Do we really want to elect a Communist?

reply to post by SteveR


Oh boy, what part of this do you not understand?...

Socialism does not mean government or state ownership. It does not mean a closed party-run system without democratic rights. Those things are the very opposite of socialism.

"Socialism," as the American Socialist Daniel De Leon defined it, "is that social system under which the necessaries of production are owned, controlled and administered by the people, for the people, and under which, accordingly, the cause of political and economic despotism having been abolished, class rule is at end. That is socialism, nothing short of that." And we might add, nothing more than that!

Remember: If it does not fit this description, it is not socialism—no matter who says different. Those who claim that socialism existed and failed in places like Russia and China simply do not know the facts.

You have fell for the lies from those that have a vested interest in keeping the working class in their place.

reply to post by LiquidMirage


You're absolutely right. Socialism is unconstitutional. However, these Europeans have no idea of what America is all about. They beg us for help to save them from despots, but five minutes after we bail them out, they're back to condemning us for being "aggressors". I also voted for Ron Paul in the primaries, by the way.
By the way, for those who feel that the powers that be, would not "let" the wrong person get elected, maybe they should be made aware of how few people really get to "vote" for candidates. Obama won most of his delegates in CAUCUSES, where only a few THOUSAND people in an entire state, get together and decide who will be their candidate. In addition, it is no secret that the left-wing socialist press is in LOVE with Obama. Obama has NO accomplishments in the few years he's been in Congress, and his biggest accomplishment was buying his mansion in Chicago from gangster Tony Rezko at a bargain price.
As for the Americans in this thread that are so pro-communist or pro-socialist, I have a suggestion for you- MOVE TO EUROPE, if you really think that they are better off than we are. Our Founding fathers LEFT EUROPE to establish a country that was independent of foreign interests. I'm glad that we aren't going the way of Europe.

reply to post by ANOK

"Socialism," as the American Socialist Daniel De Leon

Wow, a definition from 1919. I'm sure that's really what it is currently. Of course, socialists won't tell you what socialism REALLY is because nobody would embrace it then. It is nothing more than surrender of free will to the bosses.

I will admit, I looked at the OP premise, and just jumped to the last page, to post this comment.

My comment, having not read all the pages, is: WHY is there such an anti-Obama bias???

I'm not here to advocate any of the candidates, it is just me being 'Switzerland' and asking a question: Why? Why are there far more Anti-Obama threads, here at ATS, than there are anti-McCain threads?

Admittedly, I didn't take the time to count, perhaps someone would take that to heart...but just on a quick observation, there are at least five times the anti-Obama compared to the anti-McCain threads....

I've said my piece....I hope others will contribute.

Originally posted by weedwhacker

Admittedly, I didn't take the time to count, perhaps someone would take that to heart...but just on a quick observation, there are at least five times the anti-Obama compared to the anti-McCain threads....

Not a scientific answer, but my guess on the reason for so many anti-Obama posts is a combination of many people not buying Obama's "message", and perhaps even some "paybacks are hell" for the last 9 years of literally thousands of the "Bush is a monkey", etc. posts.

You know the saying, "if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen". That seems to especially apply to the Obama supporters that seem to want to burst into tears over the treatment he is receiving - especially when it seems a great many of the people crying now about Obama were the same ones posting about Bush. If that shoe fits any of you, it is totally hypocritical.

Originally posted by LLoyd45
Most of Europe would be speaking German now if we Americans hadn't thrown our lot in to stave off the Axis forces.

* spits coffee on keyboard *

Where did you get this piece of revisionist history - CNN? I don't really think sitting on your ass for 2 1/4 years until you are attacked by Japan and Germany declares war on you as "throwing your lot in".

I'm sure the US had some small effect of ending the war sooner, but the western theatre was really a sideshow, so I have to inform you Europe should actually thank the Soviet Union. Yes... that is right... Communists, just like Barack Obama.

[edit on 2008.7.28 by cannonfodder]

Not one word of where this guy is getting his money...
surprise surprise .... that be one David Rockefeller... so why dont we elect David Rockefeller... Let VOTE DAVID ROCKEFELLER AS SURPREME BEHIND THE SCENES DICTATOR... thats what you get with OSAMA BAMA

[edit on 28-7-2008 by BornPatriot]

Waton:

As an American, I have to take you on some of what you say. I'm a liberal, so no worries, I don't think you're pure evil for plugging socialism. And let's face it, Socialism does a lot of good for people that would otherwise be screwed in a guilded-age style capitalist country (which we're not anymore, but still show remnants of to be sure).

HOWEVER,

There are some things that I have to bring up.

1) You say that we're all selfish; a third-world country with money.

Third world? I know we have our ghettos where forgotten minorities toil with low-paying jobs, drug abuse, homelessness and violent crime, but unless you came here yourself and got suckered into staying in a hotel on the South Side of Chicago, chances are you won't get shot while you're here.

I agree that many in this country (we call them neo-conservatives) have turned a blind eye to Black Americans, and especially Native Americans, but make no mistake, we also blow everyone else out of the water in terms of donation. Granted, many wealthy Americans do this in order to get a tax break, but why shouldn't they know that the 35% or so of what they make will go directly to a charitable cause?

Third world country? We have one of the highest standards of living of anywhere in the world. We have unreal amounts of worthless toys and Internet connections available to us. If you're even remotely careful with your money here, you can save up enough to live in a nice apartment or house (for little money depending on where it is), start a business, travel, buy a car, take care of a pet, buy a gun, buy jewelry, eat at a nice restaurant, become a farmer (bad idea if you want to make MORE money), invest in another house and flip it to make money, go to a top-ranked college or university for undergrad or gradute coursework, get a loan (hopefully not an adjustable rate one!), buy health insurance, buy more land, go online all day, get a job where you can sit at a ocmputer and type drivel like this, etc. etc. etc.

How are some people getting screwed?Through UN-American legislation such as drugs laws, which target decent people who have a dependent personality and give them an economic death sentence through a criminal conviction. Other than this group, minorities in general, and the mentally and psychically disabled, you've got a pretty good shot at getting ahead here. As for minorities, they even have a good shot provided they aren't being raised in a ghetto (and sadly, 85% of blacks in Chicago live with other blacks. i.e. in the ghetto).

2) Americans don't save the world? Think again.

You can say what you want about the details, but the fact is, everyone quieted down as soon as America pulled out its ace-in-the-hole death machine (the two a-bombs, of course), in addition to launching massive air and ground offenses, which three of my uncles participated in thank you very much.

Here's my question...what the hell do you guys do over there? You have Great Britain and the E.U., and here's the best part...you all complain about Darfur, as though the Americans must solve the problem immediately. Now I agree, we have turned a blind eye (boy, we certainly do that a lot don't we?), but what about you guys?

What about you guys who are, for all intents and purposes, in their hemisphere (certainly much closer than we are)?
What about you guys who have the weapons, troops and abilities, not to mention no war slogging you down (don't forget, not every single American is exactly rah rah rah over the Iraq War...see abovetopsecret.com...), yet you HYPOCRITES do nothing, NOTHING. People are dying right by you, but you EXPECT AMERICA TO FIX THE PROBLEM, even though we never solve anything, right???

Originally posted by cannonfodder

Originally posted by LLoyd45
Most of Europe would be speaking German now if we Americans hadn't thrown our lot in to stave off the Axis forces.

* spits coffee on keyboard *

Where did you get this piece of revisionist history - CNN? I don't really think sitting on your ass for 2 1/4 years until you are attacked by Japan and Germany declares war on you as "throwing your lot in".

I'm sure the US had some small effect of ending the war sooner, but the western theatre was really a sideshow, so I have to inform you Europe should actually thank the Soviet Union. Yes... that is right... Communists, just like Barack Obama.

[edit on 2008.7.28 by cannonfodder]

* My turn to spit *

It is you that is guilty of believing and then posting some of the worst examples of revisionist history I've ever seen. Ever hear of the Lend-Lease program? That "small effect on the war" actually allowed the russians to continue the fight until they could rebuild their arms factories east of the Ural mountains and out of the range of the Germans. Without that aid, the russians might now be speaking German, too. Yet you denigrate - no spit on - the sacrifices of all who gave everything - including your own countrymen. I'm sorry, but whenever I see a grossly naive post such as yours I can only think it likely came from a school-age kid that slept through their last history class.

Reply to Wotan, Part I of III:

Waton:

As an American, I have to take you on some of what you say. I'm a liberal, so no worries, I don't think you're pure evil for plugging socialism. And let's face it, Socialism does a lot of good for people that would otherwise be screwed in a guilded-age style capitalist country (which we're not anymore, but still show remnants of to be sure).

HOWEVER,

There are some things that I have to bring up.

1) You say that we're all selfish; a third-world country with money.

Third world? I know we have our ghettos where forgotten minorities toil with low-paying jobs, drug abuse, homelessness and violent crime, but unless you came here yourself and got suckered into staying in a hotel on the South Side of Chicago, chances are you won't get shot while you're here.

I agree that many in this country (we call them neo-conservatives) have turned a blind eye to Black Americans, and especially Native Americans, but make no mistake, we also blow everyone else out of the water in terms of donation. Granted, many wealthy Americans do this in order to get a tax break, but why shouldn't they know that the 35% or so of what they make will go directly to a charitable cause?

Third world country? We have one of the highest standards of living of anywhere in the world. We have unreal amounts of worthless toys and Internet connections available to us. If you're even remotely careful with your money here, you can save up enough to live in a nice apartment or house (for little money depending on where it is), start a business, travel, buy a car, take care of a pet, buy a gun, buy jewelry, eat at a nice restaurant, become a farmer (bad idea if you want to make MORE money), invest in another house and flip it to make money, go to a top-ranked college or university for undergrad or gradute coursework, get a loan (hopefully not an adjustable rate one!), buy health insurance, buy more land, go online all day, get a job where you can sit at a ocmputer and type drivel like this, etc. etc. etc.

How are some people getting screwed? Through UN-American legislation such as drugs laws, which target decent people who have a dependent personality and give them an economic death sentence through a criminal conviction. Other than this group, minorities in general, and the mentally and psychically disabled, you've got a pretty good shot at getting ahead here. As for minorities, they even have a good shot provided they aren't being raised in a ghetto (and sadly, 85% of blacks in Chicago live with other blacks. i.e. in the ghetto).

2) Americans never help save the world?

You can say what you want about the details, but the fact is, everyone quieted down as soon as America pulled out its ace-in-the-hole death machine (the two a-bombs, of course), in addition to launching massive air and ground offenses against the Nazis, which three of my Italian-American immigrant Uncles helped with thank you very much.

The a-bomb represented a terrible loss of life and a grave setback in human relations in general, but what else could be done to stop a country that was doing everything it could to help Hitler rise to power? Sure, the Soviets helped out big time, but why does everyone insist that America did next to nothing? We avoided helping out because *gasp* we're about non-interventionism because it CREATES PROBLEMS. But when we saw innocent Europeans getting bombed, we decided to help, and our foreign policy has been interventionist ever since. Imagine what you would be saying in this forum if we had amassed as much money as we have and didn't ever help out when asked?



[edit on 28-7-2008 by Crimson1285]

Reply to Wotan; Part II of III:

Here's my question...what the heck do you guys do over there? You have Great Britain and the E.U., and here's the best part...you all complain about Darfur, as though the Americans must solve the problem immediately. Now I agree, we have turned a blind eye (boy, we certainly do that a lot don't we?), but what about you guys?

Where were you during Kosovo, or Bosnia, when Kardziac killed thousands? It was on YOUR continent on YOUR side of the planet, yet we crossed the pond and led the offensive, like we always do even if we do it for money or oil at times.

What about you guys who are, for all intents and purposes, in their hemisphere (certainly much closer than we are)?
What about you guys who have the weapons, troops and abilities, not to mention no war slogging you down (don't forget, not every single American is exactly rah rah rah over the Iraq War...see abovetopsecret.com...), yet you HYPOCRITES do nothing, NOTHING. People are dying right by you, but you EXPECT AMERICA TO FIX THE PROBLEM, even though we never solve anything, right?

Wrong. There is a reason that even though our dollar is sunk and we're in massive debt, there hasn't been a crash yet (granted, there almost assuredly will be one soon, then we'll be that third world country you alluded to earlier). That reason is TRUST. Other countries, like yours, trust the U.S. to stand on its own two feet because, by and large, it does.

Before you stop reading in anger and rage, please do continue, as I am about to define exactly what it is about our "crazy" American values that make them so special, even to a "trendy lefty" like myself.

1) Guns. Our Constitution has an amendment - the second to be exact - which enables individuals to carry firearms in the event that the government cracks down and becomes a monarchy...you know, like your country, that we didn't want to be a part of anymore.

Now I'm no hunter by any means (although I'll be hanging around with my friends that hunt a lot more if Great Depression Part Deux goes down!), but why should that keep my friends who like to hunt from having options? Now I'll admit, handguns are trouble, they really are. A rifle is a defensive/hunting weapon whereas a handgun is purely offensive. You don't need a handgun to defend your homestead, you need a rifle (I have shot a gun and rifle before, incidentally, just never hunted). Of course, our Supreme Court just made that argument easy on me by declaring that handguns can no longer be banned in any city, pushing back legislation in cities like Washington, D.C. where guns are banned.

2) Taxation. Why do all these AboveTopSecret people hate taxes so much? Why are they such whiners? Oh yea, maybe because taxation on the federal level is NOT LEGAL according to our Constitution. No taxation without representation is what we demanded, but we wrote the laws such that taxation could not exist, yet it does, and a lot of people are pissed off about it.

Now I don't mind taxation, but consider this (you conservatives better be thankful, I'm really going out on a limb with this section), what do you need to make businesses grow? Capital. When you tax capital gains (i.e. capital gains tax), you choke small business, which is what we Americans (NOT neo-cons like G.W.) like to see prosper.

What I will say in your defense waton, is that you guys spend your taxes on something we really are too infantile to understand: an efficient transportation system. We Americans are so in love with driving our fossil-burning horseless carriages out to the suburbs and our McMansions it's sickening, and you can't tell people that or else they think you're a communist (and I LOVE cars, I work on them a lot), but the fact reamins: if we had half as good of a public transport system as you guys do, we'd be able to ride out this storm a lot better, but I digress.

[edit on 28-7-2008 by Crimson1285]

[edit on 28-7-2008 by Crimson1285]

[edit on 28-7-2008 by Crimson1285]

Reply to Wotan; Part III of IV apparently:

3) Healthcare. I won't go in-depth on this. All I'll say is that I used to be pro-universal healthcare until I realized a few things talking to nurses, practiioners, and being in a Master of Public Affairs Program at a major state university: we can't afford it, period.

Why not? Well, we sort of have this thing called Social Security, which everyone pays into here their whole lives so that they can collect money after they're too old to work. It was started decades ago, but now it's going broke with the large increase in population here. So between that, our military (which is always kept in good condition lest we need to save the world again), and "pork-barrel spending" (where legislation is written that benefits one particular area but everyone pays for it) among MANY other things G.W. and others spend money on, have it so that we cannot afford to just GIVE insurance to 300+ million people, a significant number of whom are here illegally and temporarlily. Also, we're a BIG country, and a federal watchdog system just would not be efficient. A hybrid system perhaps, but not universal healthcare. That simply could not happen.

I myself have had to pay an unisured medical bill, and it hurt, but I worked double shifts for 5 weeks straight at a low-paying food service job until I had the money and paid it off on time with no hurt to my credit history.

My friend's dad owns a small business. If there's universal healthcare, he's done. He cannot afford to give insurance to every single employee, and most employees going into an establishment like his (hardware store) do not expect insurance unless they're in a managerial or higher-hour position.

4) We dwell on history. Of course we do, because Americans love our history. Except for the scar of slavery (which many other countries are guilty of also, just not quite as late as us in most instances), we have a history to be proud of.

Here's the best way I can explain why our system/constitution is superior to all others, if only by a small margin (and I think it's a wide margin):

-Our consitution has a set of 10 amendments called the "Bill of Rights", which every American citizen may use at any time (well, nix that since G.W., but as a general rule they work).

-Our consitution is designed so that no one may seize control except the masses, EVER. Hence the 2nd amendment. You can call that crazy, but what you should understand is that the perspective of most Americans is different than others countries. Other countries want to have their government help out everybody equally with the idea that people will prosper if they don't have to worry about such things as healthcare costs or buying a car to get around.

-But the average American would prefer the FREEDOM to choose whether or not to give to the poor (many do through Churches and social groups), whether or not to own a large parcel of land with minimal investment compared to many other countries, whether or not to overthrow their government because they're abusing their power, whether or not to become rich quick through real estate investing, opening a small business on a whim with few problems other than raising capital...basically Americans want choices. Now I'll admit, the younger generations here are so molly-coddled that they expect everything to be handed to them even though their parents were the ones doing the work, but still, the idea is there.

reply to post by Wotan


Reply to Wotan; Part IV of IV

If you want to be angry at someone, be angry at Reagan. He was the one who pushed the War on Drugs which has incarcerated black Americans to the point that they cannot work because no one wants to hire a drug felon, and he was also the one who promoted the idea (albeit, between the lines) that you should step on your nieghbors, friends, and everyone who works for you in order to get as rich as you want and then not be taxed once you become rich. Everyone is this country is brainwashed into thinking that Reagan was great when he was probably the cause of most of our problems today. He encourage Americans to be spoiled brats so our GDP would go up and more money would flow through U.S. based businesses, thus making America richer than everyone else. What he failed to realize is that simply being rich isn't enough, you have to build a base of hard-workers and keep them wealthy. The gap between rich and poor grew wildly under Reagan. Reagan's reign saw big-box malls, the growth of suburbia and individualism, and the overuse and obsession with worthless trinkets and vanity. Many workers were laid off because of his union busting and drug laws, which have helped to create the terrible ghettos that exist here today, especially where I am. This is to say nothing of REX-84, Operation Garden Polt, and other constitution-burning projects he oversaw.

Ronald Wilson Reagan (6-6-6) is the reason that Americans are regarded as spoiled, because he got the poor to become obsessed with material possessions rather than with going to their factory jobs and meeting their neighbors at Church or the Friday fish fry. He's the reason whites flocked to the suburbs, creating a mass dependence on oil and fast food, in order to avoid the inner cities which, unlike Europe, are more dangerous than the 'burbs. Sorry, but I had to knock Reagan. If everyone and their brother, sister, dog, and second cousin didn't think he was the Jesus of America then I wouldn't rant about him as much.

5) "You yanks need to travel and not get information from the Internet." (paraphrased, not exact)

I've been to Europe, three or four times. I've been all over Italy (I'm half Italian) and to London twice (and half Welch). I have family and friends in other countries like Spain and France. Again, you guys have a public transportation system that's the best I've ever seen. But aside from that, you live in smaller living areas because you have less land available, you have a population that is certainly larger than ours (E.U. = 499 million + U.K. vs. U.S. = 300+ million), and so you have to be more economical. We do not. Yet, in spite of this, so many Americans have jumped on the Green bandwagon...why? Because we're not cruel, heartless people! We're good decent folk who are paranoid that no other country has managed to be founded on the principles of total liberty (again, I know, slavery, but still) and that people like you still think we're part of the problem when, realistically, we hurt ourselves in this country more than anyone else. War does result in innocent deaths, yes. And yes, we're in an oil war because our oil President wants to cause trouble. But as a general rule, if we didn't fight dictators then who would?

You? I doubt it, you can't even buy a gun

Singed,

A proud American (and most people wouldn't even call me proud enough)

Since I def. just broke a rule or two by ranting about something other than the topic (hey, Wotan started it, America just had to get its two-cents in), I guess I should say something about Obama and Communism.

First of all, I read the link and, whomever posted this thread, please note that when the U.S. Government in 1951 calls you a Communist, that in no way means that you're a Communist. Have you forgotten about the McCarthy hearings in which many innocent Americans were accused of Communism? If you're angry about the way in which the government of today has stripped peple of their rights by setting up Gitmo, etc., then you definitely have no right to bring up a Communist dissident list and use it as proof that one of Obama's mentors was a Commie and, thus so is he.

I'll admit, however, that he says some Communist things that freak me out. I don't like McCain, but I probably won't be voting for Obama anymore (I was going to, it seemed like a great idea at first). Too bad Ron Paul lost the primary, because in my opinion, either one of these candidates will take away our rights in a Communist-style way. The difference is that one will use global cooperation as the rationale while the other will use war.

reply to post by weedwhacker


the reason there is anti Obama bias is because Obama is a substanceless fraud. that makes certain people very angry. he goes around talking about hope and change in pure political speak devoid of any real meaning. he is a good speaker so he has huge masses of people brainwashed into thinking he is the second coming of the christ child.

or as i like to call it, sippin the obama koolaide.

at least mccain dosnt even pretend there is anysubstance to his campiagn...
does mccain even believe himself when he talks?
what a dismal election year.

Americans are not very bright in general ,Thats because they have been fed a heavy dose of propaganda all their lives. and their educational systems is bottom rung for most Americans.


They see Europe still through the eyes of ww2 ,they have a foggy view at best.

Though only 2 out of 7 Americans can even locate Europe on the map
let alone have a sensible view of Europe.

An example of this propaganda is how Hollywood ( the propaganda machine) has made most Americans think they single handedly won ww2

that it was America that saved Europe from the despots

While reality is that, while Britain stood down the whole German army,
American Communists were in the streets , the vast American public was
dead against raising a finger to help anyone.

in reality their own despot goaded Japan into attacking them in order to get the cowards in America to stand up and fight like men .

this is the reality that few Americans like to hear, because it confounds the
Propaganda filled bubbles they exist in.

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
reply to post by Wotan

 

Several of his mentors were card carrying members of the communist party of the US.
As for socialism, yes, most Americans despise it. This country was founded on the principles of working hard to get ahead, not working hard so that someone who doesn't work hard, can benefit from your work. It does not mean that we don't believe in helping those, who through no fault of their own, are in dire straights. However, in the US, there are millions on welfare, because they are simply too lazy to work.
In addition, Obama's ideas are at best naive, at worst dangerous. Disarming a nation, in hopes that regimes like Iran and North Korea will follow, is extremely foolish. Yet, that is exactly what Obama wants. England, of all countries should understand that. Just look at Chamberlain and what his "peace in our time" lead to. Fortunately, a great man, Churchill stepped onto the stage to save the day.

Just to correct you, Socialism is about the organization of workers for workers rights. It's not about giving free rides to anyone. It is about checking whichever capitlists are in power at the time and providing for the labor force.

Socialism came about during a time when factories were filled with children working 12 hour days and becoming alchoholics at age 11 and 12.

Socialism is not ANTI WORK. It is PRO-WORKER.

Originally posted by TheRepublic
reply to post by weedwhacker

 

the reason there is anti Obama bias is because Obama is a substanceless fraud. that makes certain people very angry. he goes around talking about hope and change in pure political speak devoid of any real meaning. he is a good speaker so he has huge masses of people brainwashed into thinking he is the second coming of the christ child.

or as i like to call it, sippin the obama koolaide.

at least mccain dosnt even pretend there is anysubstance to his campiagn...
does mccain even believe himself when he talks?
what a dismal election year.

Mcain and clinton are no better than obama on substance
there is no substance
until you hear Lyndon Larouche Ron Paul and denis Kucinich Mike Gravel

All of which Americans said no too
Americans do not want substance they want smooth talkers,pretty faces and
of course the warmongers and fat cats are always on the ticket in America


Heres a short Video of how informed and wise American voters are

video.google.ca...

One voter said he was going to vote for Hilton !

Originally posted by Crimson1285
Since I def. just broke a rule or two by ranting about something other than the topic (hey, Wotan started it, America just had to get its two-cents in)

Actually I never started it if you look back to the beginning of the thread. I was merely defending against the ''I am American and I am right Brigade''.