The Questions U.F.O. skeptics can't answer

Originally posted by riggs2099
reply to post by re22666

 

So you are both saying that you have personally been in contact with an alien race and have touched them. Is this what you are telling me. By your logic I have to touch or see pluto with my own eyes in order to take the data seriously, then does that not also go for aliens. For the last time to use these as an example is stupid...how many qualified people have reports on these things such as pluto or an atom..and how many qualified people do the alien believers have three or four compared to what thousands of qualified professionals. I am not taking one experts word on these but hundreds if not thousands of experts words.

[edit on 29-7-2008 by riggs2099]Answer me about the experts.

[edit on 29-7-2008 by riggs2099]

Originally posted by polomontana
What rules of logic are you talking about?

Are you in college? You keep bringing up these rules of logic. It sounds like something you may have heard from some Professor and you keep repeating.

Could you quote the rules of logic? Provide a source please.

It seems you missed some of the lessons about the rules of logic.

I see what the problem here is. You've never formally been introduced to Critical Thinking. I'll ignore the comment that I must have missed some of those rules, seeing as how you didn't even know they existed

There are rules of engagement when it comes to having logical debates. One of the first rules is that the person who makes a claim is responsible for proving that claim. It is not the responsibility of the opponent to prove the opposite of that claim. What the opponent does is demonstrate why the claim, or the reasoning behind that claim, is false on its own merit. That would be why I've kept saying over and over again that it's not the skeptic's responsibility to provide "counter" evidence. Think of it this way: you only deal with one set of evidence: that which the proponent brings to the table in order to prove his claim. Also remember this: the skeptic is not necessarily taking the opposite position of the believer; he simply lacks that belief, and requires proof in order to belief it.

Here's a general link to get started:

atheism.about.com...

You don't come to a debate and claim you don't have to have any evidence. It sounds silly and you can get laughed out of the room for saying things like this.

Actually, you do. See above. Remember, if you make a claim, evidence is your responsibility, not mine. All I have to do is demonstrate reasonably why your evidence is insufficient to support your claim.

You only offer opinion. No evidence to rebutt the evidence that I have presented.

That's not true. Read up on logical arguments and you'll see where I have quite clearly refuted your evidence.

You call things unsound faster than I can cook a Hot Pocket.

Erroneous. The time it takes to refute something bears nothing on the validity of that refutation.

You seem to be wrapped up in this term rules of logic while presenting an illogical argument.

Again, read up on logic. You'll see that I've ONLY been employing logic here.

Originally posted by riggs2099
reply to post by Malevolent_Aliens

 

Uhh why should I seek medical

Because you believe there are thousands and thousands of people being abducted worldwide all sharing the exact same delusions and experiences of being on a ship with alien beings and getting implants then somehow having implants found and removed physically from their body? You believe this was all a dream and mere coincidence, this is why you should===>

SEEK MEDICAL HELP

[edit on 29-7-2008 by Malevolent_Aliens]

Why is it you use stories of alien contact as fact when they are theory and that there is no proof to back any of it up. The only proof that can be attained is that there are a lot mental disorders out there, this is the only fact...and if they are not mental disorders than what are they.....they could be anything including alien abductiions yet there is no solid proof to that fact. Have you done every available test possible to make sure you are not suffering from anything. Have you taken all these tests to rule mental disorder out. There are abundant amount of tests to prvoe this. Then once they are ruled out then there are one of three possibilities, very vivid dream, making it up for attention or alien abductions.

Originally posted by polomontana
I notice you like to use the word red herring also.

But your underlying argument makes no sense.

Of course these things can be subjectively proven.

Prove these things have an objective existence.

Think about it and that's how silly you sound when asking someone to prove these things. Nobody has said they are out to prove to skeptics that these things exist.

That's another mistake.

polomontana,

Read the link I provided. You'll see that red herring is the name of a logical fallacy. In other words, it's a form of irrational thinking when someone pulls in ancillary examples in efforts to shirk the topic at hand. So every time you started talking about black holes and quantum theory in an effort to say, because you cannot prove these things, I don't have to prove aliens exist, you were using a red herring. It's nothing more than a cop out. It's like saying, "Well, Bob doesn't have to wash the dishes, so why should I?"

Secondly, how on earth are you going to subjectively prove that Pluto exists? Are you going to fly there tomorrow? I doubt it. I think you have your subjective and objective switched around.

Finally, you keep tossing about charges for me to prove things. I don't have to. Once you read up on logic, you'll understand this.

If you tell me that Santa Claus exists, and I say, I don't believe you, prove it, it's like your argument is to therefore say, "well, prove that evolution is real."

Never mind the fact that evolution has much more evidence for support than Santa Claus. The point is that you are trying to escape the burden of proof by referencing outside material that cannot be proven, but has been proven scientifically to be highly probable. You're dodging.

Please tell me you understand this.

reply to post by Malevolent_Aliens

Where exactly are you getting your numbers from because I would like to see this number myself. Why have we only heard of a handful and the not the thousands of you keep screaming about.



[edit on 29-7-2008 by riggs2099]

Originally posted by Malevolent_Aliens
Because you believe there are thousands and thousands of people being abducted worldwide all sharing the exact same delusions and experiences of being on a ship with alien beings and getting implants then somehow having implants found and removed physically from their body? You believe this was all a dream and mere coincidence, this is why you should===>

Do you have any real statistics of the numbers of these implants being removed?

Thousands and thousands of people believe in any number of things (look at religion). This is proof of nothing, other than thousands and thousands of people being capable of believing the same thing.

reply to post by thrashee


I know about logic and reason and I figured you got your talking points from a professor but it's even worse. You got them from this website and that's why your arguments are so illogical.

I have read that site before and it basically tells you to deny everything that you may not agree with.

You don't have any evidence to support your assertions. According to this you only need your opinion.

The fallacy in trying to obtain logic from websites like these is you just repeat the same things.

You keep saying rules of logic that you lifted of some website that directing you not to debate but keep sticking to the same sentences over and over.

Your better off taking a class.

Again, when you get some evidence then hopefully we can have a debate and I don't have to debate repeated mantra's from a website.

Read this article on alien abductions and possible answers. It's from The New York Times.
query.nytimes.com...
and this one that says hundreds not thousands

psychologytoday.com...
there are just too many other possible explainations for alien abductions to be true.

[edit on 29-7-2008 by riggs2099]

[edit on 29-7-2008 by riggs2099]

Again,

This is not the example of a red herring.

The logical fallacy in the argument is that you can't prove any of these things exist.

There's more evidence for these things than there is for black holes.

Where the pictures of black holes?

Where's the physical evidence that supports black holes?

Where's the pictures of virtual particles?

Are you telling me you accept these things because alot of people are telling you about them?

How do you know we are on Mars?

How do you know people are on the space station?

You don't.

It's called a Reductio Ad Absurdum.

It's an absurb argument that's used to prove an underlying point.

You can't prove any of these things exist.

reply to post by polomontana


Ugh Logical fallacy. Can you not see that there are thousands of experts out there that will tell you pluto or an atom exist not just a few. The alien believers only have few experts in the field of science to go along with them while the other ones, like pluto, atoms or anything else you may have count thousands of experts to go along with these facts.

Originally posted by riggs2099
Why is it you use stories of alien contact as fact when they are theory and that there is no proof to back any of it up. The only proof that can be attained is that there are a lot mental disorders out there, this is the only fact...and if they are not mental disorders than what are they.....they could be anything including alien abductiions yet there is no solid proof to that fact. Have you done every available test possible to make sure you are not suffering from anything. Have you taken all these tests to rule mental disorder out. There are abundant amount of tests to prvoe this. Then once they are ruled out then there are one of three possibilities, very vivid dream, making it up for attention or alien abductions.

YAWN,

As clearly as I am sitting here now typing on this keyboard and know I am awake and experienceing it I also know I experienced what I did along with other members of my family. I have since dedicated my entire life 23yrs ago to helping other abductees, we are in contact with a world wide abduction network and community that specifically investigates and helps abductees. We have a number of web-sites that work with these issues.

You are simply not hearing about aliens and abductions in your daily life so are not used to hearing about it as the reality is it has not been advertised and been a well kept hidden secret from the public. Why do you think there are so many hoaxes to be found in the ufo community because someone intentionally puts them there to destroy all credibility of the real cases.

That is why you claim there are many hoaxes out there and no evidence but yet there is if you search for it. I'm sure your just standing on the side-lines but have never really done the research for yourself I know grey alien beings exist beyond a shadow of a doubt with no question in my mind the same physical way I know I am here now typing on this keyboard. I am done here, nothing more to say or debate. Do your own homework and seek the evidence, it is out there if you look.

TA TA!

And yet another study done on alien abductions. A very good study. Read it all. You probably won't because it may point out something you are not willing to accept.
findarticles.com...

Originally posted by polomontana

I know about logic and reason and I figured you got your talking points from a professor but it's even worse. You got them from this website and that's why your arguments are so illogical.

Oh my God. You really are beyond reason. Just because I like demonstrating my grasp of logic while you flounder, I'll demonstrate yet another logical fallacy you made just in what you said above:

1. I got my talking points from a website
2. Because I got my talking points from a website, my arguments are illogical.

First of all, your premise (a premise is akin to an assumption that you use to begin a logical debate; I'm telling you this because we both know good and well you haven't the first clue about formal logic) that I got my ideas of logic from a website is unsupported. In layman's terms, you're making an assumption here. Bad, bad, idea.

Secondly, your conclusion, that because I got my ideas of logic from this website my arguments are illogical, is also unsupported. It does not follow.

Now, if you demonstrated, let's say, through another argument, that said website contained bad logic or did not explain logic accurately, THEN your conclusion MIGHT follow, but ONLY if I did, in fact, get my ideas of logic from said website.

Are you following me here? (Something tells me you're not. This is where you call logic illogical.)

You don't have any evidence to support your assertions. According to this you only need your opinion.

No. I don't know if it's just that you're pretending not to understand this, or you're serious.....slow. I don't need evidence. I don't need opinion. All I need to be able to do is--using logic, using reason--demonstrate why your evidence does or does not support your claim.

You can call a logical demonstration "opinion" all you want to. You can sit there and claim that I haven't provided "evidence" when no evidence is required. Keep doing those things.

The fallacy in trying to obtain logic from websites like these is you just repeat the same things.

Should I logically break this statement down, or put it into picture-menu form for you? I'm not "trying to obtain logic from websites". I already knew this stuff. A lot of people do. You're the one who asked for a link, so I provided you with one. Truth be told, you should have been looking it up for yourself.

You keep saying rules of logic that you lifted of some website that directing you not to debate but keep sticking to the same sentences over and over.

Yeah, because these rules of logic only exist on websites. You kill me. If you don't like hearing the same fallacies referenced over and over again, THEN QUIT MAKING THE FALLACIES IN YOUR THINKING.

Your better off taking a class.

I have. That's how I knew this stuff. But please, let's all enjoy the irony of you telling me to take a class on this

Originally posted by riggs2099
reply to post by polomontana

 

Ugh Logical fallacy. Can you not see that there are thousands of experts out there that will tell you pluto or an atom exist not just a few. The alien believers only have few experts in the field of science to go along with them while the other ones, like pluto, atoms or anything else you may have count thousands of experts to go along with these facts.

Riggs,

Then you take others testimonies into account?

That's my point.

There's thousands of these cases that have credible witnesses that go back for many years.

So at the end of the debate, you accept the testimony of others and so do I. In order for someone to say Pluto doesn't exist they would have to provide evidence to support the claim.

You just proved my point.

Originally posted by riggs2099
reply to post by polomontana

 

Ugh Logical fallacy. Can you not see that there are thousands of experts out there that will tell you pluto or an atom exist not just a few. The alien believers only have few experts in the field of science to go along with them while the other ones, like pluto, atoms or anything else you may have count thousands of experts to go along with these facts.

there was a time when the majority of 'experts' agreed that the earth was the center of the universe, no?
there was a time when the majority of 'experts' agreed that the earth was flat, no?
there was a time when all the 'experts' still did not know how to make fire, no?
pointing out which side has more 'experts' proclaiming something you nor i can ever observe ourselvese is of very little import. times change, paradigms shift, 'experts' rethink old ideas.

reply to post by thrashee

Ask this fool where he gets his information from...it obviously is websites too because he provided links to website like you tube.

reply to post by re22666


There was also a time when when witches were thought to be real, and that vampires and werewolves also existed. These were thought to exist to the point that people were so gung ho about them that they could not see things rationally, but as you said before times change and so do ideas.

[edit on 29-7-2008 by riggs2099]

Actually the mistake you're all making is appeal to popularity and authority, which is basically stating that because many people believe something to be true, or people in high authority believe something to be true, therefore it must be true.

It's besides the point, because they're trying to use Pluto's existence objectively to demonstrate how you can't prove its existence subjectively.

It's bad logic from the start, and quite similar to the red herrings of "prove black holes exist".

reply to post by thrashee

Thousands and thousands of people believe in any number of things (look at religion). This is proof of nothing, other than thousands and thousands of people being capable of believing the same thing.

Believing and experiencing are two completely different things. Abductees wished they never experienced what they did and some would trade everything they have to take away those memories and experiences. This is not a relgion.:

[edit on 29-7-2008 by Malevolent_Aliens]