The Questions U.F.O. skeptics can't answer

Originally posted by SaviorComplex

Originally posted by re22666
prove to me atoms exsists

Is this proof enough?

Originally posted by re22666
prove to me you are smart enough, learned enough to say for certain aliens do not exsist.

You are confusing a skepticism of extraterrestrial visitation with a disbelief in extraterrestrials. The two thoughts are not mutually inclusive.

By the by, before you insult someone's intelligence in the future, you might want to run a spell-check.

wow, total and complete proof in the form of a wikipedia page!!! you did it!!!!!
wow, thanks, that link you provided also proved santa and the easter bunny. i found pages on them there too. so thanks for enlightening me.

i believe in E.T.s, but i am skeptical that anyone has any proff for them. see i am not confusing anything, you just do not seem to know what each word means on its own. they are mutually exclusive. sorry but wikipedia pages do not PROVE anything, i am not sure how you thought that it would. aside from being known to be unreliable for fact that can be checked out, how does a bunch of text about atoms PROVE that they exist???? you need to clear that up or move on from me.
i am simply pointing out that there are plenty of things we believe exist but have never actually seen or observed in any way. you have not. i have not seen any atoms lately have we? were not any standing out on that page you linked me too, let alone the other things i posted. you proved nothing, yet i will continue to believe atoms are real, as well as the other things i mentioned that you ignored. of course, more wikipedia pages would not help anyway but thanks.

believing that a wikipedia page about something is actual proof something exists is pretty much the same as thinking the 'girl' you chat with online is really your girlfriend. either prove these things, with proof, or conceded my point. thanks for playing. you win gold stars on the spelling errors!! at least you got something right.

Riggs,

You are your own worst enemy.

I notice I don't see some of the usual suspects on this thread and their probably looking at your post and saying,"Man your making skeptics look bad."

You keep talking about undeniable proof. If we went by this standard we would still be living in caves.

There wasn't undeniable proof for Relativity.

There wasn't undeniable proof for quantum physics.

There isn't undeniable proof of black holes

There isn't undeniable proof about evolution or the origin of life.

There's not undeniable proof that Pluto exists.

There's not undeniable proof that we are on Mars.

There's evidence that points to the existence of these things.

This is why in court the 12 jurors do not have to see the crime in order to convict the criminal. It's not undeniable proof that the person commited the crime, it's proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Do you know the difference?

I want some evidence from you. You keep making these abstract statements without a shred of evidence.

You said the implants don't suggest anything.

Tell what else they can be.

Tell me why the implants occur after a visitation experience.

Tell me how the implants got into the body without an incision.

Tell me why the implants were connected to nerve endings.

Tell me why I should believe the opinion of the skeptic and not the doctor or the patients.

I want you to give me some evidence, not just opinion that counters the evidence presented.

Here's the link again:
youtube.com...

Give me some evidence that will lead me to draw a different conclusion.

[edit on 27-7-2008 by polomontana]

This is a troll thread if ever there was one with the prime motive of pitting one belief system against another. Kudos to the Op for creating yet another sh*t fight at ATS. Good work mate! Big pat on the back from me! NOT!

I have seen 3 amazing UFO's up close, yet I am still a skeptical believer. Does that fit your stereotypical model of a skeptic or debunker? I would imagine not.

You see, It's not aliens/inter dimensional travelers I disbelieve in. It's people, because they lie, cheat, hoax - and as history has shown us over and over again, cannot be trusted. Too many people have agenda's I'm afraid. Especially at this website.

Will I take faith in a complete strangers story? NO!

Weren't you taught not to accept candy from strangers when you were young? Well the same applies here. Reserve your judgment before you believe, exercise critical thinking, use some logic, exhaust all prosaic alternatives before taking that leap of faith. Surely there is nothing wrong with that is there?

IRM

"Even if we were to increase the international space exploration budget 20 times to make a serious effort to go into space, it would only be a small fraction of world Gross Domestic Product. Isn't our future worth a quarter of a percent?" Hawking asked.

He also explains why the Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence has failed so far in detecting alien life. The problem stands in the 'Intelligence' word. Any forms of life are extremely rare in the universe, we only have to look at our solar system to understand that. Intelligent life would be several magnitudes rarer, and then there would be the possibility that the alien civilization destroyed itself.

Originally posted by InfaRedMan
This is a troll thread if ever there was one with the prime motive of pitting one belief system against another. Kudos to the Op for creating yet another sh*t fight at ATS. Good work mate! Big pat on the back from me! NOT!

I have seen 3 amazing UFO's up close, yet I am still a skeptical believer. Does that fit your stereotypical model of a skeptic or debunker? I would imagine not.

You see, It's not aliens/inter dimensional travelers I disbelieve in. It's people, because they lie, cheat, hoax - and as history has shown us over and over again, cannot be trusted. Too many people have agenda's I'm afraid. Especially at this website.

Will I take faith in a complete strangers story? NO!

Weren't you taught not to accept candy from strangers when you were young? Well the same applies here. Reserve your judgment before you believe, exercise critical thinking, use some logic, exhaust all prosaic alternatives before taking that leap of faith. Surely there is nothing wrong with that is there?

IRM

Why do you suggest that people who accept these things are not using logic?

Why do you suggest that people who accept these things are not critical thinkers?

This is very arrogant of you. This again is the myth that people accept these things blindly and that's a flat out lie.

You seem to be under the delusion that people who accept these things are not critical thinkers or they are not using logic.

I'm open minded.

If the skeptic can provide logical explanations along with evidence for these things then I will look at it with an open mind.

I'm not going to draw a conclusion on these things based on the skeptics promise that we will find an explanation some day that fits their pre-existing belief.

If you don't include extra-terrestrial/extra-dimensional beings into the equation you will always have these unexplained things.

How long do I have to ignore the evidence and wait for a "rational" explanation?

reply to post by polomontana


"Edgar Mitchell is apparently an Insane Old man with No Credability"

Perhaps he and the rest of the astronauts were having what Michael Shermer would call " AN Mass Hallucination" - Just like those Crazies in Phoenix and Stephensville - perhaps it was only the "Venutian Swamp Gas"

keep fighting the good fight.

Hey

Ok this is what I make of the whole UFO idea.
While skeptics say we have no physical proof of aliens, thats true.
We don't.
However what we also don't have is proof aliens do not exist.
We have more believers than skeptics, however most skeptics would have thier ideas changed at actual evidence.
The difference between believers and skeptics, is that we don't need physical evidence just the insane amount of videos, astronauts/ high ranking military officials confessions, are enough to make us believe.
So before we start hating the skeptics we have to realize they have good insights.
As do most of the believers.

Right now I'm not sure what I am, I believe in aliens, but I also believe most people lie about their "alien encounters".
without physical evidence I cannot believe they have -at least recently- visited this planet (space ships possibly) but actual humanoids no.
Thanks for reading!

Sincerely,
joshedis

p.s to the guy who posted above me, good point
stupid scientific explanations like that can not explain how every one sees thing in incidents like the "Pheonix Lights"(forgive me for improper spelling)

[edit on 28-7-2008 by joshedis]

reply to post by polomontana


Polo you are the believers worst partner..rambling on about prove something exist when there is tons of data to support these things do such as pluto. This data prove these things exist as fact not as theory, which is what your data concerniing aliens is. Open your mind to the possibilty that these are not the only answer, but you are so close minded and will not even give that option a thought, YOUR MIND HAS ALREADY BEEN MADE UP. You are not debating but pushing a belief on people, I on the other hand am giving another alternative to the alien hypothesis. Sure it may be alien but when there is a slight chance it could be something else I can not believe with certainty thats what it is. It is called reasonable doubt. could be aliens, could be man made or could be something else all together....noone knows anything for a FACT.
You will come back and do as you always have and not consider anything but give links to more data that proves something happened not WHAT but something.

[edit on 28-7-2008 by riggs2099]

[edit on 28-7-2008 by riggs2099]

A lot of talk about an Us vs Them mentality.

Spot on there. We don't believe you, think you're either lying for attention, or just as credible as Christians who have seen the Holy Ghost.


Neither side can prove anything to either. Just like with homeopathy, Christianity, and lots of other things. Go get proof that will convince the world. Until then, don't expect people to be convinced by youtube clips.

reply to post by riggs2099


Well Until You Americans Land one of your stealth fighter on my front lawn I'm not going to believe the Stationary one at the Airshow was anything but a life-size mock-up.

I think it is all just special effect to keeps us all scared of you.

-Prove the stealth-fighter is actually stealth once you've managed to prove it's existence.

[edit on 28-7-2008 by TruthTellist]

Originally posted by riggs2099
reply to post by polomontana

 

Polo you are the believers worst partner..rambling on about prove something exist when there is tons of data to support these things do such as pluto. This data prove these things exist as fact not as theory, which is what your data concerniing aliens is. Open your mind to the possibilty that these are not the only answer, but you are so close minded and will not even give that option a thought, YOUR MIND HAS ALREADY BEEN MADE UP. You are not debating but pushing a belief on people, I on the other hand am giving another alternative to the alien hypothesis. Sure it may be alien but when there is a slight chance it could be something else I can not believe with certainty thats what it is. It is called reasonable doubt. could be aliens, could be man made or could be something else all together....noone knows anything for a FACT.
You will come back and do as you always have and not consider anything but give links to more data that proves something happened not WHAT but something.

[edit on 28-7-2008 by riggs2099]

[edit on 28-7-2008 by riggs2099]

Riggs,

You keep bringing up words like fact and undeniable proof and you havn't mentioned one shred of evidence about anything.

There's tons of data to support the existence of Pluto?

Did you collect this data?

Who collected this data and why should I trust them?

Why do you trust the data?

Have you been on Pluto?

Don't tell me you are trusting other peoples testimony after you said testimony doesn't matter.

Do you see the hole of logical fallacies that you have dug with your assertions?

Riggs, you have to bring some evidence to the table.

I'm not going to stick my head in the sand while I wait for the skeptics "rational explanation" for these things.

reply to post by TruthTellist



Good points.

Here is something for sceptics to consider in regards to the problem with Faster Than Light travel (FTL):

Astronomer Norman Murray of the University of Toronto reported at the 2001 AAAS meeting that: "There is evidence that there is terrestrial-type material orbiting most of the stars in the solar neighborhood. So, the implication, if this result holds up, is that there are Earth-like bodies in orbit around most of the stars in our galaxy." Even if this turns out to be overly optimistic and the formation of habitable planets around solar-like stars proves to be less likely than that, one might expect there to be at least a few other civilizations in the Galaxy. If that is the case, one can draw the conclusion statistically that unless civilizations tend to extinguish themselves once they discover sufficient technology to do so, most alien civilizations would be older and more technologically advanced than we are. It can then pretty easily be argued that a few million years would suffice for such an advanced civilization to spread across the Galaxy even at sublight speed by colonizing habitable planets, eventually sending out second waves of colonization from those planets, then third waves, etc. Astronomer Ian Crawford recently wrote about this in Scientific American. His diffusion model leads to "full galactic colonization" in 5 to 50 million years (Sci. Am., Nov. 2000, p. 8), a small fraction of the age of the Galaxy. Naturally this all assumes human-like behaviour and motivation. The bottom line is that if even only a few alien civilizations have arisen in the 10 billion or so year history of our Galaxy, most of the habitable parts of the Galaxy would likely be colonized by now.

I found this at ufoskeptic.org (link below) ... have any of you read through this site before? ... I found it very interesting, especially the Fermi paradox (which may have already been discussed in this thread ... I just didn't have time to go through every post)

More of this here

Good science shows that, even without FTL travel, a civilisation can populate a galaxy.
50 million years may sound like a lot to us but it's less than half of 1 percent of the age of the galaxy.

Advanced civ's don't need FTL travel ... just a lot of patience, long life and reliable technology ... somethings that a civ 50 million years old may just have a bit of up their sleeve.

Another thing for all ye sceptics:

MILLIONS of sightings over thousands of years, paintings, pictures, photographs, video, oral reports, written reports, audio recordings etc.

Witnesses from all age, social, cultural, financial and political demographics.

Witnesses from all levels of government and the private business sector; from presidents and CEO's to the average person on the street.

Are the sceptics really saying that with all this evidence, that the probability that the planet Earth has been visited by ET/UFO's is zero?

Are sceptics really implying that every single one of the MILLIONS of witnesses has misinterpreted what they experienced?

MILLIONS!!!

I think that, in the face of the sheer weight of numbers and common sense, that a true sceptic would have to be sceptical of someone who was sceptical of events that had millions of witnesses.

When all things are equal the simplest explanation is best:

Situation:

Millions of witnesses with hundreds of thousands of photo's, video's, written and oral documentation of a phenomenon.

Answer:

a) Considering the evidence and documentation there is a possibility that the phenomenon exists.

b) Despite the evidence and documentation there is no possibility that the phenomenon exists.

Sceptics, please explain your reasoning.

When a situation borders the realm of certainty and uncertainty, it is only Human nature to comply with solutions of certainty, as it gives us peace of mind. It is also Human nature to use the imagination to step into the unknown, the uncertain, as it intrigues the mind.

The character of a skeptic is one that is bound by knowledge, certainty. The character of the believer is one bound by curiosity, delving into the unknown.

Then there is the observer, with a fine balance of knowledge and imagination, walking through the walls of differences to find treasured truth, understanding it everywhere he/she goes.

That's the beauty of life. There is no wonder why beauty is rare, because it isn't.

reply to post by polomontana


Polomontana,

You seem overtly aggressive and over eager to take defensive stances. What I'm saying is a generalization to all those confronted with the afore mentioned phenomena. I'm not saying that all people who 'believe' don't exercise some form of critical thinking (within their own capacity). But in saying that, there are definitely those that do not!

You appear to misconstrue my message in the interests of being adversarial. Take a time out! Take a few deep breaths and consider my words as they were intended.

Your Thread Heading reads "The Questions U.F.O skeptics can't answer". Please do not level flames at me of arrogance. Your title itself suggests the very arrogance & delusions of grandeur you are complaining about in others.

That's like the pot calling the kettle black. Anyhow, I'm done with this particular thread because it does nothing to advance the serious research into the phenomena. As previously stated, it's a contrived thread to create arguments amongst the members. The various adversarial posts amongst the pages of this thread are proof of that. Get off your self righteous high chair!

Unless (of course) you wish to deny the content of the previous pages.

IRM

Edit for Dreaded Typos

[edit on 28/7/08 by InfaRedMan]

if someone is going to come up with statements about how people KNOW earth was flat in the last 50 years I'm gonna LMAO)

I'm sorry buddy, I can't really understand that statement.

However it was only a couple of centuries ago that the majority of the teachers, the politicans, the astronomers, and the scientists. totally believed the earth was flat. As far as I know. But I ain't smart.

You say that you don't believe in aliens. I only ask "Why not?"
I don't really need proof of that. just an explination other than YOU have never seen them.

Because the scientists say they don't exist. they have been wrong before.
see-flat earth.

Under the circumstances, and in the face of evidence, to say that ET/UFO's don't exist is an extraordinary claim.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Sceptics ... your evidence please!

until you have an alien body to examine

you got nothing

Originally posted by bringthelight
We have plenty of credible witnesses out there and every day we decide on the rest of peoples lives based on credible witness testimony. Its called THE US JUSTICE SYSTEM. If you have panels of credible witnesses (disclosure project) like government officials, pilots, ect., all saying there is proof beyone the shadow of a doubt but it has just been covered up, how do we not believe these people?

Credible witness testimony can send a person to jail for life but is ignored when it comes to the most important discovery of our time?

As you correctly point out we believe witnesses when it comes to the justice system but not when it deals with the issue in this thread (mainly UFOs, but paranormal stuff has been brought up as well).

It is logical to me. When you compare the two, the justice system and UFOs, you have to realize that the UFO issue, if true, would put everything we know on its head. The effects of something like that being and indisputable truth would be far reaching. It would question everyone's belief system, it would question government, it would question science and what we know about our reality. Of course people will tend to be a bit more skeptical about that rather than trusting whether someone saw someone else stealing a car.

I think it's wise to realise that whenever a UFO story is being brought up it threatens so many of the things we take for granted, hence it will be met with reluctance.

OP is on to something though, but it's just another of the universal truths we deal with. Whether you belive something or not will always be controlled by your own belief system, regardless of you being a skeptic or not. We are all controlled by our beliefs whether we like it or not. I can just turn the question around; a skeptic cannot convince a believer, because of the believer's belief. Making any sense?

Originally posted by re22666
wow, total and complete proof in the form of a wikipedia page! you did it!
how does a bunch of text about atoms PROVE that they exist? you need to clear that up or move on from me.

The point is not a Wikipedia page. The point is that we have a bomb that is powered by the splitting of an atom. And based on your ludicrous argument, no matter what I say about the atom is going to be proof enough for you, because you'll just say it's "a bunch of text."

You're hopeless.