U.S. Defends Laptop Searches At The Border

Originally posted by verylowfrequency




Show me any agreement that they can search our personal files. There isn't one and you're FOS.

That is not part of any agreement we sign receiving our tickets or even passports.


[edit on 14-7-2008 by verylowfrequency]

There isn't any "agreement" or "fine print" on your airline ticket or passport that delineates what a custom agent can or can't do.....in essence, it is up the to the individual to accept of reject entry. In other words, if you want to enter the U.S. (or, for that matter, any country) it is entirely at the discretion of the border guards (sic, custom agents).

The border is a rather strange piece of political turf.....if you want entry....you do as you are asked or you can be refused entry.....it is as simple as that. No notice on your airline ticket....no fine print on your travel brochure or passport. If you don't like the level of inspection that is being conducted upon your person or personal belongings, don't enter the country....remain where you are. It's really as simple as that.

As federal law enforcement agents, custom officials are allowed, through the tacit agreement that you initiated (the desire to gain admittance into the U.S.), to search your person, your body and your belongings (the items that you wish to import into the U.S.) This, by definition, can clearly include the intellectual contents of your paper files and/or digital files. If you don't wish to accept a thorough search, it is up to you to decline entry into the U.S.

reply to post by benevolent tyrant


I don't believe you even believe what your saying Mr. tyrant. Maybe in Canada you guys will fall for that, but I'll happily behead anyone who attempts to invade my privacy in the manner you're suggesting and I bet more than half of my brothers here in the U.S. would agree with me.

I'm telling you right now that we will not allow them to do that (it's not going to happen) and I'm telling you that the Americans would rather see them dead than allow them to perform those types of searches on American citizens.

It is not happening except for a few screwballs who are pushing their authority and I'm confident that the courts will side with the views of the American traveling public who are the holders of most of the wealth in this country - not to forget we have a Constitution and it remains intact and our rights are not given up while traveling - we just don't have them in other countries with other governments - but our government servants cannot arbitrarily ignore them when we are traveling or when we return home.

That is why we have a constitution - in order to protect is from the scum that always grows amongst the class of government servants in the past, present and future.

Of course if I go to China or some other non-human rights country I would expect that type of behavior and be equal prepared for it, but if a group of my countrymen begin acting like the NAZI Gestapo they will be jailed, thrown out of our country or killed.

I request that one person who has had their files searched here or who has searched files speak up about it. I suggest that it is not happening with the possible exception of people who have warrants out or who have given them probable cause to perform such a search. Now I'm not talking about voluntarily turning on and performing a few simple functions for the purpose of showing your phone or computer works, I'm talking about full blown scanning, reading or copying data - it ain't happening and it won't.

[edit on 14-7-2008 by verylowfrequency]

Heh! If someone would like to give them something really juicy to look at, why not set up the software for a false website that lists the spouses of a lot of the DHS Officers as clients seeking "alternative relationships?" Maybe setup on a flashdrive or something so that such info can be quickly loaded onto the laptop?

Make sure you have a backup of your real comp data, or have it mailed/delivered out ahead of you (on flashdrives or something) so that you can pick it up at your destination.

Another alternative would be to produce some form-letters that require the DHS Officers must sign before they can examine your comp: To the effect that anyone who demands to examine or copy the data may be held liable to charges of "industrial espionage" or something like that. You may even ask your employer to create some real & official form letters to that effect! This may even intimidate them enough to let you pass without examination...

Could you not just put your laptop in your luggage and not carry on??

How could they search than...customs is before bagge claim...atleast in italy.

reply to post by DimensionalDetective


I've made two border crossings in the recent past - driving across into Canada and back to the US. My computer has never been searched. So, I would surmise that the "offended" ones have brought attention to themselves in one way or another and desreve this scrutiny. It's kind of like people in jail; they are there for a reason.

Originally posted by verylowfrequency
reply to post by jprophet420

 

We give them permission to look for bombs weapons or anything that is dangerous to the safe operation of the aircraft. That means they are free to make sure our computer is not loaded with Semtex or its equivalent. That does not mean they can search our intellectual property.

Show me any agreement that they can search our personal files. There isn't one and you're FOS.
From the TOS at ATL.

All laptops and video cameras must be removed from their case. They are subjected to both x-ray and physical inspection.

Try to enslave me and I will take a bath in your families blood and then I will fertilize my crops with your remnants.

[edit on 14-7-2008 by verylowfrequency]

reply to post by jprophet420


X-rays and physical inspections do not equate to reading data. Physical means hardware inspection. X-Rays means hardware scanning and they don't read files.

Let me tell you the answer to the age old question "How do I hide something?"

The first time I read one of these threads related to electronic device searches, I was reminded of my high school days when I used to have a thermos which had a secret flask compartment inside the liner. You actually had to remove the bottom of the thermos to get at it, but it a great way for a 16 year old to bring a few ounces of vodka or other, uh, contraband (assuming the secret flask part was dry inside) to school with him. I've since been keeping my eyes on the various disguised storage products on the market and have seen some really cool, really well done ones, including:

dominos

Legos (Both fantastic ideas for traveling with children... just mix them in with "real" dominos or Legos prior to hitting customs.)

Pens

There are tons of these things out there on the market.

reply to post by verylowfrequency

Opening a laptop and powering it on and typing on the keyboard is literally physical inspection.

I understand what you are saying, trying to draw the differentiation between physical hardware and software. I agree that the diferentiation exists, however you must access software via some physical method.

...having substance or material existence; perceptible to the senses; "a physical manifestation"; "surrounded by tangible objects"...

...a formal or official examination...

Can someone tell me whether or not you can store your laptop in your briefcase instead of carrying it with you through customs??

Originally posted by chise61

Originally posted by sayzaar
and probably eventually, have a PARTY with your daughters,wives and girlfriends, all in the name of national security. I think it's time everyone said aloud 'enoughs enough. terrorism may be a threat but we'll take our chances thanks'!!!

I think you're right, unless we do something to stop what they're getting away with now, taking your daughters, wives, girlfriends along with your laptop seems like the next step. This isn't a free country anymore, seems like the only freedom we have left is the freedom to do what they tell us to do, we have let them slowly take away one right after another. This is no longer the America it was meant to be and it's only going to get progressively worse unless we do something to put an end to it.



We have a right to our privacy. Traveling to another country isn't probable cause for search and seziure. If we allow them to continue these ss tactics before we know it every cop will have the authority to do the same to anybody walking down the street, or driving with a laptop, cell phone, ipod, or mp3 player. It's a madd, madd world we live in today and it just keeps getting worse !



It's funny our troops are off fighting for other peoples freedoms, but what i wanna know is who the hell is fighting for ours ?

So very well put !!!!! "It's funny our troops are off fighting for other peoples freedoms, but what i wanna know is who the hell is fighting for ours ?"
Any answers to that ???????

Originally posted by verylowfrequency
X-rays and physical inspections do not equate to reading data.

True, but do you have any idea what X-Rays does to computer-stored data files? That's not a simple matter of violating the 4th Amendment...That's actual destruction of the media storage!
Modern day book-burning, anyone?

If the computer is checked in through luggage-handling, it should have a prominently-displayed sticker that says, "Electronic Data--Do Not X-Ray." Will that need to be done to prevent the DHS agents from X-raying your laptop before going on board with you?

Originally posted by Rocker-Mtl
"It's funny our troops are off fighting for other peoples freedoms, but what i wanna know is who the hell is fighting for ours ?"
Any answers to that ???????

Well, to put it simply, since it was WE the People that established the Constitution for our government employees (the Constitution is, in effect, a "contract of employment"), only We the People can make them adhere to their legally-binding Oaths of Office to obey it.

Funny that you should mention our troops...Even they have to take an Oath to uphold the Constitution too. I know, because I was in the military & I still remember that Oath. Another part of that Oath includes "defending my country from all enemies, foreign & domestic"...So what happens when the military figures out that many of their Superior Officers are actually those very same enemies of the Constitution?

[edit on 18-7-2008 by MidnightDStroyer]

All this fuss and BS over really nothing use a removable HD and carry it outside of the laptop. Customs CANNOT make you insert the hard drive for inspection. I worked for CBP/DHS. So please put the constitution soapboxes away and return to normal space.

[edit on 19-7-2008 by djvexd]

As far as who is fighting for us to uphold our constitution it's we the people who are responsible to fight for ourselves and the first step is talking about it like were doing now - here.

reply to post by MidnightDStroyer


Actually it's not the X-rays that are most dangerous to your storage - it's the metal detectors that can magnetically wipe your data or film. That's why they do physical inspections in the first place - so they don't have lawsuits from damaging peoples equipment - not because they want to read your hard drives.

Originally posted by benevolent tyrant
There isn't any "agreement" or "fine print" on your airline ticket or passport that delineates what a custom agent can or can't do.....in essence, it is up the to the individual to accept of reject entry. In other words, if you want to enter the U.S. (or, for that matter, any country) it is entirely at the discretion of the border guards (sic, custom agents).

Considering that the US Government upholds the UCC, Uniform Commercial Code, higher in authority than the Constitution (Yeah, try to uphold your Constitutional Rights in court & you're likely to get slapped with Contempt charges), then the UCC itself shows the illegality of such searches.

The UCC 1-203 & UCC 1-207 specifies the remedy & recourse clauses that protect all parties to any legal contract...In this case, since all of the search parameters are not printed on the ticket or even posted anywhere, then they've violated the "non-disclosure" clauses: All contracts (including the purchase & use of traveling tickets) must enjoy full disclosure of all terms & conditions of everything within the contract itself...Without full disclosure, the contract itself has been violated & the injuring party can be brought to court to pay for the repercussions of their violations.

People who are detained for search, without full disclosure of the methods of searching at the time of the ticket being purchased, have been violated by Contract Law.