof is not so great.

Originally posted by emsed1
reply to post by jimmyjackblack

 

If he didn't do the things in the indictment then he has nothing to worry about.

He is being extradited to stand trial and in our criminal justice system (based ironically on English common law) he is innocent of all these charges until the government proves them beyond a shadow of a doubt.

In that sense he is lucky. Other foreign nationals who have tried to disrupt the military get sent to Cuba and face military tribunals where the burden of proof is not so great.

Are you insane? Do you actually hear what you are saying?
You are saying that the courts are fair, you are saying that our government is fair, Well according to your logic, guess OJ really didn't kill his wife and MKULTRA ok and the radiation they released on small towns just to see the effect back during the cold war era were justifeid as well as all this shredding of our constitution, eh?
He's going to get a life sentance for this, you can't be serious.
He is not considered inocent until proven guilty, I know that for a fact, he will be convicted and found guilty (falsly of course) of cYbEr TeRrOrIsM!!!!111!!one!!11 1!! L00k 0utz da b00gy man g0nna get y00z! YOU GONNA GET RAPED (by the boogyman)!
Seriously, if he even knocked on a back door of one of thoise comps, he's going to be falsly accused and sentance to life in prison, the government doesn't want there dirt to be shown, this guy was just lifting the rug, there were many other hackers out there (obviously better than him) that didn't get caught, they could have done all this damage, but this is the fall guy, this is the guy the gov is going to make an examply of "Hey! Don't try and find out the truth or show people our criminal actions, or we'll semd you to Gitmo!".
Common dude, get real, quit living in this dream land where the government is our saviour and america is the best country in the world and the gov never does anything wrong.

-Jimmy

I cant help but think about all the recent discussions about British spies being in Russia and vice versa.
Our government wouldn`t extradite to Russia any u.k. citizens so why are they doing this?I accept that Russia may kill any of their own dissidents but Gary Mckinnon has been threatened with it too with regards to the death penalty.

It doesn`t make sense.

The thing I've never understood is why cyber crimes in the US carry such unjustly high punishments?

Why there such a need to make an example of hackers?

Most of the hackers out there are not malicious, they just do it as a hobby or a pet project.

70 Years for establishing a connection to a UNSECURED military computer and looking at the data stored there?

Why do paedophiles get 20 years for sexually abusing kids?

The justice system is completely FUBAR'ed.

The guy does deserve some punishment but 70 years is just ridiculous.
I would like to a see an explanation as tto how to his hacking attempts put people's lives at risk or caused nearly $1 million dollars damage.

He committed the crimes whilst in London so he should be punished in London not in the US where the prosecutor is already reputed to have said he wants him to fry, they are using as nothing but a scapegoat to cover up their own incompetence.

Originally posted by LiquidMirage


I think we would all like to know what the worlds governments know about the existence of extraterrestrials and UFO's but hacking government computer systems is not the way to do it. This guy is getting exactly what he deserves.

What are your opinions?

www.breitbart.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

He deserves to be punished, for hacking into a computer period.
Because its illegal.
He even admits it was wrong.
He pleaded guilty.
But why should the penalty be worse, for hacking a military/gov computer than anyone elses?
THAT IS DOUBLE STANDARDS!
And why should the tax payer pay millions of dollars for them to pursue him and extradite him from his own country to the USA.
Where taxpayers then have to pay MORE money to keep him in prison every year.
HOW can people not see, the utter absurdness of this.
HOW can people not see the logic in this?
That there is NO reason to waste all this money and effort when his OWN country could pay for him to go to jail.
This is not even to mention, that because of his actions, the security holes in the cheap nasty windows pc's were discovered.
And now has stopped possibly even enemy country's hacking into them.
How can people posses no logic or reason on this subject?
This is about blaming him, for making the security holes, which were there as a result of some slack lazy corrupt on the take official, who installed cheap nasty windows pc's instead of paying for the professional secure linux versions.
This is about spending tax money, on covering up that Bill Gates software is JUNK.
And covering up that the person responsible for purchasing it, was on the take from Microshaft.
And using this silly man, as a scape goat.

US prosecutors have offered McKinnon a plea agreement.

If he pleads guilty he will be sentenced to four years, instead of the 70 requested in the indictment.

THE INTERNET

I would also take issue with the statement that the crimes occurred in the UK.

The computers that suffered the damage were in the US.

Much in the same way that if you launched a missile at the US from the UK that caused damage, you would be tried here for the crime.

We may have to just agree to disagree on the facts of the case, however can we all agree that he will at least have access to quality dental care during his visit here?

I don't understand how the Glorious British Empire with all it's enlightened societal values never learned how to floss, but that's a topic for another thread.

hahahaha, so often i'm being told by americans on this web site that they are "the most powerful nation on the earth", "dont mess with us", and you can be brought down by a junky in his dressing gown lmfao, all hail mckinnon!!!!

reply to post by emsed1


americans really dont understand the world outside your borders do you?, you know what, ther's a whole world out there and we all hate you, its a shame gary mckinnon didnt find the self distruct button, flossing, do behave

I guess the other way of looking at it, is what "could" he have done; let's face it, he had almost unlimited access for a LONG period of time, if his intentions had been to damage, then it wouldn't be a few isolated computers.

This was all possible because the windows administrator passwords were left blank, just like they are on many computers bought with pre-installed operating systems and presumably, the lack of any firewall at all for that level of attack to even work; once an end point station is reached (router, PC or whatever), you can then access the rest of the network machines connected to it, again only if no firewall is installed to prevent it.

More interesting, is the charge sheet with the computers supposedly attacked had all the public IP's listed only covered by a black layer in the PDF document (search for it, is still around); copying and pasting into another document removes this exposing all the vulnerable machines IP's which "hopefully" have since been patched or more likely set up as HP's.

Regardless, he broke the law and admits that, but he is hardly a master criminal and if that is the most successful military CS attack of all time, the mind boggles as to how it wasn't completely wiped out years ago.

Second, they created a law to extradite him, a law which states that no evidence is needed for extradition, this was given to the EU, only Britain and Ireland signed it, disgusting, this to me casts doubt on the supposed 'damages' he had done to the machines.

I'm not sure the law was created for him, but I agree - it's a BS law.

Anyone who knows "real" hackers (and not kids doing it for fun), will know they try to do as little damage as possible, primarily to avoid detection.

I'm not sure about others posting in this thread, but working in IT myself, what Gary says he did makes a lot of sense. He seems switched on to the problems of being detected. He didn't get told to say this - it comes across too naturally whenever you hear him interviewed.

news.bbc.co.uk...

Not sure if that was posted here, but his interview with Radio 5 Live was interesting. He's quite obviously very annoyed at the ruling.

The fact the US made him an offer that they refused to put into writing, then got nasty over shows just where they're coming from. It was clearly a trap to get him over there. If he'd accepted the original deal, I bet he would have disappeared.

Saying he's a terrorist is also going way too far. No hacker can be a terrorist just by hacking into computers. Last time I looked, you had to threaten life or take life en-mass, but no such ting appears in the indictment.

I understand what others are saying when they say he was a criminal for hacking into computers, but that isn't the issue being debated. The whole problem is with the US reaction to his actions, and the sentence they're looking at - it's totally disproportionate for his actions.

I also dispute the cost of damages.

Something people should be questioning is why do we have a one-way extradition treaty with the USA that states the US can ask for any UK citizen to be extradited to the USA without so much as proof of a crime? Why do we have this ONE-WAY agreement with them???????????

I hope he wins his appeal. OK - he broke the law (and he admits it, too), but everything the US is doing right now is BS, and shouldn't be able to happen the way it is doing. Forget the Patriot Act - this has to be bordering on human rights abuse?

Originally posted by THELONIO
reply to post by emsed1

 

americans really dont understand the world outside your borders do you?, you know what, ther's a whole world out there and we all hate you, its a shame gary mckinnon didnt find the self distruct button, flossing, do behave

On the contrary, my job takes me around the world on a regular basis and I have talked with many people about their impressions of America and Americans.

They don't all hate us.

Do you have anything relavent to add to this particular thread about Gary McKinnon?

reply to post by emsed1


Just checking in...

We all good here?

Excellent!

Case Closed!

Ignorance Denied!

Denial Ignored!

Let's move on.