Can You Laymen Handle the Masonic Truth?

PS, when you make it to the 32° of the Scottish Rite, they'll probably tell you to read this book called Morals & Dogma. I hear you can get it on Amazon, or read it online for free.

See you at the fish fry!

Originally posted by Fulcrum29
If what you say were to be true, it would paint Masonry as quite the hypocritical and contradictory institution.

Uh no. That would because you actually don't seem to have read any masonic philosophy or the ritual, else you would know this already.

Originally posted by Fulcrum29
Think about it, an institution claimng to be TRANSPARENT, PRAGMATIC/PRACTICAL, and down to EARTH, utilizes many SECRETS, SECRET OATHS, and an endless nebulous/convoluted web of ARCHAIC AND METAPHORICAL SYMBOLISM.

Making up stuff again. Masonry has never claimed to be transparent in terms of ritual, although we certainly are in all other means. However, masonry has never claimed to be the exclusive holder of light, and in fact, this is why masons are not made first in the lodge. Again...if you had done your research, you'd know that.

Originally posted by Fulcrum29
How sir, should we reconcile the PRACTICAL and down to EARTH missions of Freemasonry in the form of simple CHARITY and other seemingly "mundane" Earthly concerns with the endless webs of SYMBOLISM, MYTHOLOGIES,

Just like we reconcile all other groups who do this: college fraternities and sororities, the boy scouts (oh yes, they have symbolism - GASP), etc.

Originally posted by Fulcrum29
A great contradiction is before us gentlemen. One that belies the true hidden meanings and secrets beneath the seemingly "transparent" veil of the mudane down to earth blue collar Blue Lodge Masonry.

Actually there is no contradiction. You just didn't do your research, and it shows.

Originally posted by Fulcrum29
I for one have trained my mind for years to see through such efficacious misdirection and thus I lift the Golden Veil of Masonry and expose the True Light to all those who are prepared to accept its existence.

Uh-huh. Sure. In any case, before you go around proclaiming to know the light of masonry you might want to...I don't know...read some of the books about it. Just saying.

Originally posted by JoshNorton
PS, when you make it to the 32° of the Scottish Rite, they'll probably tell you to read this book called Morals & Dogma. I hear you can get it on Amazon, or read it online for free.

See you at the fish fry!

Well, according to my research (more like google), Morals and Dogma stopped being distributed to Scottish Rite initiates in 1974 when it was deemed too advanced/complex, or something along those lines.
The current book given to Scottish Rite Masons is "A Bridge to Light", although that I believe is also available for purchase to the public.

Originally posted by ALightinDarkness

Originally posted by Fulcrum29
If what you say were to be true, it would paint Masonry as quite the hypocritical and contradictory institution.

Uh no. That would because you actually don't seem to have read any masonic philosophy or the ritual, else you would know this already.

Originally posted by Fulcrum29
Think about it, an institution claimng to be TRANSPARENT, PRAGMATIC/PRACTICAL, and down to EARTH, utilizes many SECRETS, SECRET OATHS, and an endless nebulous/convoluted web of ARCHAIC AND METAPHORICAL SYMBOLISM.

Making up stuff again. Masonry has never claimed to be transparent in terms of ritual, although we certainly are in all other means. However, masonry has never claimed to be the exclusive holder of light, and in fact, this is why masons are not made first in the lodge. Again...if you had done your research, you'd know that.

Originally posted by Fulcrum29
How sir, should we reconcile the PRACTICAL and down to EARTH missions of Freemasonry in the form of simple CHARITY and other seemingly "mundane" Earthly concerns with the endless webs of SYMBOLISM, MYTHOLOGIES,

Just like we reconcile all other groups who do this: college fraternities and sororities, the boy scouts (oh yes, they have symbolism - GASP), etc.

Originally posted by Fulcrum29
A great contradiction is before us gentlemen. One that belies the true hidden meanings and secrets beneath the seemingly "transparent" veil of the mudane down to earth blue collar Blue Lodge Masonry.

Actually there is no contradiction. You just didn't do your research, and it shows.

Originally posted by Fulcrum29
I for one have trained my mind for years to see through such efficacious misdirection and thus I lift the Golden Veil of Masonry and expose the True Light to all those who are prepared to accept its existence.

Uh-huh. Sure. In any case, before you go around proclaiming to know the light of masonry you might want to...I don't know...read some of the books about it. Just saying.

That was a frivolous and mostly hollow "rebuttal". In case you didn't notice, this thread is in SUPPORT of Masonry not condemnation or criticism. I made it as a backlash against the recent rash of narrow minded attacks on Masonry so your accusational and frivolous tone is quite out of place.
Furthermore, your analogy to college fraternities is weak, considering the fact that most (all?) college fraternities/sororities do not profess to know ancient wisdoms and center themselves around a path to great enlightenment of universal truths.
I find your defensive manner quite out of place. You said I am "making stuff up" and that Masonry has never claimed to have transparent rituals. No where in my post did I state their RITUALS were transparent, now YOU sir are making things up for the sake of your defensive agenda.
Furthermore to my knowledge I never said that Masonry was the SOLE possessor of "Light", so your rude comment towards my not having "done my research" and therefore not knowing that is once again out of place and accusational.
Fact is I DID do a moderate amount of research, as you can see in my posts and have now read bits and pieces of the recommended Morals and Dogmas out of curiosity.
It seems sir that YOU have not done YOUR research in properly reading all of the posts in my thread, something I would recommend that you do to save yourself further embarrassment.

ALightInDarkness:

I tend to agree with the above. You're gonna have to to better than just bleating "do your research" ad nauseam.

I think you misconstrued a lot of what he said due to a highly defensive default position.

Understanding high truths doesnt have jack to do with intelligence....it has to do with SEEING...the ability to perceive in many new ways. I dont think the Masons are so beyond us we cant comprehend.

I know that to give endlessly is wise and to not withhold secrets. So if they are so wise....then out with it if its that damn important. They dont even have to say its freemasonry. Just put it out there for us to soak up.

There are millions of incredibly aware people who dont have all the pieces.

So whos the Idiot, me or those not sharing secrets. And if they dont have powerful secrets , then who cares anyway, we can get it from the many other sources. What im saying is , why withhold crucial info, if its not alreasy out there?

The fact is that our world system sucks and the secret groups are in control. I dont give a damn which group is doing what , but its hard to belive one of them is altruistic.

Sharing is love.

The secret societies can pick their top 50 people and Ill pick mine.

The secret socities would be blown away. This mental analogy is egoic in a way, but im pointing out that the wisest people arent in some stupid group. THey are nobodies.

Do they go around seeking advice from the truly humble wise nobodies or sit with their buddies stroking each others egos over some handed down knowledge of ancient dead civilizations.

On the Scientific side...its not like they are having all these breakthrus come thru their frat buddies. THey use and manipulate geniouses from the outside world.

Im sure theres plenty of wonderful masons, but they should kick out the braindead politicians giving them a bad name or whatever.

Originally posted by emsed1
Very interesting points!

I just wanted to throw one little thing into the discussion for reference.

The 32nd degree is (I believe) given in the Scottish Rite and is the last degree of that Rite.

The 33rd degree is an honorary title that is bestowed on men who have spent a lot of time contributing to masonry and Rite. I don't think you can request to be a 33rd.

I have heard some of the Scottish Rite guys joking around about the 33rd some times and it usually goes something like, "Hey did you hear that Bob was supposedly going to get his 33rd this year but they looked and he didn't pay enough money!"

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this gentleman.. his name is Ben Fulford and he makes some real farout claims!

ca.youtube.com...

[edit on 15-7-2008 by ToolFanMael]

reply to post by Fulcrum29


The 32nd degree is called the prince of the royal secret not the Knight of saint andrews. The kinghts of saint andrews is a side group. They are no more than 10 years old. They are a service org. for the Scottish rite Southern Jur. With a little bit of research you could had found this out yourself.

reply to post by Fulcrum29


of all the people who get involved with freemasonry, maybe 5 percent progress past the 32nd and 33rd degrees, to ascertain the true hidden knowledge. one only becomes privy to this "knowledge", if you are bloodline. if you don't know what the bloodline is, refer to david icke. one other thing. if you are going to refer to "satan" and "jesus", or religion in general, please do your research. all the major religions of the world are composites of much much older belief systems. in truth there have been about 40 different "jesus's", and countless "satan's". the masons, the templars, are newer versions of the ancient mystery schools that go back to atlantis and lemuria. they have been hijacked in modern times to suit the needs of the emotionless, 4th dimensional prisonwarders, that control every aspect of our physical world today. do yourself a favor bro, and read david ickes' books.

Originally posted by onlyhurtsu
The secret societies can pick their top 50 people and Ill pick mine.

The secret socities would be blown away. This mental analogy is egoic in a way, but im pointing out that the wisest people arent in some stupid group. THey are nobodies.

Do they go around seeking advice from the truly humble wise nobodies or sit with their buddies stroking each others egos over some handed down knowledge of ancient dead civilizations.

On the Scientific side...its not like they are having all these breakthrus come thru their frat buddies. THey use and manipulate geniouses from the outside world.

Im sure theres plenty of wonderful masons, but they should kick out the braindead politicians giving them a bad name or whatever.

Frist of all enlightenment is not a contest, Second everyone has with in themselves all that they need to become enlightened. The masons have nothing in the way of knowlege that can't be found elsewhere. It is the exspireance of going though the degrees that can trigger a change in the way a person looks at the world and themselves.
If you truly wish for enlightenment. All I can do for you is to let you in on a little secret. One that is hidden in plain sight.

KNOW THYSELF!!

Seems simple, doesn't it. Let me warn you it will take a life time to achive.

From what I have learned, It is not the fact that we know a secret, the test is to see that we keep the secret. I can't tell you what the password is for a master masons lodge, but I am sure you can find it within 3-4 minutes. We as masons are taught quite a bit of things that cant' be written down or given to a non mason. You can imagine my surprise when I saw the book "Duncans Ritual". The only way you will ever find out for sure if we are telling the truth is to join the lodge. I have no reason to lie but all you have is my word.

Originally posted by Fulcrum29
Well, according to my research (more like google), Morals and Dogma stopped being distributed to Scottish Rite initiates in 1974 when it was deemed too advanced/complex, or something along those lines.
The current book given to Scottish Rite Masons is "A Bridge to Light", although that I believe is also available for purchase to the public.

It is, indeed. And guess what? It's a reader's guide to Morals & Dogma! Does this fit with your initial statement that

Only time and the gradual shifting of one's perspective through abstract realignment of mental centers, belief systems and understandings would enable the person to be ready to receive the highest forms of knowledge. The mind functions at its very core only in subconscious forms of archetypal symbols.

I think the biggest misunderstanding you have about the Scottish Rite is the concept of things being withheld between 4 and 32 with a gradual revelation. The simple fact of the matter is that people today progress from 4 to 32 in a day or a weekend, all for one low price. You'd be keeping a secret from a guy for a few hours, tops, and reveal it after dinner at the next degree.

That isn't to say that you couldn't spend your entire life learning the lessons of those 29 degrees... there's a lot there. But understanding the significance of each is a matter of personal research & discovery, not institutional presentation or revelation.

It is hard to see any light reading all this virtual finger pointing.
I say- if you want to know about Masonry go to a lodge or wherever/whatever and go find out with your actual physical self what it is all about rather than taking someones word for it on a forum.
This works both ways pro or anti Mason.

Problem solved?

Yeah, I know it takes all the fun out of this

[edit on 7/15/2008 by liamoohay]

reply to post by JoshNorton

Dante & Milton popularized the current beliefs of devils & fire & brimstone, but it's not in the Bible... only in works of fiction.

True, but is the bible not a work of fiction?

Originally posted by Grafilthy
True, but is the bible not a work of fiction?

One step at a time. The first step is to get the Bible-thumpers to realize that half of what they believe isn't actually IN the bible.

Originally posted by onlyhurtsu
Understanding high truths doesnt have jack to do with intelligence....it has to do with SEEING...the ability to perceive in many new ways.

Originally posted by onlyhurtsu
I know that to give endlessly is wise and to not withhold secrets. So if they are so wise....then out with it if its that damn important. They dont even have to say its freemasonry. Just put it out there for us to soak up.

Originally posted by onlyhurtsu
So whos the Idiot, me or those not sharing secrets. And if they dont have powerful secrets , then who cares anyway, we can get it from the many other sources. What im saying is , why withhold crucial info, if its not alreasy out there?

I would absolutely agree that the ability to "See" is the thing. Although I think that your definition that it is perceiving in many new ways is not how I would phrase it. It isnt supernatural. It is seeing, what really is, without looking through the filter of the minds desires, beliefs, prejudgments, etc. It isnt magic. It is the most simple way of looking at the world. (Which is why Jesus says you must be like a child to enter heaven for instance)

Although it is the most basic and simple way of seeing the world, without these mental filters that distort what is in front of us, it is very difficult for those who attempt to approach this simplistic vision via the mind. (intellectualizing it) In fact, as the Tao de Ching states;

www.chinapage.com...

7. Knowing
Without taking a step outdoors
You know the whole world;
Without taking a peep out the window
You know the colour of the sky.

The more you experience,
The less you know.
The sage wanders without knowing,
Sees without looking,
Accomplishes without acting.

consider also; from "46" in this version;

There is no greater mistake than following desire;There is no greater disaster than forgetting contentment;
There is no greater sickness than seeking attainment;
But one who is content to satisfy his needs
Finds that contentment endures.

No one has this "secret" hidden away. It is in every tradition that I have studied, from the Hindu to the ancient Greek, to Christianity, the Eastern, it is everywhere. For those who cannot read, or choose not to, it is in the world itself. It can come to you in dreams. In a sudden flash of insight while awake. It is accessible to anyone who stops seeking it, and just looks at it.

Groups who pretend they have some missing magic piece that they can share with you if you pay for it, with your soul, loyalty, $29.95, etc., are tricksters who would not know the Truth if it bit them in the @$$. Those who think this "secret" is to be passed from "them" to "you" are missing another fundamental truth. That is also alluded to in all the sacred texts. There is no "other." No distinction between us that is real. No division that is other than illusion. You already hold the "secret." Each of us does, in what appears to be individuality, and what would appear to be collectively. These tricksters have a parallel in you, as they must, as they are not really separate from you, it is your thinking mind. That same mind that tells you this secret must be found, bought or won. The mind has never had the secret, it is the Awareness that IS the secret, and the mind and the Awareness are confused for the same but are not.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
No one has this "secret" hidden away. It is in every tradition that I have studied, from the Hindu to the ancient Greek, to Christianity, the Eastern, it is everywhere. For those who cannot read, or choose not to, it is in the world itself. It can come to you in dreams. In a sudden flash of insight while awake. It is accessible to anyone who stops seeking it, and just looks at it.

Groups who pretend they have some missing magic piece that they can share with you if you pay for it, with your soul, loyalty, $29.95, etc., are tricksters who would not know the Truth if it bit them in the @$$. Those who think this "secret" is to be passed from "them" to "you" are missing another fundamental truth.

So which side of this do you think Masonry falls on? You acknowledge that the knowledge is in the Masonic writings that Kilgore Trout introduced you to, and that just because someone's a Mason doesn't mean they can't achieve enlightenment Would you classify Masons as those who are asking for money & loyalty in exchange for the teaching?

Again, I've never seen it put forward that Masonry is the only way to reach this. I don't think any Mason I've ever met would make such a ridiculous claim. On the other hand, I'm not alone in believing that the studying of Masonic teaching is one of many ways to get there.

So Masonry as a means to enlightenment... Good? Bad? Bit of both? (realizing the world is never as simple as black & white) Just curious your take on things.

[edit on 7/15/2008 by JoshNorton]

Originally posted by Fulcrum29
That was a frivolous and mostly hollow "rebuttal". In case you didn't notice, this thread is in SUPPORT of Masonry not condemnation or criticism. I made it as a backlash against the recent rash of narrow minded attacks on Masonry so your accusational and frivolous tone is quite out of place.

Hallow? Yeah, I guess that is what happens when I respond to something with no substance. You immediately took up the attack position when I mentioned basic points of truth about masonry. Your fault, not mine. Masonry is rabidly attacked from multiple angles, but it has nothing to do with masonic light being hidden or exclusive.

Originally posted by Fulcrum29
Furthermore, your analogy to college fraternities is weak, considering the fact that most (all?) college fraternities/sororities do not profess to know ancient wisdoms and center themselves around a path to great enlightenment of universal truths.

Actually its not, as most college fraternities do propose these exact things. Also, masonry never claims this, it just claims that it has universal truths - which are not exclusive in possession of the fraternity - but are still universal in nature.

I decided not to respond to the rest of your post, since it was just defensive posturing. I agree that masonry is attacked with fierce and foaming at the mouth glee from multiple angles. I do not agree that the nature of this attack has anything to do with the exclusive nature of masonic light (as it is not exclusive) or masonic knowledge. It may actually come in fact because people believe as you do - that masons are the holders of some ancient and archaic knowledge that we aren't sharing.

[edit on 15-7-2008 by ALightinDarkness]