U.S. Defends Laptop Searches At The Border

My buddy was coming back from a business trip in the states, we live in canada, he had purchased a used laptop on his way back from somewhere, possibly a yardsale or some wholesale , he didn't explain, but when he got back to the border they did a search on it, found piles of stuff he couldn't explain, lots of downloaded music and movies... he was lucky he had a nice officer at the border that let him go, but they seized his brand new dual core laptop, he was pissed... they just told him your free to go and he asked for his laptop and they said it was in the hands of the government now... he told me he paid just over $800 canadian, almost his whole check on that laptop to have it seized, he never looked through it yet just threw it in the backseat of his car.... lol

I think the best thing to do here is take an old and worn out laptop, that nobody really wants and your friends just threw away - fill it with all sorts of viruses, spams, trojans, worms, basicly every possible threat to a computer - and then let them download all the data then want to and just giggle in the back.

yah...if it's that important to travel over borders with a computer... and you can afford to travel over borders, keeping your information on your own server and accessing it via the net when you get there is best.

just bring a dummy laptop and bring a copy of windows with you. upload your work and fry the drive on the way home...

about 3 hrs of your trip wasted, but whatever...

and please, for most of us if your going on vacation... leave the laptop at home and unplug for a few days lol

Originally posted by joesomebody
Oh, and use Linux. If your computer boots up to the bash instead of Xwindows, you first have to login and startx to use anything graphically, which is enough to confuse people who are considered "1337" in regard to windoze. LoL.

[edit on 12-7-2008 by joesomebody]

agreed, that what i do on my laptop with archlinux and even leave some services disabled by default on boot up. this kinda makes me wanna use openbsd for furthur obscurity and confusion lol

reply to post by DimensionalDetective


This is utter and complete nonsense, being that they are allowed to search your computer. It's total and complete crap, and a violation of multiple laws that are supposed to protect us from this totally 100%. It's unlawful search and seizure, of your information, of who you are, and what activities you do altogether. Mixed with this the baloney excuse of searching for "Copyright Infringement Materials" or anything else you want to throw into the mix there, is complete and utter nonsense.

This is plain and outright searching for people leaving the country with the intent to never come back, searching for any intelligence data, technological information that may be slipping out due to mass migration out of the United States of America.

All of these things are easily enough avoided of course, leave your laptop at home, and of course, spend more money, which seems to be another drive to everyone else's economy, meanwhile screwing ours further in the longrun.

The Nazi's went searching through everyone's personal effects, right before the blitzkrieg into Poland, and it seems that possibly Iran may be perhaps be the next Poland, since we all know Iraq was a staging ground just to get closer to more and more war with Iran, surrounding an enemy, no matter whether I believe or disbelieve that Iran or Iraq is in fact the enemy of America or personally anyone else here within our country, I find it extremely hard to believe that these idiots in Washington D.C. actually believe we believe their lies and propaganda, at all.

Wait, maybe Iraq was Poland, since our beloved President was so gung-ho to lie and fabricate, oh wait I'm sorry, the C.I.A. was so complicit and willing to make false intelligence data in order to get us sucked into a NEEDLESS war.



[edit on 13-7-2008 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
reply to post by DimensionalDetective

 

This is utter and complete nonsense, being that they are allowed to search your computer. It's total and complete crap, and a violation of multiple laws that are supposed to protect legally us from this totally 100%. It's unlawful search and seizure, of your information, of who you are, and what activities you do altogether. Mixed with this the baloney excuse of searching for "Copyright Infringement Materials" or anything else you want to throw into the mix there, is complete and utter nonsense.

When we talk about customs, we have to remember that normal laws do not apply. One senior Canadian customs official explained to me (after several drinks) that the Canadian view, which is generally representative of other Western countries, is that customs officers interview you before you enter the country. The argument being that if they did not, they would not be able to deny you entrance to the country. If they decided you were unwelcome after you entered the country, they would have to go through the process of deporting you.

Because they are doing their job while you are still outside Canada, Canadian law does not apply to you and cannot apply to you until you are actually clear customs and enter the county. The rules that govern customs behavior are set out in separate legislation to provide a policy framework and procedures for Customs officers to follow. Many of those policies constrain customs officers to act in a manner consistent with Canadian law but there is no requirement for this to be the case. Oh yes, I should mention before anybody thinks they found a loophole, the customs officers are within Canada and the legal issue is not so much crossing a physical border as being allowed to legally enter the county -- until you have that permission, you are "outside" the legal jurisdiction of the country and only under the jurisdiction of the appropriate customs regulations. Illegal entries into the county are a whole other legal matter.

Usually the traveler does have the option of refusing to comply with customs officers. The usual outcome of this is that you will be denied entry and have to return to your point of origin. Refusing to comply with a customs official is sufficient grounds for refusing entry. And to to make it worse, if you attempt to enter later on, the fact that you were refused entry on a previous occasion is sufficient grounds for refusing entry again.

So if you are entering the a county and Customs demands to see your hard drive, an appeal to your "rights" under that country's laws, unless it is Customs Law, is only good for a chuckle on their part.

Why don't they need a warrant to search peoples personal property? What allows them to not obey the constitution.

Man this makes me want to fly . lol .. I would load so many viruses and backdoors that they would take years to clean anything they read the files with ,
This is a horrible injustice . How many actual terrorists have been shown to use or even own a laptop ?

reply to post by metamagic


So, the gist of this I'm getting here, is that while you are at Customs, you are officially within a "Political No-Man's Land", similar in fact to the Berlin Wall, in that anyone in the middle can be turned back for any reason.

HHHmmm...I wonder when the barbed-wire and machine-gun nests will roll out?

I wasn't specifying Canada so much as the United States roll and involvement in all of this, but I understand clearly what Customs Officer's do, and while I've never been turned away at the border, I have been interviewed several times, having been to Australia three times, it's a part of the process if a Customs Officer sees you are lost, or they think you might be someone important to question.

My particular case, several times, was being in a different country, and watching the signs of where to go, the Officer was polite and asked general questions to test why I was in the country, which is normal.

On that note, has anyone else noticed the web banner's on ATS lately?

There's one with U.S. Customs hiring.



[edit on 13-7-2008 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

They have been going through our suitcases (at the airport) since before I was born, I am middle age now. Never heard that it was unconstitutional to search a suitcase, never saw a thread about it, never heard you mention it.

How is it more unconstitutional to search a laptop than a suitcase? Why weren't you upset about the suitcase search?

My guess is that it truly is necesarry to search suitcases if you want to make sure no bombs are on board, and coupled with that you are conditioned over time to accept the searching of the suitcase. I could certainly use my laptop as a detonator with only an associates degree in electronics, and maybe even only with an updated of one of the mishevious cookbooks (i havent seen one since the internet came out, however I am sure they are still out there). Point being as much damage or more can be done with a laptop than a suitcase. why wouldnt they search it?

[edit on 13-7-2008 by jprophet420]

This is utter and complete nonsense, being that they are allowed to search your computer. It's total and complete crap, and a violation of multiple laws that are supposed to protect legally us from this totally 100%. It's unlawful search and seizure, of your information, of who you are, and what activities you do altogether. Mixed with this the baloney excuse of searching for "Copyright Infringement Materials" or anything else you want to throw into the mix there, is complete and utter nonsense.

They aren't allowed.

You grant them permission.

Read what you agree to before you buy something (i.e. a plane ticket).

So I do not understand and I am very worried.
I am in Italy atm and am worried when I travel back to the states, will my computer be searched for illegal music?? I have a ton as well as movies...what do I do??

I wonder: will encrypting certain files protect them from third-party eyes? Or can the DHS penetrate 128-bit encryption?

Everything that has ever been on your PC is stored in a log. It can be accessed even if the files are deleted. That includes all websites visited (ATS, INFOWARS). To take care of that issue, try installing and using "System Cleaner 5".

This intrigues me for the following reasons.
Let us assume that the incident that started this all the, attacks on 9/11 went as we are being told by the powers that be.. This means that the "terrorist" organization that planned is a well educated, finely tuned entity. The amount of planning and strategizing to successfully pull of the deed shows a level of technology and intelligence.
Bearing this in mind, I can think of a myriad of ways to access manipulate data remotely, leaving no traces on the host.
This in turn brings me to one of two conclusions. Either the powers that be are under the assumption that any "terrorist" entity would be so stupid to stay "standard", the powers that be are stupid enough to think the "terrorists" are that stupid.
This goes with the assumption that the general public is that stupid to believe the stupidity. Thus this thing is geared toward the stupid to believe in and trust. Stupid is as stupid does.

Originally posted by jprophet420
How is it more unconstitutional to search a laptop than a suitcase? Why weren't you upset about the suitcase search?

I probably would be slightly upset if they searched through my suitcase as i don't much like anyone going through my things. They would only be searching through my clothing, underclothes, toiletries, etc, so it wouldn't be anything major.



My computer, cell phone, etc, is a totally different matter though, i have personal information on these things that no one has a right to look at without a court order. The simple fact of me going into another country does not give them probable cause, nor the right to gain access to my contact list, personal pictures, and a history of where i choose to go on the net. Not only are they gaining access to these things, but they are also gaining the opportunity to copy all of these files, and if they so choose plant any thing in my devices that they see fit.



Now if they have enough evidence against me to go to a judge and obtain a warrant to do this ( which would give them a reason to see my contact list, etc ) then by all means go ahead and do it, but until then i am an innocent person and should be treated as such. The fact of me traveling to another country does not make me guilty of being a terrorist or child pornographer, and i should not be treated as such.



The other problem is that right now they are doing this to people that travel internationally and if it is allowed to continue the next step is for them to do it when we travel between states. Then before you know it they'll have checkpoints on the roads for people traveling by car and then we'll be in nazi germany. They do these things a little at a time so that it is not so noticeable, before we know it we won't have any rights left at all.

reply to post by mantic

you're special, you can hack, welcome to the club. Everybody else stores their information on their laptops, including most terrorists. It's plain and boring but it's fact. As far as using it as an excuse to search for copywrite infringement, I dont know what to say.

I look back to my analogy of the suitcase.

you have 5 kilos of marijuana.
you take the marijuana though customs.
you get caught.

youre rights have been infringed?

you have 5 Gigabytes of copywritten information to which you have no license.
you take the pirated information through customs.
you get caught.

The logical conclusion that I arrive at is 'don't try to smuggle illegal contraband through customs'.

I do understand how people can question the 'illegal search and seizure' aspect of it, but as I mentioned just by purchasing the ticket to fly you agree to all kinds of things including being searched. That pretty much nullifies any case you have. I've never came in canada way but I've gone through customs from Mexico to the US plenty of times. I'm not in the US when I approach the border, US law does not effect me. I am a guest of Mexico at this point in time.

Thats at the border. I would expect it to be reasonable that If I flew from lets say Denver to LA at LAX they might check my laptop for any number of malicious things, as we all well know can be on there. Kiddie porn, plans for any number illicit things or activities, etc etc. If I had a bulging duffle bag I would expect it be suspect to any number of plots until proven innocent.

The Ben Fraqnklin quote comes up and what you really have to ask yourself is:
"Is not being searched at the airport really a liberty?"
And so rephrase the question and ask again, "Why were we so quick to give up the liberty of not having our suitcases searched?".

Now if they have enough evidence against me to go to a judge and obtain a warrant to do this ( which would give them a reason to see my contact list, etc ) then by all means go ahead and do it, but until then i am an innocent person and should be treated as such.

Same goes with your suitcase, but as I said you already agreed to it when you bought a ticket.

Originally posted by jprophet420

Thats at the border. I would expect it to be reasonable that If I flew from lets say Denver to LA at LAX they might check my laptop for any number of malicious things, as we all well know can be on there. Kiddie porn, plans for any number illicit things or activities, etc etc. If I had a bulging duffle bag I would expect it be suspect to any number of plots until proven innocent.

Why would that be considered reasonable, does just the fact that a person is traveling make them suspect of being a criminal and give probable cause ?



I'm sorry, but that's where you're wrong, we are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, not guilty until proven innocent.



edited to correct mistake.



[edit on 13/7/08 by chise61]

reply to post by jprophet420



That doesn't mean that it's right for them to search through people's things without probable cause, nor should it be allowed. The simple act of traveling does not give probable cause.