Do we really want to elect a Communist?

Communism explicitly requires a long and protracted period of capitalism, this will result in a concentration of resources into the hands of the few which result in wide spread misery with the resultant outcome being a redistribution of resources and the means of production based on community needs. Communism was never intended to be realised before man could resolve his complete control over nature (which we really only achieved in that last two decades) . Something Sigmund Freud agreed with in the clash of civilisations where by our innate death drive could only ever be over come by a similar situation.

The red menace put forward by Stalin and McCarthy-ism are in no way reflective of the theoretical proposals of Marx. His ideas are yet to be realised and the current collapse of the U.S. economy is perhaps the closest portent to his thinking we have yet seen.

The shibboleths, stereotypes and urban myths of communism hyped by american celluloid and government propaganda are but a gossamer reflection of the complexities involved in Marx's theories.

So remember, Communism can never be imposed as an actual political system as attempted by lenin, stalin and others, rather it is a natural cultural evolutionary social process which we are still going through.

Your understanding on these issues as always is diaphanous at best - despite your best intentions (looking left here).

I encourage you all to read on this issue.

Companies from smaller countries being bought by bigger companies from bigger countries is just wonderful signs of the times, us moving forward toward a future with megacompanies controlling everything. Has more to do with the open market than politics.

Good morning, citizens of Coca Cola land, and welcome to a new prosperous day. You have the right to wear arms, but if you show any signs of subversive thought processes you will disappear into camps for crimes against the state. Oh wait, thats hardly sci-fi, thats the way it is today.

reply to post by audas


You are wrong...but I don't want to turn this into a pissing contest or be off topic so you can believe what you want...I don't care...

European Governments have been saying for 10/20 years that they will be bust in 10/20 years time and they will still be saying that in 10/20 years time.

For UK residents, the US is way down the list of countries they are emigrating to.

I never said there was no poor in the UK.

Originally posted by ANOK
Hitler was not a socialist (yes some people do think this).

I guess when Hitler writes about German socialism as the way forward that counts for nothing. Where do you get your facts from? Anywhere? Or did you make it up because it reflects the way you want to see the world? They are called National Socialists for a reason. It is because they exerted massive control on the market and infrastructure. The Nazis intended government to be the absolute architect of German life and society. Anok, I get the impression when you use the word socialism you really meant communism.

Please read:

Nazi publications and speeches included anti-capitalist (especially anti-finance capitalist) rhetoric. Hitler attacked what he called ''pluto-democracy,'' which he claimed to be a Jewish conspiracy to favor democratic parties in order to keep capitalism intact. The ''corporation'' was attacked by orthodox Nazis as being the leading instrument of finance capitalism, with the role of Jews emphasized. The National Socialist party described itself as socialist, and, at the time, conservative opponents such as the Industrial Employers Association described it as ''totalitarian, terrorist, conspiratorial, and socialist.''

Originally posted by ANOK
Russia, not socialist.

That's right, Russia's means of production have never been state owned. Work was never managed by the state. Business was private and free, wealth was available to those who would pursue it.

The economy of the Soviet Union was based on a system of state ownership, administrative planning, socialist competition and unfree labour. The Soviet Union created the modern world's first centrally planned economy. They dispensed almost entirely with private ownership of capital. Workers were still, however, effectively paid a wage for their labour. A farm, mine or factory was judged on the basis of whether its production met the quota. It would be provided with a quota of the inputs it needed to start production, and then its quota of output would be taken away and given to downstream production units or distributed to consumers.

Is it that you have a different definition of the word socialism than the dictionaries? And when you read it, are you understanding it right? Socialism is the opposite of capitalism. It is not communism at all, communism is by design stateless.

Originally posted by NorthWolfe CND

Originally posted by Wotan
A society (country) who cannot look after its own people, ie the poor, is not a society at all, hence the US is a Third World country with money.

You tell me if it is right to let your own citizens suffer?

The American working person is the most exploited and downtrodden in the Western World ...... if thats your idea of the American Dream, you can keep it. I'll stay my side of the pond.

As someone has pointed out, look to the Northern European/Scandinavian countries and you will see that their standards of living are far higher than Americas.

In the UK we have a 37.5 hr week, a minimum wage, 4 weeks minimum annual leave entitlement plus bank holidays, maternity and paternity leave, sick leave entitlement, a National Health Service - all for a tax of approximately 1/3 of total income. 70% of the population own their own homes.

I am not saying that our (European) system is perfect, but I would rather be poor in Europe than poor in America.

I know most of the UK, are you telling me that there are no poor in the UK, and that everybody is taken care of??? (I own a house in Plymouth)

No, the European is, that is why there is very little social escalation in most of Europe, that is why so many people from Europe, and the UK, come to America.

My native Canada has standards of living higher then they do and, as you must know this system is increasingly being turned away from, since Swedish, Danish and Dutch companies started going under or moving elsewhere. (Also note the unemployment rate in those countries)

For how long will you have the Welfare state? Most European Governments I have talked to expect the system to be bust in 10 to 20 years. As you know, the age of retirement is being increased, in almost every country, from three to five years (here, in Portugal you have to work 5 more years before you can retire). Thus, many pensioners in European countries will be dead, or in their last years, when they become eligible for their pensions.
As for the unemployment rates, Spain ~16%; France and Germany ~12%, UK (specially grievous in Scotland) ~8 or 9%....

Europe has many systems, to which are you referring?

As for being unemployed I totally agree with you (UK vs. USA), but again in depends on the country you live in...And it is also a question of mentality, like a Briton born, or raised, under "Old" Labor you always think of unemployment as the basis for your theory, Americans, on the other hand, think of giving the lest they can to their Government...

When referring to a country please state it's name, since I have no knowledge of a country called Europe...even thou I have traveled throw most of the Continent, and have houses in some countries...

Sweden: Saab - gone under, now belong to Ford MC (US firm)
Volvo - gone under, now belongs to GM (US firm)
Ericsson - gone under, now Sony/Ericsson ( Japanese firm)
After threatening the Swedish Government, with moving to another country, it got special tax exemptions...
Welfare State - Actually a Canadian model implemented after WW2, will be bankrupt, at this rate of Government expansions, between 2015 and 2018, according to the mildly right new Swedish Government...
Unemployment rate nearing 15% (according to The Financial Times)...

Just an example of what I am saying...

i have never read such parochial clap trap - please. You know nothing of Europe - and Canada does not even get a look in as far as human health and well being indicators are concerned compared to many EU nations ESPECIALLY the Scandinavians stop being so thorough disingenuous (rather totally ignorant - you sound American).

You mention Ford and GM - two manufacturers which went on a buying spree in the late 80's for SAAB, Alfa, Jaguar and only ended up with one - now they are almost compltely bankrupt and have been repeatedly bailed out - while Asian car manufactures like Toyota have enough cpaital (CASH) to buy the top 8 global car manufacturers out right -

FORD and GM are not even a blip compared to BMW, Mercedes, Porche, Puegot,Fiat, Ferrari, etc,etc,etc Yet alone NOKIA !

Canada does NOT have the highest standard of living, does NOT almost always come first and as a matter of fact is a long way behind Australia which is a long behind many european nations.

Utter Garbage.

See you at the Olympics or Commonewealth games nightwold where we will as always demonstrate how comprehensively we will smash you - ooooops - parochialism rears its god awful head.

Originally posted by NorthWolfe CND
reply to post by audas

 

You are wrong...but I don't want to turn this into a pissing contest or be off topic so you can believe what you want...I don't care...

Some who does not know the first thing they are talking about is not going to tell me I am wrong. You are ignorant in the extreme.

reply to post by jerico65


I can tell you are much happier with [the concept of] corporate welfare for the wealthy- after all, the overclass are so much more deserving of public welfare than those nasty poor folk.
America is finished, just stick a fork in it.

reply to post by audas


You must have been referring to this, which is, to any serious economist, no more then a pissing contest:

2007 Per capita income PPP

1 Luxembourg 80,800 2007 est.
2 Qatar 75,900 2007 est.
3 Norway 55,600 2007 est.
4 Kuwait 55,300 2007 est.
5 United Arab Emirates 55,200 2007 est.
6 Singapore 48,900 2007 est.
7 United States 46,000 2007 est.
8 Ireland 45,600 2007 est.
9 Equatorial Guinea 44,100 2007 est.
10 Switzerland 39,800 2007 est.
11 Iceland 39,400 2007 est.
12 Austria 39,000 2007 est.
13 Andorra 38,800 2005
14 Netherlands 38,600 2007 est.
15 Canada 38,200 2007 est.
16 Australia 37,500 2007 est.
17 Denmark 37,400 2007 est.
18 Sweden 36,900 2007 es

Looks like the USA isn't doing that bad...
The only real Scandinavian country ahead of Canada is Norway, maybe because of low population and huge oil revenues...
I also don't rate the gulf states because they have almost no population, most of the people living there are from the subcontinent and palestinians...

But like I said before, this means nothing...

Originally posted by NorthWolfe CND

since Swedish, Danish and Dutch companies started going under or moving elsewhere. (Also note the unemployment rate in those countries)

Currently for work in The Netherlands. Unemployment rate is for April-June 2008 is 4%.. something wrong with that? Besides the fact that it was 3.2% last year?

NO - this is something morons drag up repeatedly - I would be referring to United Nations reports on human health, wealth well being - basically real indicators which determine human well being - do some research and find out mate. You look thoroughly stupid with your Canadian pontificating.

There are a myriad of indicators out there to provide meaningful insight into the state of nations well being - literally dozens. No one is denying that Canada does better than the U.S. or Portugal - but get off your high horse in relation to some of the most socially advanced nations on Earth - Canada is not even in the same ball park - no where near it.

It is just embarrassing to listen to someone pump their own horn - really is the most boring, ignorant, socially inept form of intellect. Really is.

You may love your country, and yes it is doing well, but realise its fallibility and be realistic where it is and above all - respect those who really are leading the world in the types of demographics.

As i said, Australia is without doubt the richest nation on earth if you move beyond mere GDP indicators and take in all other human well being stats - without doubt - yet I as an Australian find this abhorrent - it completely denies the reality of our foriegn policy, green credentials, treatment of indigenous, income gaps, etc,etc,etc

Parochialism and nationalism is for the birds - it is genuinely base behaviour of the intellectually restricted - and should never be the basis of any intelligent communication.

The world is at war because of it.

I do not like Barack Obama. I will not vote for him, I'll be voting for Bob Barr. However, Barack is not a communist. He heavily leans towards socialist ideology, but he can't/won't go that far because in order to get elected and not cause mass riots he must remain centrist.

Yes,,, more than another half baked idiot!

[edit on 28-7-2008 by mental modulator]

Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
I do not like Barack Obama. I will not vote for him, I'll be voting for Bob Barr. However, Barack is not a communist. He heavily leans towards socialist ideology, but he can't/won't go that far because in order to get elected and not cause mass riots he must remain centrist.

Yes ALD- I think Mccain is an idiot... believe it or not I like Barr just like you!

Originally posted by mirador

Originally posted by NorthWolfe CND

since Swedish, Danish and Dutch companies started going under or moving elsewhere. (Also note the unemployment rate in those countries)

Currently for work in The Netherlands. Unemployment rate is for April-June 2008 is 4%.. something wrong with that? Besides the fact that it was 3.2% last year?

Sorry, my mistake, I was looking at the figures from another country...

In the three months through April, Dutch unemployment slipped to a seasonally adjusted rate of 5.7%, down one-tenth of a percent from the 5.8% y/y rate booked in the three months January to March, thus signaling that the fall in unemployment that began mid-last year continues apace.

Currently, official Dutch Government statistics put the Dutch unemployment rate at ~4%...

My wrong!!!

Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
I do not like Barack Obama. I will not vote for him, I'll be voting for Bob Barr. However, Barack is not a communist. He heavily leans towards socialist ideology, but he can't/won't go that far because in order to get elected and not cause mass riots he must remain centrist.

Well considered post - nice for a change - Barrack is also not a moderate - his stance on Middle East, Israel, Iran is deeply troubling. Anyone who has read is piece in Foreign Affairs magazine can testify to.

Originally posted by NorthWolfe CND

Originally posted by mirador

Originally posted by NorthWolfe CND

since Swedish, Danish and Dutch companies started going under or moving elsewhere. (Also note the unemployment rate in those countries)

Currently for work in The Netherlands. Unemployment rate is for April-June 2008 is 4%.. something wrong with that? Besides the fact that it was 3.2% last year?

Sorry, my mistake, I was looking at the figures from another country...

In the three months through April, Dutch unemployment slipped to a seasonally adjusted rate of 5.7%, down one-tenth of a percent from the 5.8% y/y rate booked in the three months January to March, thus signaling that the fall in unemployment that began mid-last year continues apace.

Currently, official Dutch Government statistics put the Dutch unemployment rate at ~4%...

My wrong!!!

You will also find that these countries do not abuse the system (like Australia and Canada) and include figures for those seeking work - Our Countries "massage" these stats to remove anyone who has part time work, home workers, carers, vocational training etc,etc,etc - the Scandanavians see no benefit to their society in doing so as it simply cooks the books. (much like inflation - house prices are not included, essential services such as fuel ).

The reality in the US and UK is grim indeed -

Originally posted by NorthWolfe CND

My wrong!!!

No problem.

When it comes to Obama, I'm scared of his fairly strong words re. Iran, etc.

But the alternative.... is not an option either imho.

John McCain's Neverending War
www.youtube.com...

reply to post by Wotan


Our citizens "suffer"? Where did you hear that, NPR? Yes, we have some poor people BUT the majority of Americans seem to be doing pretty d*** good. Our biggest problem right now is fuel prices which in my opinion is just an inconvenience more than anything. Tomorrow when I get up, I'll think about how good you have it as I'm debating which car to back out of the driveway of my 3000sf home. I'll think about how much better off I'd be in London, leaving my flat to walk down a security camera infested street in the rain to my tube stop.

So you don't like Americans. Fine. Who cares. Get over it. Why do you insist on bashing America because we don't want a socialist system like the UK, EU or whatever entity you have sold your culture out to this decade?

Originally posted by slicobacon
reply to post by Wotan

 

Our citizens "suffer"? Where did you hear that, NPR? Yes, we have some poor people BUT the majority of Americans seem to be doing pretty d*** good. Our biggest problem right now is fuel prices which in my opinion is just an inconvenience more than anything. Tomorrow when I get up, I'll think about how good you have it as I'm debating which car to back out of the driveway of my 3000sf home. I'll think about how much better off I'd be in London, leaving my flat to walk down a security camera infested street in the rain to my tube stop.

So you don't like Americans. Fine. Who cares. Get over it. Why do you insist on bashing America because we don't want a socialist system like the UK, EU or whatever entity you have sold your culture out to this decade?

Excuse me, Where did I say that I do not like Americans, eh! I am not bashing America par se, the thread is about Communism/Socialism etc and the way the US sees them as opposed to the rest of the world. The US is still living with Macarthyism.

As for 'selling out' this decade - The UK has been evolving social policys since the 1800's when the US was still wetting itself, metaphorically speaking.