what makes you think Isreal stole land in 1948?

reply to post by DaleGribble


yes but they were called the Israelites and "GOD" said they were the chosen ones..

this is all biblical bs..

I don`t see a land called islahmiland or budda land or...well
you see what I mean.

I religion cannot have their own country...

reply to post by Maya432


the catholics have their own nation.

www.vaticanstate.va...

Originally posted by DaleGribble
sorry voxel but im not this gymnist you speak of. i was comparing my point of veiw to the other post. but its alright im giving you premission to twist my words to fit your agenda.

My agenda? Yeah that is right: I by replying to your apologist OP about the state of Israel have an agenda. What is your agenda? Since, apparently you can't have an opinion without an agenda.

Fine let me ask you a simple question so that you can try to weasel yourself out of another ideological paradox:

If a group composed of the right Native American tribe came to your house with weapons and told you to leave, would you feel it was OK because their ancestors had your land first?

All I want is a simple answer to that one question. Anything else said is just hand waving to cover up an agenda.

Jon

reply to post by Voxel


Nobody was supposed to come with weapons and through people out. There should be no 1948 war. Guess who started it...
And hey ,where Arab forces were victorious - do you think Jews were not thrown out with from their own paid for areas?
There was no country called Palestine. So if there was no war there would be two independent countries 60 years ago with no one thrown out. Instead of zero countries situation that was in the place for 2000 years.
Of course one wrong does not make other wrong just. But you comparison is not valid.

reply to post by Voxel


if they took back what was theirs, sure. however i would not hand it over.

was that simple enough.

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


Yeah the "Israelis" started it, not the Arabs as you like to point out. Zero, why is that you refuse to accept the the Israeli people have not been angels? You refuse to accept any kind of wrong doing by Israelis. I am not saying they are all bad, but from the very start they were going to get their own country whether it was given to them or not.

Chaim Weizmann, president of the World Zionist Organization, placed maximalist demands before the Paris Peace Conference in February 1919. He stated that he expected 70,000 to 80,000 Jewish immigrants to arrive each year in Palestine. When they became the majority, they would form an independent government and Palestine and would become: "as Jewish as England is English". Weizmann proposed that the boundaries should be the Mediterranean Sea on the west; Sidon, the Litani River, and Mount Hermon on the north; all of Transjordan west of the Hijaz railway on the east; and a line across Sinai from Aqaba to al-Arish on the south. He argued that:

"the boundaries above outlined are what we consider essential for the economic foundation of the country. Palestine must have its natural outlet to the sea and control of its rivers and their headwaters. The boundaries are sketched with the general economic needs and historic traditions of the country in mind."

Weizmann offered the Arab countries a free zone in Haifa and a joint port at Aqaba.

Weizmann's policy was basically in accord with that of the leaders of the yishuv, who held a conference in December 1918 in which they formulated their own demands for the peace conference. The yishuv plan stressed that they must control appointments to the administrative services and that the British must actively assist their program to transform Palestine into a democratic Jewish state in which the Arabs would have minority rights. Although the peace conference did not explicitly allocate such extensive territories to the Jewish national home and did not support the goal of transforming all of Palestine into a Jewish state, it opened the door to such a possibility. More important, Weizmann's presentation stated clearly and forcefully the long-term aims of the movement.

All from here.

There is more there if you want me to go on.

Originally posted by DaleGribble
when in fact they were reclaiming land they lost. Israel dates back 3,400 years. the Jews lost the land in 70 bc to Rome . The British took it in 1917 and named it Palestine. The league of nations handed the UK a mandate in the years 1917 through 1945 calling it the Jewish national home. The Jews actually took their land from Britain not the Arabs the uprising lasted a short 3 years 1945-1948 and just reclaimed it in the last 60 years.

so why do you feel they stole the land?
is it a lack of a good history lesson.



en.wikipedia.org...

not sure if i posted this in the right place.

[edit on 15pmu62007 by DaleGribble]

Well, then, sir. Your logic certainly is flawless. Before the jews held it, various tribes held it for longer. Should we give it back to them, then? Since the Jews "stole" it.

I've always been confused about Israel and Palestine and the fighting between them. And I havent studied up on it. But what Israel (Jews) did was wrong to the Palestines right. Israel just went in and took the land and moved those people out. Why didnt any other Arab countries try and help Palenstine. I'm not saying Israel is wrong or that Palenstine is wrong, but to uproot a society that had lived there for awhile and they had no place to go. that is wrong. Before Israel did this was there fighting in Palenstine and the terriost who blew themselves up?

reply to post by Rook1545


Angels? Israel is not an angel. It did nasty things and good things as any other country.
However i am sure (or brainwashed) that war was declared by Arab countries and i fail to see otherwise in your link. So in 1919 Zionists considered different situation then that was achieved in the end within UN, and Israel leadership in 1948 ACCEPTED partition plan. Arab leadership did not.
Indian and Pakistani national movements in 1919 also considered different borders. It is called politics. However when fanatism makes desicions and not real politics - then after 60 years of conflict Palestinians get less then would have achieved earlier.

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
Nobody was supposed to come with weapons and through people out. There should be no 1948 war. Guess who started it...

Technically that war was against British imperialism. It would be called the Arab-English War if historians had any interest in telling the truth.

For example, after Egypt gained independence from British rule in 1922, they didn't want the same European power setting up a puppet government right next door to them and then encouraging the immigration of Europeans.

The Arabs at the time were much more acutely aware of the threat of imperialism than we are today. The British used the Zionists as their local police force to ensure the failure of Arab solidarity. They needed a war to be sure that the arms, funding, and local nationalism left over from WW2 were completely destroyed.

The Israelis were duped as much as the Arabs had been duped because the Israelis didn't end up with freedom, land, and a home. Instead, they got land and a fascist puppet government and a powerful intelligence service that will happily kill their own citizens for the "greater good."

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
And hey ,where Arab forces were victorious - do you think Jews were not thrown out with from their own paid for areas?

The Jews paid for very little. Most of them were given the money needed to relocate to Israel by various western governments and politically connected "private institutions." Wouldn't you like your government to pay for all your expenses to set up your own government somewhere?

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
Instead of zero countries situation that was in the place for 2000 years.

Wow. Just wow. Zero countries?! Why I am arguing complex geopolitical issues with people who are so clueless?

Guess what it was part of country before WW1. The country was called the Ottoman empire and the land of Israel was part of that Empire for almost 400 years.

Learn a little history that doesn't come from the television and then rejoin this thread.

Jon

reply to post by MahNameABorat


read the thread iv alread answered this question quite a few times and im not gonna repeat myself again. however the answer i gave was my oppinion and nothing more...


to voxel.

that was well laid out. indeed. star for you..

[edit on 15pmu42007 by DaleGribble]

[edit on 15pmu42007 by DaleGribble]

reply to post by Voxel

I probably did not explain properly:
In the area of what was British mandate of Palestine were zero independent countries for 2000 years. Turkey was not in Palestine. Palestine was part of Turkey ,devided in several areas and called totally different. You better use crusaders kingdoms, but the area was different and it was not Arabic.

The Jews paid for very little

Check it out:
www.jnf.org...

Originally posted by DaleGribble
if they took back what was theirs, sure. however i would not hand it over.

I do agree with you on that point. The problem is, it is still "stealing" even if it is historically justified. You seem to have some issue with the word "stole" but in reality it is what happened.

It is kind of funny. We agree in principle but disagree on terminology.

Just one more question so that I can fully understand your POV:

After losing your house, would you then fight against said Native Americans to regain your lost land and home?

Jon

Another thing the OP is missing out on is the fact the land Israel was "given" in 1947 is significantly less than what they control now.



Click the image to see it full size.

As you can see, the Israeli's have seized far more than they were originally given and an awful lot of Arab land has been taken, seized or otherwise appropriated by Israeli's. And before anyone chimes in and says "well, they took it as spoils of war", may I remind you that it is illegal for a country to seize another's land, not to mention to then settle on it.

Looking from that map, you can see what caused all the fuss in the first place and that is blatant land seizures by Israel of area's they had no right too.

reply to post by stumason


This is all fine, but can you (if you like) explain to me two things:
1) Why Negev desert is green in first map? Who owned it? Even now it is almost not populated. It was no body area, and yet it is assumed to be "Palestinian" in this map?
2) After 1948 Palestinian area was smaller then UN allowed. Still, there was center with Jerusalem and such. Why no Palestinian country appeared but Jordan took over? I mean Palestinians so wanted Independence then, that they accepted Jordan to rule instead of at least smaller own country? And how about Jordan's legality in the issue of taking other different country....

I agree with the OP. Israelis are a very intelligent people. Why would they take what is probably the only sliver of land in the mideast that doesn't have oil, if not for some historical reason?

Here's my related hypothetical:

If you were living in a house, and someone (possibly a government) forced you out...
Do you think it would be okay for your grandchildren (or great great great great great great great great grandchildren) to come back to said house and force whoever is occupying the house at the time out with the argument that the house used to belong to them?

reply to post by Voxel


im going to be evasive until i think about this further

i suppose it would depend on how bad my pride was hurt by it.

its a "what if" question ive never thought about.

i think i would. yes. much like the arabs did. i supose it would be an endless cycle until one party or the other gave up or was no longer an issue..

good question..

Originally posted by Voxel

It is kind of funny. We agree in principle but disagree on terminology.

Jon

i dont always articulate very well with a pc. as i rarely use spell check and almost never make long winded posts..

[edit on 15pmu62007 by DaleGribble]

Hey you need to look at Israel from the prophetic, what Israel is today was prophesy to be a state and they would return from all over the world to land called Palestine, now 1000's or year this was prophesy by the prophet Ezekiel 37:21-22 so for all unbelievers this poses a great obstacle, in short what I am about to said will rattle many minds, buy not mine, no one will be able to touch Israel unless the end times are here, well if you want to question that then remember Hitler, remember the 6th day war, bigger nations could not take Israel I wonder why ( you want to know why: GOD) you might not like that but then tell me how? in a nut shell you go against Israel it seem that you end with your butt kick or dead but if you help Israel you get bless ( I wonder why again?) waiting for replies

The believer

reply to post by stumason


it would appear that jordan origanly anexed the west bank but this move was only recognized only by the United Kingdom. and Egypt took Gaza in 1948.


en.wikipedia.org...

this link is very informitive and explains a great deal why isreal gave these lands back to the arabs and eventualy reclaimed them.. i suggest reading it..

[edit on 15pmu52007 by DaleGribble]