what makes you think Isreal stole land in 1948?

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


The Negev was given to Israel in the partition plan.

Personally, I couldn't give a monkeys about that, seems to me your picking holes to try and defend a position. had the Israelis stuck to the 1947 plan, then this mess would have been sorted out a long time ago.

As it stands, they have seized more than they were given and settled it, despite it being against International law for them to do so.

As for your Jordan question, the Jordanian Army (known as the Arab Legion) were trained and staffed by British Officers.

As a result of this professionalism, they were the only ones to be able to actually stand up to the IDF and score victories.

They held onto the land they took in the War because to not do so would have have allowed Israel to move in afterwards, as the Palestinians were not organised nor did they have any form of leadership, at least not enough to be able to govern themselves or stand up to the IDF.

for those living in the West bank, it was a far more preferable outcome considering the options.

What utter stupidity, this thread is. Say, if a group of advanced humans (or any species) traveled to space back in the ancient past, then decides to take back the earth now claiming it's theirs, would you allow them to?

It was the Jews' fault for not being strong enough against the superior Romans, Babylonians, Egyptians, Assyrians, Persians, etc. They left (by virtue of being utterly inferior and weak), so they forfeited ownership. Give them their own land in Antarctica.

reply to post by DaleGribble


yes i know this ,and the District of Columbia as well
but those are not whole countries...

Why do these types of threads always devolve into a jab fest?

In any case, the Bible is pretty clear that in the "last days" the Hebrew people will be regathered from among the nations into the land that God gave them. Without doubt that is happening, regardless of whether or not you believe in God.

If you don't believe in God, well why even argue about this? If you do, isn't it more important to realize what Jews in Israel (after almost 2000 years) signifies? With all of the crazy things that are happening...
you'd think more people would be noticing, especially ATS folks.

reply to post by stumason

Negev - yes i know. I just wanted to show that first map is problematic. It shows Jewish land in white and all the rest in green , but who owned it - all was owned by Palestinian Arabs? There was a lot of government land.

My point in Jordan question is trying to describe the situation. Arab countries refused to accept partition plan and declared war on Israel that did accept it. So Israel took lands and to whom they had to return it? To Jordan? Syria?Egypt? Or to non-existing as far as Arab leaders then stood Palestine?All those did not accept idea of Israel as a country. Why Jordan, after stopping Israel and signing cease fire did not release Palestine? And why Palestinian leaders did not demand to be released from Jordan and did not demanded their lands that Israel took back? You say that Israel did not agree to 1947 plan - who did then. Those that said that Israel is not accepted .....

reply to post by WarBow


i thought this has been a rather civil thread, when you think about the touchy content. maybe on the first page. but i think we are haveing a civil adult debate compaired to most...

reply to post by homo_borg


Exactly!

I don't think for a moment the English would be able to demand Germany and Denmark hands over our ancestral lands, or for the French to be able to claim territory in Northern Germany, or the Germans being able to claim lands now occupied by Slavic people, or the Breton's being able to claim all of France, or the Basques being able to claim parts of Britain, or those in Normandy claiming parts of Scandinavia, or...

You see where I am going? Probably not as most people haven't a scooby friggin do about much beyond the end of their nose.

Originally posted by WarBow
In any case, the Bible is pretty clear that in the "last days" the Hebrew people will be regathered from among the nations into the land that God gave them. Without doubt that is happening, regardless of whether or not you believe in God.

If you don't believe in God, well why even argue about this? If you do, isn't it more important to realize what Jews in Israel (after almost 2000 years) signifies? With all of the crazy things that are happening...
you'd think more people would be noticing, especially ATS folks.

I do believe in God but you have to realize that madmen everywhere (Rothschilds, anyone?) want to see the fulfillment of ancient prophecies that may or may not have been written by God just for the sake of it.

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


The idea was originally to have a two state solution, but the Arab refusal made that difficult. What Israel should have done after the war was enable to Palestinians to set up their state after the wars, but they didn't. They kept the land, expelled most Arabs/Palestinians and settled their own people. This was the cause of the subsequent wars and the state of play today.

Israel and the Arabs should both abide by the 1947 agreement. This was the fairest solution to what was a problem that would always have been difficult.

Ironically, the Nazi's first plan for the Jews was to deport them to their own land, but the war turning sour made them come up with the "Final Solution".

Also, the Jews were originally going to be given land in Africa, not quite sure why that idea went funky though.

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
reply to post by stumason

 

Negev - yes i know. I just wanted to show that first map is problematic. It shows Jewish land in white and all the rest in green , but who owned it - all was owned by Palestinian Arabs? There was a lot of government land.

So, since it was 'government land' the Jews can have it as much as they please?

Stumason
I agree with you on those points. No,really. I just think that leaders involved had to be super-wise to think not only about short term gain but to consider the long run with all the conflict and fightings. Was not the case and so the conflict is going on and on. However i think that if other side had similarly wise leaders and 1947 plan was not rejected the war would not happen, Israel would not capture anything and refugees would not be thrown out.

Homo-Borg - well, your signature is not enough as an answer? Seriously though - government land should be shown on this map in different colors. Does not matter who will receive what part of it. Because it just deceived the viewer that UN partition was completely outrageous when it was a little outrageous.

Originally posted by homo_borg
What utter stupidity, this thread is. Say, if a group of advanced humans (or any species) traveled to space back in the ancient past, then decides to take back the earth now claiming it's theirs, would you allow them to?

It was the Jews' fault for not being strong enough against the superior Romans, Babylonians, Egyptians, Assyrians, Persians, etc. They left (by virtue of being utterly inferior and weak), so they forfeited ownership. Give them their own land in Antarctica.

yes it is utterly stupid when you keep adding all of this what if crap.

also if you look back through history you will see that everyone isreal has lost to they have came back and made amends. each and everytime.

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


Ha, just think how much better the world would be if we all had sensible leaders!

Both sides are at fault here, to be honest. Questions aside from just why Jews needed their own land and whether they were entitled to it, what happens now is important. If they could just agree to a sensible and fair solution (ie, the 1947 partition) without the posturing or land grabbing, this problem would go away.

Originally posted by stumason
Both sides are at fault here, to be honest. Questions aside from just why Jews needed their own land and whether they were entitled to it, what happens now is important. If they could just agree to a sensible and fair solution (ie, the 1947 partition) without the posturing or land grabbing, this problem would go away.

yes even though we disagree on the legality of Isreal. this is something we see eye to eye on.

back to disagreeing. its my turn to violate the cease fire:

in the 1990's isreal tried to give land back. however extremeist were using this land to try killing as many jews as they could. it would make since to me for isreal to try to control this land. has they been oppressive yeah, but not unjustly i think. sadly being under oppression is the only way to make some people see the err of their ways.

[edit on 15pmu72007 by DaleGribble]

I also don't understand the accusations of the Jews 'stealing the land.' Palestine was international territory under the domain of Turkey and Britain. It was not a sovereign state. They Jews were diplomatically allowed to return to Israel as their homeland starting with the Balfour Declaration of 1917. Later the Mandate of Palestine was pretty much canceled. After WWII, the land was finally declared a sovereign Israeli state. If anything, they were given the land. They did not steal anything. Then in 1967 they won Jerusalem fair and square but were still cordial enough to give sections of it back to the Arabs.

At least that is what I can remember. I'm a bit rusty. Sorry.

Originally posted by DaleGribble
yes it is utterly stupid when you keep adding all of this what if crap.

also if you look back through history you will see that everyone isreal has lost to they have came back and made amends. each and everytime.

So? That's license to steal land in these modern times?

And what's so "what ifish" about this thread? We're talking facts here.

[edit on 7/11/08 by homo_borg]

Why is no one else flagging this thread? There's that much Jew-hating here?

Flagged.

Originally posted by homo_borg

Originally posted by DaleGribble
yes it is utterly stupid when you keep adding all of this what if crap.

also if you look back through history you will see that everyone isreal has lost to they have came back and made amends. each and everytime.

So? That's license to steal land in these modern times?

And what's so "what ifish" about this thread? We're talking facts here.

[edit on 7/11/08 by homo_borg]

that is just my point im trying to talk just the facts and i keep getting bombarded with "what if".

isreal didnt steal the land it was given to them. they took the west bank and gaza yes.

let me ask you a what if:

what if your neighbors kept launching attacks on you and yours. would you not try and control this as much as possible. and might you even call a friend from another neighbor hood to help supply you...

Originally posted by DaleGribble
isreal didnt steal the land it was given to them. they took the west bank and gaza yes.

let me ask you a what if:

what if your neighbors kept launching attacks on you and yours. would you not try and control this as much as possible. and might you even call a friend from another neighbor hood to help supply you...

You mean a puppet to help you? A powerful puppet?

While we're at it why don't someone give the gypsies their own land?

Originally posted by homo_borg
It was the Jews' fault for not being strong enough against the superior Romans, Babylonians, Egyptians, Assyrians, Persians, etc. They left (by virtue of being utterly inferior and weak), so they forfeited ownership. Give them their own land in Antarctica.

I guess their weakness is why no one has stolen the land from them again. Right.

It seems to me that the Jews have endured enough over the last few decades. If the Palestine wants the Gaza strip back they might stop all the bombing and rocket attacks and try to do it democratically. Everyone always bashes the Jews for their treatment of those people(I’m not saying its right.) But no one ever bashes the suicide bombs killing innocent people. Every time the Jews come close to giving in, their hand is forced and they have to utterly destroy the people of Palestine and the Gaza strip. Can you really blame them for the attacks after being rocketed by unguided rockets that are fired blindly with no target in mind.