Im truly undecided. Help me vote.

Write in for someone worth it, or vote for Gravel if he's on the ballet. If you're going to vote, that would be the only way to walk out of that little curtained coffin with some dignity and self respect.

reply to post by Skyfloating


Too many stupid people are voting without reading anything. I say Obama, though isn't very clear on his stance. People just expect him to make miracles cause he is supposed to be the great inspirational man that comes along in an unassuming package. Everybody think he is gonna be Christ, showing the world he does not come n the color of the artistocratic whites and he is nothing but inspiration without a clear delineated plan.

reply to post by Pocky

Too many stupid people are voting without reading anything. I say Obama, though isn't very clear on his stance.

Did you really just say that?

reply to post by Skyfloating


What issues are important to you? I think that's the deciding factor.

If health care, abortion, civil rights, education, the environment are your priorities, I'd say Obama.

If religion, family, firearms, continued presence in the Middle East, homeland security, immigration reform, prayer in schools are where your interests lie, I'd say stick with McCain.

If you want to vote for saving the Constitution, vote for Ron Paul.

If you want to send a message that you're not going to participate in a corrupt system, don't vote.

Having said that, I posted here about some of my thoughts:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by isa75


All of that negative stuff about Obama and his wife is not true. I know it's hard to read up on all of it, but after finding out so much of it was lies, I just can't believe anything I hear about them anymore. It's just a Republican tactic to make you afraid to vote for Obama.

Its been an entertaining and interesting quality read by all of you. Thanks for keeping the responses sane and simple.

I´ll be asking some specific questions toward specific posters later on. First I´ll say: Maybe you can help me vote for either McCain or Obama (discounting all other politicians now) based on my personal attitude.

Personal values:

* Small Government
* Self-responsibility
* No foreign intervention
* Yes to Universal Healthcare
* No to war (Instead: Diplomacy)
* Yes to Education
* Yes to Capitalism
* Yes to NASA
* No to easy immigration
* No to funds for Africa (instead: Education)
* No to religion in politics
* No to "redistrubution of wealth" (no to extra taxing of the wealthy)


Based upon this: Who is the better candidate for me?





[edit on 29-7-2008 by Skyfloating]

Originally posted by evanmontegarde
If you're a libertarian then you should look at the Bush administration's financial record.

The CATO Institute, the top Libertarian think tank, has described Bush's presidency as "more liberal" than the Clinton one, spending wise.

President Bush has expanded the size of the Federal government more than any President since FDR.

By increasing government spending (primarily in Iraq) and cutting taxes (mostly for the richest 10% of America) Bush has wracked up the largest national deficit ever.

Who supports the Bush tax cuts? McCain. Who supports staying in Iraq indefinitely? McCain. Who supports spending $12 billion a month in Iraq? McCain.

Bob Barr is the ideal candidate if you are a libertarian, but he has no chance of winning. The question you have to ask yourself is this - are you willing to let the policies of the Bush administration continue?

Not only do Bush and McCain not represent liberatrian values, they dont represent conservative values either - at least not what Ive learned "conservative values" to mean.

Interesting hard data there. Thanks.

Originally posted by kaffemoka
There are going to be a lot of posts slamming both candidates on this thread, but I hope you focus on the positives of each candidate. Like I said, neither is perfect and they are both flawed, the greater question is who can offer our country the best path forward...

Yes, I´d like to hear more positive things about both candidates.

Nowdays many seem to base their decisions on the negatives. But certainly both have good sides, otherwise they wouldnt even have made it to candidacy.

Originally posted by citizen smith

If you can't decide on a candidate or have lost heart in the entire process altogether, why not offer your vote to 'lobby interest groups' in return for financial compensation?

Good idea. Something I hadnt thought of before.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
* Small Government
* Self-responsibility
* No foreign intervention
* Yes to Universal Healthcare
* No to war (Instead: Diplomacy)
* Yes to Education
* Yes to Capitalism
* Yes to NASA
* No to easy immigration
* No to funds for Africa (instead: Education)
* No to religion in politics
* No to "redistrubution of wealth" (no to extra taxing of the wealthy)
[edit on 29-7-2008 by Skyfloating]

Based on your parameters, neither of the two main candidates suits you. This is the essence of the problem with this election. Your views are widely held by many Americans, but are not reflected in our candidate choices. The world is changing but our political system is caught in some sort of time warp of antiquated procedures and platforms.

I think you will have to do as many have done and has been suggested in this thread, select the core issues most dear to you and vote along those lines.

I am leaning strongly toward Obama but I am not 100% convinced due to his FISA position and his stance on energy issues. But as for McCain, hell no. Previously, I voted for Bush twice.

You are more than aware enough to cast a rational vote, no matter the candidate. I absolutely think you should vote, even if you write in a candidate. People die across the globe for their right to vote.

Originally posted by Becker44

I'll give you $100 to vote for McCain!

To cast a vote is one of the greatest things the populace can do. I also feel it is very personal. I highly doubt one can be influenced by anothers opinion of candidates and thus cast a vote in that direction.

100 for McCain? I´ll consider. Im not as anti-McCain as many on the board here, but he does pale a bit beside Obama in terms of vibrancy, youthfullness, energy...even if some of his issues are right-for-me.

You never know, this could be a "Sky" ploy to expose the leanings of many ATS users. It is a conspiracy forum after all.

Its actually a ploy to learn about the actual issues. I havent learned much in the threads here up to now because they´re all about stereotyping and polarizing.

I wear it on my sleeve. I'm a gun totting card carrying Republican. Not too proud of W but after McCain we'll get a good one to run.

Becker

Can I be a republican without toting a gun?

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Personal values:



Based upon this: Who is the better candidate for me?

* Small Government - Neither. Both candidates want larger governments.
* Self-responsibility - I dont follow you here, but i'll say neither.
* No foreign intervention - Both
* Yes to Universal Healthcare - Obama
* No to war (Instead: Diplomacy) - Obama
* Yes to Education - Obama
* Yes to Capitalism - Neither
* Yes to NASA - Both
* No to easy immigration - Neither (at this point anyways)
* No to funds for Africa (instead: Education) - McCain
* No to religion in politics - Obama
* No to "redistrubution of wealth" McCain



Now - one at a time

Small Government - Neither. Both candidates want larger governments.

Any form of government that gets added makes government larger. Office of homeland security? Larger government. Filled out "new employee" forms lately? My office has to update them, it seems, every year now, because that office changes them all the time. And we all know how liberals think.




Yes to Universal Healthcare - Obama

McCain offers us a tax credit - but we still pay for our own health care. out of pocket. Thats not universal when you can't afford to pay for it in the first place.





No to war (Instead: Diplomacy) - Obama
Pretty open and shut:

Obama says lets restore diplomacy

McCain say the IRAQ war is a noble war and how could we forget Bom bom bom, bom BOMB Iran - said jestfully? I find nothing funny about war. Especially when a conservative is making the joke.







Yes to Education - Obama

Both candidates talk a good game here: So lets see who voted for what

Barack Obama

# First Senate bill: increase Pell Grant from $4,050 to $5,100. (Aug 2007)
# Sponsored legislations that recruit and reward good teachers. (Sep 2004)
# Voted YES on $52M for "21st century community learning centers". (Oct 2005)
# Voted YES on $5B for grants to local educational agencies. (Oct 2005)
# Voted YES on shifting $11B from corporate tax loopholes to education. (Mar 2005)

John Mccain

# Unrestricted block grants--let states decide spending. (Feb 2000)
# Voted NO on $52M for "21st century community learning centers". (Oct 2005)
# Voted NO on $5B for grants to local educational agencies. (Oct 2005)
# Voted NO on shifting $11B from corporate tax loopholes to education. (Mar 2005)
# Voted NO on funding smaller classes instead of private tutors. (May 2001)
# Voted NO on funding student testing instead of private tutors. (May 2001)
# Voted NO on spending $448B of tax cut on education & debt reduction. (Apr 2001)
# Voted YES on declaring memorial prayers and religious symbols OK at schools. (May 1999)
# Voted YES on allowing more flexibility in federal school rules. (Mar 1999)
# Voted YES on education savings accounts. (Jun 1998)
# Voted YES on school vouchers in DC. (Sep 1997)
# Voted YES on $75M for abstinence education. (Jul 1996)
# Voted YES on requiring schools to allow voluntary prayer. (Jul 1994)
# Voted NO on national education standards. (Feb 1994)
# Focus educational resources to help those with greatest need. (Jul 2001)
# Require state standards, regular assessments, and sanctions. (Jul 2001)
# Support Ed-Flex: more flexibility if more accountable. (Jul 2001)
# Rated 45% by the NEA, indicating a mixed record on public education. (Dec 2003)

My personal favorite: McCain Voted NO on shifting $11B from corporate tax loopholes to education. Obama voted Yes.








No to religion in politics - Obama
Refer to this list of things that McCain supports and endorses in the name of religion.





So out of a possible 12 points (based on your preferences)

McCain scores 4
Obama scores 6

So, fundamentally speaking, you should cast your vote for my good man Barack Hussein Obama

[edit on 7/29/2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]

[edit on 7/29/2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]

reply to post by Gateway


I like your post a lot and I basically agree with "I will vote for neither of them".

But I thought Id give it one last try with this thread and ask ATSers for urgent reasons to vote for one of them.

Originally posted by Rockpuck

I personally hold out for a Monarchy.

Why Monarchy? And why support something thats not gonna happen?

As for Ron Paul: I read some book excerpts of his and did feel "in tune" with them.

reply to post by Andrew E. Wiggin


Thanks for your informed overview. Very helpful (for other readers as well Im sure). Starred.

Originally posted by kosmicjack


Based on your parameters, neither of the two main candidates suits you. This is the essence of the problem with this election. Your views are widely held by many Americans, but are not reflected in our candidate choices. The world is changing but our political system is caught in some sort of time warp of antiquated procedures and platforms.

Im pretty sure my views are widely held - by the majority in fact. And yet the candidates follow an antiquated system of thinking.

Originally posted by Rockpuck

I personally hold out for a Monarchy.

Rockpuck you are such a Jesuit. I hope you were joking with that.

Skyfloating: May I ask why you feel the need to even bother voting at all?

reply to post by Andrew E. Wiggin


There are a couple of those I'd change, but the one of those I would really have a substantial disagreement with based on the facts at hand is Obama's stance on Nasa. He has strongly hinted at major cutbacks in the manned space program:

Article

[edit on 29-7-2008 by vor78]

Originally posted by Cadbury
Skyfloating: May I ask why you feel the need to even bother voting at all?

Im traditionally a non-voter. But seeing, in the last weeks (on these boards), how damn serious so many are taking this, Im just checking if there is something Im missing.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by Andrew E. Wiggin

 

Thanks for your informed overview. Very helpful (for other readers as well Im sure). Starred.

i dont see no stinking star


So, has this swayed you at all? One way or another?

reply to post by vor78


here's an article that casts a completely different light.


Both candidates support NASA.