Is Hell actually a more preferable destination than Heaven?

Originally posted by feoil
reply to post by undo

 

is a man's love of his football team

thanks for that.
ah, whew..
hehehe

Originally posted by JPhish
reply to post by FIFIGI

 

I do not believe that to love someone, the feeling must be mutual.

That is not called LOVE - if it is not mutual it is called worship or adoration

Originally posted by FIFIGI

Originally posted by JPhish
reply to post by FIFIGI

 

I do not believe that to love someone, the feeling must be mutual.

That is not called LOVE - if it is not mutual it is called worship or adoration

I absolutely disagree, because if I was to accept your conclusion and take it a step further, it would break down; for example not only would 2 people have to mutually love each other, but they would also have to have the same exact concept of what "love" really is - and I highly doubt two people have the exact same understanding of such an abstract concept.

...and why everyone is so focused on bible anyway? There are so many great well documented religions - Voodoo, Budism, Joga, Hinduism, Islam...why Christianity is taken as a dogma here?

Originally posted by scientist

Originally posted by FIFIGI

Originally posted by JPhish
reply to post by FIFIGI

 

I do not believe that to love someone, the feeling must be mutual.

That is not called LOVE - if it is not mutual it is called worship or adoration

I absolutely disagree, because if I was to accept your conclusion and take it a step further, it would break down; for example not only would 2 people have to mutually love each other, but they would also have to have the same exact concept of what "love" really is - and I highly doubt two people have the exact same understanding of such an abstract concept.

You have disillusioned perception of the termini LOVE (it deformed with the help of media of course). Love is not something you can define by identifying different perceptions of it. Love is defined by the way people feel (and if it is love, they feel like expressing it in a same way - I'll get to that).

Love is not a pattern of thoughts - it can be determined by the love-evoked characteristics of your inner impulses. All the people share the same impulses when experiencing love. If they are not the same - it is not a love you are feeling. I'll describe the major principle of love impulses and then you can decide where you go with it.

The impulse of love we experience all the time on a daily basis. Most of the time it self-love. We do things, we get motivated to do things because of the INWARD impulse of the love. We love ourselves. If you imagine yourself as a shell then your love emits towards the inner centre. When I am talking about LOVE I refer to the LOVE that emits itself to the outside world or a subject.

Of course self love (egoism) is love as well and most of our life we are conditioned to emit it inwardly. The magic happens when you meet someone you fall in love (you do not love yet - you just fall in love). The fall in love is a moment when your impulse starts to change direction from inward to outward projection. This state of mind culminates at some point at stays for a while if mutual outward impulses meet.

This state of hart (rather tan mind - because you have no mind control over it) for "normal" people does not last for ever - the impulse is drawn gradually back to the inwards state and we say that we do not love some one anymore and we sometimes wonder why

Ehh, enough for now

reply to post by FIFIGI


well, for one that proclaims love cannot be defined by perception, only by feeling, you seem to contradict yourself a bit, especially by trying to explain it in such a precise and text-book manner. I do not agree that all "impulses" are the same, just as fingerprints are not the same. They serve the same purpose, and make use of the same materials - however they are not the same person to person. That may just be a fundamental concept we don't agree on, so we can agree to disagree right here and now... although I would like to point out another contradiction you may want to clear up:

Originally posted by FIFIGI
Love is not something you can define by identifying different perceptions of it. Love is defined by the way people feel ...

Love is not a pattern of thoughts - it can be determined by the love-evoked characteristics of your inner impulses.

but didn't you say it had to be mutual? How are both of these concepts compatible? Inner impulses aren't mutual, hence "inner."

.

[edit on 17-7-2008 by scientist]

reply to post by pause4thought


It wasn't intended as a swipe but as an observation based on my own experience within mainstream Christianity... Jesus himself only set up two Commandments and the only real requirement for salvation was to believe Jesus is the savior and want to be saved, however in books beyond the Gospels other requirements, add-ons, and other advice about baptism, Pentecost, etc seemed to have cropped up to the point that it would be nearly impossible by modern Christianity's standards to get into Heaven...

I like Jesus, quite a bit, in fact he's one of my favorite historical and philosophical figures but I believe that what's in our modern Bible isn't all of what Jesus taught and that some of the stuff in there may have been added during Roman or Medieval times to pervert Christ's teachings... The masses love Jesus, Christianity is one of the biggest religions in the world, they even make movies about him that make millions...

I believe in a God of some sort, but I don't believe I need the religions of men to find Him (especially when they cause wars, inquisitions, prejudice, guilt, etc).

I'm to busy with my life to worry about what happens when its over.
Just live your life and be a good person.
Help someone when you are given an opportunity to.


That's pretty much it I think.

None of the 7 sins you listed are written in the Bible. If your perception of God as a greedy entity is all based from that then you are extremely wrong. Those 7 sins were fabricated by a pope of past in order to make people behave more morally correct (in the pope's eyes). They are not the word of God, so don't take them as such. The pope is a horrible position that thinks he's god on earth and the antichrist will be the pope. But your main argument is kinda correct in that the idea we have of hell is probably completely wrong. The fire and torture and whatnot is most likely another fabrication by the Catholic church, like you said, to scare us into obedience with the 7 sins that they also made up. But they idea behind hell is that it is indeed the absence of God, and without God, there is nothing good. Just evil. It is this evil, from Satan and his demons, that make Earth different from Heaven. This evil causes wars, crimes, and all the bad things, but we must endure it all until we can find our place in Heaven without it. I certainly wouldn't like to damn myself to an eternity of nothing but this evil. I would hope you're not too fond of that option either.

[edit on 17-7-2008 by IAPremed]

reply to post by EverythingYouDespise

ROFL. I bet youre not racist tho. That would be crossing the line. I would love to remotely observe a society with your ideals. With you as ruler.

Im calling up satan now and requesting that we sit at the same lunch table in hell.

I dont know, but I fail to see the conspiratorial side to this topic.
It seems S.O. made it pretty clear about keeping these threads in, I believe, the faith & spirituality forum.

Again, this is theology and debate - no conspiracy (as defined by dictionary) here.

Peace

dAlen

reply to post by EverythingYouDespise


-- Is this what you truly wish to have in the after-life? You must truly understand HELL before you make your final choice. Hell is a pre-destination for people who have earned the wrath of God while they are on earth. God has given us free will, if God willed He could have denied it to us and make us love Him and worship Him by force, this is not impossible for God. The fact that we have free will means that God has no need of us, we can serve Him or not as we wish, God has nothing to lose, because He is in need of nothing. But consider us, humans, every second we are in need of oxygen to breathe, and every second we are given our sustenance by God. Is God so unfair to expect His servants to love Him freely when every second of the day we receive mercy from Him? Who ministers your breath every second? Who gave you life and formed you in your mother's womb?

016.078 And Allah brought you forth from the wombs of your mothers knowing nothing, and gave you hearing and sight and hearts that haply ye might give thanks.

013.008 Allah knoweth that which every female beareth and that which the wombs absorb and that which they grow. And everything with Him is measured.

039.006 He created you from one being, then from that (being) He made its mate; and He hath provided for you of cattle eight kinds. He created you in the wombs of your mothers, creation after creation, in a threefold gloom. Such is Allah, your Lord. His is the Sovereignty. There is no God save Him. How then are ye turned away ?

With your free will you can choose to go to Heaven by following the path that God has laid down for you, as shown by the Holy Prophets of God, To worship God alone and to do not do to others what you do not want others to do to you, or you can choose Hell. I will give a brief description of what one can expect from Hell , should they choose this path.


035.036 But as for those who disbelieve, for them is fire of hell; it taketh not complete effect upon them so that they can die, nor is its torment lightened for them. Thus We punish every ingrate.

020.074 Lo! whoso cometh guilty unto his Lord, verily for him is hell. There he will neither die nor live.

039.071 And those who disbelieve are driven unto hell in troops till, when they reach it and the gates thereof are opened, and the warders thereof say unto them: Came there not unto you messengers of your own, reciting unto you the revelations of your Lord and warning you of the meeting of this your Day ? they say: Yea, verily. But the word of doom of disbelievers is fulfilled.

048.006 And may punish the hypocritical men and the hypocritical women, and the idolatrous men and the idolatrous women, who think an evil thought concerning Allah. For them is the evil turn of fortune, and Allah is wroth against them and hath cursed them, and hath made ready for them hell, a hapless journey's end.

043.074 Lo! the guilty are immortal in hell's torment.

054.048 On the day when they are dragged into the Fire upon their faces (it is said unto them): Feel the touch of hell.

055.043 This is hell which the guilty deny.

072.015 And as for those who are unjust, they are firewood for hell.

089.023 And hell is brought near that day; on that day man will remember, but how will the remembrance (then avail him) ?

098.006 Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings.

008.036 Lo! those who disbelieve spend their wealth in order that they may debar (men) from the way of Allah. They will spend it, then it will become an anguish for them, then they will be conquered. And those who disbelieve will be gathered unto hell.

009.035 On the day when it will (all) be heated in the fire of hell, and their foreheads and their flanks and their backs will be branded therewith (and it will be said unto them): Here is that which ye hoarded for yourselves. Now taste of what ye used to hoard.

014.016 hell is before him, and he is made to drink a festering water,

017.018 Whoso desireth that (life) which hasteneth away, We hasten for him therein what We will for whom We please. And afterward We have appointed for him hell; he will endure the heat thereof, condemned, rejected.

016.029 So enter the gates of hell, to dwell therein for ever. Woeful indeed will be the lodging of the arrogant.

017.097 And he whom Allah guideth, he is led aright; while, as for him whom He sendeth astray, for them thou wilt find no protecting friends beside Him, and We shall assemble them on the Day of Resurrection on their faces, blind, dumb and deaf; their habitation will be hell; whenever it abateth, We increase the flame for them.

006.070 And forsake those who take their religion for a pastime and a jest, and whom the life of the world beguileth. Remind (mankind) hereby lest a soul be destroyed by what it earneth. It hath beside Allah no protecting ally nor intercessor, and though it offer every compensation it will not be accepted from it. Those are they who perish by their own deserts. For them is drink of boiling water and a painful doom, because they disbelieved.

037.067 And afterward, lo! thereupon they have a drink of boiling water

040.072 Through boiling waters; then they are thrust into the Fire.

044.048 Then pour upon his head the torment of boiling water.

055.044 They go circling round between it and fierce, boiling water.

056.052 Ye verily will eat of a tree called zaqqum.

037.064 Lo! it is a tree that springeth in the heart of hell.

The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said: “If one drop from Az-Zaqqum were to land on this world, the people of earth and all their means of sustenance would be destroyed. So how must it be for the one who must eat it?”

Who will choose Hell as their final abode? When God promises Paradise to the believers and those who ward off evil?

047.015 A similitude of the Garden which those who keep their duty (to Allah) are promised: Therein are rivers of water unpolluted, and rivers of milk whereof the flavour changeth not, and rivers of wine delicious to the drinkers, and rivers of clear-run honey; therein for them is every kind of fruit, with pardon from their Lord. (Are those who enjoy all this) like those who are immortal in the Fire and are given boiling water to drink so that it teareth their bowels ?

Peace!

lol Hell is out there without a dout. But here comes the seven wifes. LOL

This is a continuum of anonymous reply: next page.....

The Last Judgment might be called a process of right evaluation. It simply means that everyone will finally come to understand what is worthy and what is not. After this, the ability to choose can be directed rationally. Until this distinction is made, however, the vacillations between free and imprisoned will cannot but continue.

The first step toward freedom involves a sorting out of the false from the true. 2 This is a process of separation in the constructive sense, and reflects the true meaning of the Apocalypse. 3 Everyone will ultimately look upon his own creations and choose to preserve only what is good, just as God Himself looked upon what He had created and knew that it was good. 4 At this point, the mind can begin to look with love on its own creations because of their worthiness. 5 At the same time the mind will inevitably disown its miscreations which, without belief, will no longer exist.

The term "Last Judgment" is frightening not only because it has been projected onto God, but also because of the association of "last" with death. 2 This is an outstanding example of upside-down perception. 3 If the meaning of the Last Judgment is objectively examined, it is quite apparent that it is really the doorway to life. 4 No one who lives in fear is really alive. 5 Your own last judgment cannot be directed toward yourself, because you are not your own creation. 6 You can, however, apply it meaningfully and at any time to everything you have made, and retain in your memory only what is creative and good. 7 This is what your right-mindedness cannot but dictate. 8 The purpose of time is solely to "give you time" to achieve this judgment. 9 It is your own perfect judgment of your own perfect creations. 10 When everything you retain is lovable, there is no reason for fear to remain with you. 11 This is your part in the Love.

Perceptions and no judgments The statement "God created man in his own image and likeness" needs reinterpretation. 2 "Image" can be understood as "thought," and "likeness" as "of a like quality." 3 God did create spirit in His Own Thought and of a quality like to His Own. 4 There nothing else. 5 Perception, on the other hand, is impossible without a belief in "more" and "less." 6 At every level it involves selectivity. 7 Perception is a continual process of accepting and rejecting, organizing and reorganizing, shifting and changing. 8 Evaluation is an essential part of perception, because judgments are necessary in order to select.

What happens to perceptions if there are no judgments and nothing but perfect equality? Perception becomes impossible .Truth can only be known. Only perception involves partial awareness. Knowledge transcends the laws governing perception, because partial knowledge is impossible. 7 It is all one and has no separate parts. 8 You who are really one with it need but know yourself and your knowledge is complete. 9 To know God's miracle is to know Him. Forgiveness is the healing of the perception of separation. 2 Correct perception of your brother is necessary, because minds have chosen to see themselves as separate. 3 Spirit knows God completely. 4 That is its miraculous power. 5 The fact that each one has this power completely is a condition entirely alien to the world's thinking. 6 The world believes that if anyone has everything, there is nothing left. 7 But God's miracles are as total as His Thoughts because they His Thoughts.

Love,

For more on this : a-course-in-miracles.net...

Thank you for your time

Well, here's a concept RARELY spoken about. In the holding place for those that wouldn't not accept the truth of the Gospel when they had the oppertunity to accept it, it is called Hell. It has not a shred of light in it. That being said, it is so bitter cold that the blackness actually burns. The lake of fire is and always has been for Satan and his fallen minions.

Second, I actually went to hell, or, was on the shore of the lake of fire only once. Laugh if you'd like, but, until you been there .. you REALLY don't want to return.. PERIOD. You can laugh and joke about it all you want but, as the scripture states, "man doesn't right in his own eyes, and comes to ruin!'

Both places are real. I'll pick Heaven over Hell in less than a blink of an eye!

Originally posted by IAPremed
... But they idea behind hell is that it is indeed the absence of God, and without God, there is nothing good. Just evil. It is this evil, from Satan and his demons, that make Earth different from Heaven. This evil causes wars, crimes, and all the bad things, but we must endure it all until we can find our place in Heaven without it....

The last time I checked, most wars seemed to have a lot more to do with god(s) than demons. I don't believe Satan (as the character is protrayed in the Bible and similar texts) should even be considered "evil". He seems more like a guy who wants free will, freedom and the right to feel good about himself. He offers the same to mankind, unlike God. Both of them are superior to man, but only God feels the need to punish his creation with psychotic cataclysms anytime they aren't worshipping him hard enough. God's like the abusive father who beats the hell out of his kids and Satan's more like the cool older brother who kicked Dad's ass, got kicked out of the house and sometimes lets you come over and party with him on the weekend.

Originally posted by jprophet420
I would love to remotely observe a society with your ideals. With you as ruler.

So would I! Somebody make this happen, quick.

Seriously, though, I think a lot of modern society does share more of my ideals. Most people are just too timid to express this in public. Why do you think people spend so much money on pornography, violent entertainment, alcohol and narcotics? Not even most of the religious people follow their books' moral codes very closely these days.

Originally posted by feoil
Would any of the loves you mention exist with out lust?

The only love i can think of that doesn't in some way include lust is a man's love of his football team

Excellent post! Of course, if you have the same football team as me (Detroit Lions), it's more of a love/hate relationship.

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by EverythingYouDespise

 

1. Lust is infintely better than love. First of all, love is an illusion. Nobody loves anything. They just feel like they own other people's emotions. Therefore, those who claim to love are really just afraid to rely on themselves. Lust is a real passion because it has actual physical effects and can be satisfied.

This is so typically adolescent, it's remarkable that you don't realize it. I don't lust for my children but I do love them. I don't lust for our pets, but I do love them. I don't lust for my parents, but I do love them.

I'd argue that you possess them more than you love them. You use them to stroke your ego.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull

I've been a lot happier since I gave up Christianity and realized that it is only a perversion created by the Romans and medieval Catholics, the perversion of the teachings of a great rebel and philosopher named Jesus... created to control and instill guilt and shame...

Great post. I'd go a bit further, though. Christianity is a shameful slave religion designed to keep oppressed people from thinking highly of themselves, valueing their day-to-day lives and wanting to achieve anything. It's all mindless devotion to God - and Christ too. What's to love about a man who encourages his followers to be timid and meek? And the whole passion bit - that just makes me think even less of Jesus. Anyone who would voluntarily allow himself to be tortured like that - for a bunch of ungrateful jerks no less - deserves nothing but our contempt.

The pitiful part of Jesus' crucifiction, is that He 'humbled' himself to do what he did!
He gave his life, comfort, ego, sexuality, money, ALL!
He doesn't tell us to do all that, unless we realize how pathetic it is to be a slave to money, mortgage, clothes, hair, preconceived notions of success!
And WANT to.
Some people have families, employees, relatives WHO NEED our money and prestige, but, is it REALLY the be all end all?

Are you seriously thinking?
Because in one instance, you say that god, the Bible, all that isn't real and THEN you say that satan just wants to give what God won't and help man kind.
Which is it?

Seriously, you act like all Christians do is sit on their butts and wait on manna from heaven, all the while ignoring poor and ignorant people.
How many full-blooded Christians do you even know?
Probably those on the fence.

Such ignorance about our religion!
Yet, you can get your info from a fat, bitter guy on the internet in his basement waiting on his next meeting with fellow ignoramuses.
"mom, can you iron my cloak, I've got a meeting!"

[edit on 18-7-2008 by Clearskies]

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Hi. Thanks for clarifying that you weren't being antagonistic. Apologies if I overreacted.

The masses love Jesus, Christianity is one of the biggest religions in the world, they even make movies about him that make millions...

I understand where you're coming from. My comment that Jesus was, and remains unpopular to the masses relates to the authentic Jesus.

Yes, countless millions see themselves as nominally Christian, love to sing about the baby in a manger, enjoy the movies you allude to and even give mental ascent to some of his teachings. Yet this 'popular religion' very often has little if anything to do with the man who spoke the kind of hard-hitting words I referred to earlier.


(In this connection the comments made by EverythingYouDespise about how he/she despises Jesus and his teachings about meekness simply demonstrate that he is not acquainted with the real man. Meekness does not equal timidity. It is forbearance of others' weaknesses and failings in the light of your own and a refusal to impose your will on others, preferring to treat even those who mistreat you with dignity and respect. A man able to voluntarily endure being whipped almost to death and nailed to a tree to die of suffocation and in the process pray that his persecutors be blessed by God is not timid. He is a General.

Imagine how different modern society would be if true meekness were practised. Those who reject it implicitly value violence and abuse over peace, whether physical, verbal or otherwise.)


The 'Christian religion' of the masses very often equates to 'I'll take what I like and ignore the rest'. Reading Christ's teaching and genuinely adhering to it in thought and life is a way of life often derided and ridiculed by those very same people.

In effect the real Jesus is despised, but the 'pop' version can be put in a box marked 'Christmas, Easter, christenings, marriages and funerals' and very nicely accommodated into any number of commercial exploits, not to mention political movements.

Whenever I mention Jesus I never mean the 'pop' version, unless specified, as above. The one I follow is the one you read of in the New Testament.

The idea that the New Testament is not a reliable record of Christ's life and teaching is put forward by those who don't like what they read - those who are prejudiced against it - but most folks who've heard this repeated ad infinitum have simply assumed these ideas are the result of unbiased research. The evidence to back up the reliability of the New Testament is solid. Anyone genuinely wanting to know can read a solid rebuttal of the arguments against the reliability of the New Testament in the following thread:

New Testament Documents - are they Reliable?

(NB: The 11th post on p.1 links to the book discussed in the thread.)

I can only add that the videos I linked to in my first post also back up the accuracy of the New Testament records relating to the reality of Heaven and Hell: they are personal accounts of people who've been there.

Everyone believes in their heart that their beliefs are the correct ones. Everyone believes that it is they who are the enlightened, the blessed and the chosen. Who are we to tell them they are wrong? We are an extension of the creator(s) and therefore our perspectives carry equal weight regardless of circumstances surrounding our particular flavo(u)r of reality.

If you believe in your heart and soul that living apart from "God" would be Heaven. Then, for you it would be, that is your truth, that is your path.