Obama changes his mind about iraq

Originally posted by ShiftTrio
What if.. and I say what if, his first outlook was skewed, he said I am pulling out because noone else said it, now that he may really be president, he realizes , you can't.

That will probably be his excuse for not removing the troops from Iraq when he gets into his office. I'm calling it now, and we will see if I'm right in less than a year.

The man has no intention of removing the troops from Iraq. He is just saying he will do it because he realized 85% of Americans disapprove of the Iraq war, and he's pandering to get votes.

reply to post by LLoyd45


so true.. I firmyl believe it doesn't really matter who gets elected.. republican or democrat.... there all controlled by big companys and big business.. so seems to me like the different players in the same game.. no one is gonna be able to sweep in and change everything.. its been planned for too long to be that simple of a remedy

Originally posted by WhatTheory
Obama does not mean it.

How often does politicians mean what they say?

He is only pandering the people with the center/right mindset. In fact, over the past few weeks, he has been changing a lot of his positions and moving them more to the center/right in order to get votes.

He is only letting his true colors show now that he has managed the 'democratic' party nomination. In the past few weeks his been moving towards what he really stands for and what he will do once in office.

In reality, he is still a far left politician.

In reality he was never far left of anything ( not even by pathetic US standards of 'left') and has always been at at best a right winger pandering to whichever left wing voters in the USA that wishes to vote for a major candidate. The whole notion that Obama is a left wing politician is becomes nonsensical the moment you compare it to European standards.

Don't buy into his 'slight of hand' tricks. His leftist views are dangerous.

I didn't know he had leftist views but i am open to the idea that he might have one or two very well hidden one's..

Originally posted by WhatTheory
Yes, exactly!
During the entire democratic election process he adamantly said he would bring the troops home immediately.

He didn't really do that. His always promised 'change' with a sprinkling of more contradictory rhetoric about how the Iraq situation will be resolved 'quickly' once he gets some power.

This was his main talking point.

Nonsense.

Now that it's the general election, and he needs more than leftist votest to win, he all of a sudden has changed his mind?

True leftists wouldn't be caught dead voting for Obama and the few that sees the point of voting ( instead of staying home and sleeping in for example) will vote Nader. Only Americans could consider someone like obama a left wing candidate.

Is this what you are saying? I'm not buying it especially given all his other current moves to the center/right.

He didn't move anywhere and all his doing now is slowly moving away from all the left leaning rhetoric he needed to set him just that bit apart from the Clinton's.

I have no idea since I would never vote for Obama.

Well you can always vote for him instead of McCain ( you basically get to pick the rate at which you are going to be impoverished) but don't expect much else!

Stellar

Now that all the Libertarians, and Republicans (and neocons) have had a chance to post, now lets hear from a Liberal Democrat (oh my god, you mean there is one?). We should never have went into Iraq based on cartoons and lies from the Bushies...nevertheless we are there. Bush et.al. and the illegal invasion and occupation has given us this: a nation that once was secular, now is fundamentalist Muslim and in a civil war (sunies and #es [web site edits this thinking it's a cuss word, and it's not..another indication of our poor multi cultural education...). Even Bush Senior was apposed to this because it handed the nation over to the fundamentalists and Iran. But here we are, with Bush as Pres. and now that the neo-cons have their way and chaos reigns oil is off the market amidst rising demand and declining supply; oil is climbing higher (and we are running out; we should have listened to Jimmy Carter back in the 70's , but alas we didn’t so here we are).

If we pull out now in one months time, the Iranians will flood over the border and completely take Iraq over. There is massive national security issues regarding this. Iran has oil deals already made with China. Russia is also in the mix. If Iran runs over into Iraq, we are toast. The religious right, and conservative America bought the horse and buggy, and now we are F*#ked!.

Obama made the right decision. He will have to deal with this issue very carefully. I can't believe you people on ATS as intelligent as you are, jump to conclusions like this and ran sack him so quickly before thinking things out.

The reality is that this site is being overtaken by operatives against anything ithat is not pro-status quo...if you don't think so, just look at the massive nasty posts against Obama...I see them and just roll my eyes. Please! Those of us in the know, are way above this and smarter than to fall for politics as usual.

ATS used to be where I would go to find hard breaking news, now it's just mostly the establishment posting bogus threads against anyone who is pushing for change, as we clearly see now.

You may U2U me at any time. I am a Patriot. I am a lover of America (pre Cou de' tau JFK, and the sequal in 200) and true blue all the way. Be very careful about what you buy into. The military establishment and NWO is very well funded and backed, and they are posting things on here to lead you astray. Watch out!

Also, as we are now past peak oil, prices will continue to climb, and the economy will continue to fall...buy as much extra food and needed supplies for you and your family, and of course, don't vote GOP!

Sky.



[edit on 5-7-2008 by skyshow]

[edit on 5-7-2008 by skyshow]

Originally posted by WhatTheory
Sorry, that is not correct.
Leftist practices hold back the middle class from becoming upper class and leftist practices create the the poor class.

You just summed up what capitalism did and if you included the achievements of the democratic struggle, that prevented capitalism from reducing Americans to third world citizens, you would have had a very good summary indeed.

Obama is a leftist, an extreme leftist!

Obama would not achieve centrist status in the vast majority of European societies and it's only in America , where people are horrendously misinformed, that a right winger can be called a far leftist, by the far right press, with any success. No wonder Americans confused and thus mad as hell at African Americans, Arabs and anyone who dares say anything about their social system.

Name me one major issue where his view is not that of a leftist.

Since i have proved myself able to source my claims maybe you can start by telling us what makes him a leftist in your eyes? If your going to use American standards your just going to be wasting my time so feel free to look at what right/center/left actually means for the civilized world.

I mean he is for giving drivers licenses to illegals,

I don't know that he is but aren't both the Supposed right and left wing candidates for globalization and thus for allowing millions of South Americans and Mexicans to flood over the border? Why wouldn't any proper government at least want to issue these people with identification documents so they can at least be tracked for illegal activity? How do you protect your citizens if illegals work completely outside of the system? I don't understand how formalising the fact that millions of Mexicans are living in the US makes him a far leftist when Bush and the gang did absolutely NOTHING to fix the elder bush and Clinton era's near open border policies?

universal healthcare,

Well if you think that is a sign of far leftism you should go live in the third world where the free market truly reigns and people are allowed to die if they can't afford their own health care. Why on Earth should a government not rather spend the tax money it in's on such programs instead of on a globe spanning military machine? How is universal health care bad when the vast majority of American citizens WANTS it, have always been in favor of it and keep voting for such ideas? Why do suppose right wing candidates win in the US when the citizens are clearly then all crazed left wingers?

income redistribution,

Once again it's surprising that the moment any proposes that the rich be taxed more heavily than the middle classes and the poor everyone calls it 'class warfare' but when the rich barely pays taxes ( how much food can you really eat and how much gas can you use? and the poor gets taxed on EVERYTHING they do it's just 'capitalism' and 'free market' . Why doesn't anyone ever point out that we have been dealing with horrendously regressive income redistribution that takes almost everything from the poor and then hands it over to the rich? Did you think the rich were getting richer because they worked far harder or were THAT much smarter than those who were getting poorer? I suppose that wouldn't be surprising giving the racist overtones of most right wing believes about their fellow human beings.

higher taxes,

And while higher taxes and inflation eats up the meager earnings of the poor and middle classes the rich are not longer able to buy a second new car every year. Sorry for not bursting out in tears.

more government regulation and bigger government in general.

Governments in the US have almost always grown and the only difference seems to be that it may be growing far faster under republicans than democrats. I suspect the reason behind that is normally to better police the society against democratic forces but it may just be more pentagon contracts for their friends in industry. As for more government regulation the governments with the most regulation in economic affairs tends to be the most prosperous and that's why people will always want more regulation to stop those who have already grown wealthy, normally from government contracts, from employing that wealth to gain even more power

I could go on and on.

And i am sure the reasoning will be just as unreasonable.

Originally posted by WhatTheory
I don't believe he is pretty religious. He only attented the america bashing church in order to get elected in his home state.

The church in question was not bashing American but in fact some machinery in it that has been employing American tax money to oppress large parts of the world for decades. Since that is a fact it will only be seen as 'bashing' by those who deny reality or those who are getting rich by involving themselves in that oppression.

He is pro abortion which is against religious beliefs.

Depending on which parts of which bible you happen to believe in, yes....

The few times he as spoken publically about religion, it was obvious he did not know what he was talking about.

And that is the case for 99% of people who hold religious beliefs as people are self serving and will in the end believe what they are propagandized to while ever twisting such beliefs to their own wishes.

I will have to see if I can find a link.
But religion in general is not a political issue and that is what I was talking about in the previous post.

Feel free. The whole abortion issue is very interesting given how the republican party was enthusiastic abortionist until they realised that they could use it as tool to divide nominally democratic voters who also happen to have serious religious convictions. As with most issues religion is just a tool used by politicians who rarely practice what they preach or even employ a religious spirit ( as widely understood in the new testament) in decision making.

Stellar

Excuse me for my language... have you guys seriously thought you could just leave a country you have bombed to hell just like that... jesus... idiots.

reply to post by WhatTheory

That is just dumb. 70% of voters want to pull out of iraq now. He would not be pandering to the 30% that think we should stay, to just get their votes. He would be alienating some of the 70%, which would not be worth it. That 30% that think we should stay will not vote for Obama no matter what.

reply to post by DwaynetheSpecious

No, and anyone who thinks we should leave at this point is......

reply to post by DwaynetheSpecious

No, and anyone who thinks we should leave at this point is......

Originally posted by burdman30ott6
Uh... did you just compare a man completely altering the cornerstone of his entire campaign drastically with someone changing their college major?

Show me the proof that he "altered the cornerstone of his entire campaign".

You can not. Because he did not. The GOP is making that up and you're repeating it like a parrot.

[edit on 5-7-2008 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by skyshow
Now that all the Libertarians, and Republicans (and neocons) have had a chance to post, now lets hear from a Liberal Democrat (oh my god, you mean there is one?). We should never have went into Iraq based on cartoons and lies from the Bushies...nevertheless we are there. Bush et.al. and the illegal invasion and occupation has given us this: a nation that once was secular, now is fundamentalist Muslim and in a civil war (sunies and #es [web site edits this thinking it's a cuss word, and it's not..another indication of our poor multi cultural education...). Even Bush Senior was apposed to this because it handed the nation over to the fundamentalists and Iran. But here we are, with Bush as Pres. and now that the neo-cons have their way and chaos reigns oil is off the market amidst rising demand and declining supply; oil is climbing higher (and we are running out; we should have listened to Jimmy Carter back in the 70's , but alas we didn’t so here we are).

If we pull out now in one months time, the Iranians will flood over the border and completely take Iraq over. There is massive national security issues regarding this. Iran has oil deals already made with China. Russia is also in the mix. If Iran runs over into Iraq, we are toast. The religious right, and conservative America bought the horse and buggy, and now we are F*#ked!.

Obama made the right decision. He will have to deal with this issue very carefully. I can't believe you people on ATS as intelligent as you are, jump to conclusions like this and ran sack him so quickly before thinking things out.

The reality is that this site is being overtaken by operatives against anything ithat is not pro-status quo...if you don't think so, just look at the massive nasty posts against Obama...I see them and just roll my eyes. Please! Those of us in the know, are way above this and smarter than to fall for politics as usual.

ATS used to be where I would go to find hard breaking news, now it's just mostly the establishment posting bogus threads against anyone who is pushing for change, as we clearly see now.

You may U2U me at any time. I am a Patriot. I am a lover of America (pre Cou de' tau JFK, and the sequal in 200) and true blue all the way. Be very careful about what you buy into. The military establishment and NWO is very well funded and backed, and they are posting things on here to lead you astray. Watch out!

Also, as we are now past peak oil, prices will continue to climb, and the economy will continue to fall...buy as much extra food and needed supplies for you and your family, and of course, don't vote GOP!

Sky.



[edit on 5-7-2008 by skyshow]

[edit on 5-7-2008 by skyshow]

I agree with the part, there is no way we can pull out now and that Iran would flood and take over iraq. Obama is learning this now and when he goes over there, visits iraq and talks to the Generals he will know we need to stay there and he will not be able to pull out. THe thing that worries me is the fact he has che guevara flags hanging in his campain office www.littlegreenfootballs.com... and he refuses to wear the american flag on his chest or hold his right hand over his heart when the national anthem plays

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by burdman30ott6
Uh... did you just compare a man completely altering the cornerstone of his entire campaign drastically with someone changing their college major?

Show me the proof that he "altered the cornerstone of his entire campaign".

You can not. Because he did not. The GOP is making that up and you're repeating it like a parrot.

[edit on 5-7-2008 by Benevolent Heretic]

I agree he didnt alter the cornerstone of his entire campaign, I am republican and I can see that. And of course the conservatives are going to go after him for altering his original stance on iraq. He orginally got most of his support because of his stance on Iraq. I think when he found out he would not be able to immediatly start withdrawing troops he started to distance himself from the whole Iraq withdraw stance and started to talk more about domestic policy. It is actually a brilliant move. Everone knows that a major weakness he has is foreign policy. So he can make these outlandish statements about meeting with dictators, pulling out of iraq, etc.. and then back track. After all he says himself froiegn poilicy isnt his strong point. He is just like any politician. And for those who think he is going to bring all this change when he comes to office is in lala land. Of course there is going to be change for the good, but there would also be change for the better if a monkey was to become president. As long as Bush is gone, the change will be positive.

WOW an attack thread on Obama and Jamie isn't the author... he's falling down on the job.

Thats just republican spin... in the primary debates he said the same thing... that 16 months is a goal but he would have to keep options open.

What that means is that the man thinks and can adapt to changing situitions and change his mind.... unlike the current occupant of the white house.

If you want an inflexible idiot... write in bush minor for a 3rd term.

Originally posted by GorehoundLarry
Obama is pretty religious actually so he's not hardcore liberal in that department. In other cases however, he really is a die hard lib.

Nothing wrong with that though.

I am not sure about that, i would danger a guess he has used religion like he uses everything else to further his agenda.

BTW, his handlers, and we know who they are, are doing a lousy job.

Any one with a LICK of sense could have seen through Obama months ago, If they wanted to.

[edit on 093131p://bSaturday2008 by Stormdancer777]

reply to post by grover


I wouldn't call it an attack thread,

It would have been nice if the people who blindly voted for Obama would have done their homework.

Originally posted by skyshow

The reality is that this site is being overtaken by operatives against anything ithat is not pro-status quo...if you don't think so, just look at the massive nasty posts against Obama...I see them and just roll my eyes. Please! Those of us in the know, are way above this and smarter than to fall for politics as usual.

You could not be more wrong.

The posts about Obama (at least mine) are to point out to all the naive Obama supporters that Obama IS status quo. The "hope" and "change" crap is nothing but a cynical marketing strategy to lure the 90% of the people who are disgusted with the status quo.

Is there anything Obama has DONE (not said) that shows he's going to change anything?

Of course there isn't. FISA, Iraq, campaign finance, etc., you name it, he says one thing but does nothing to be consistent with what he says.

I think Obama is a classic liberal, somewhat to the right of Hillary Clinton (a lot of people may disagree with me on that one). That is certainly not "hard core" left nor does he approach socialism.

Obama, I think, believes in withdrawal as soon as possible but is now dealing with the realities of the situation, which make such a precipitous action unfeasible. Clinton always said she would withdraw as quickly as was realistic; she did not promise the "16 months" that Obama did.

I don't think Obama's being machiavellian or "flip-flopping ," he's doing what any sane and intelligent person would do, which is adapting to the new information he is receiving. I would sincerely hope he would be that flexible as POTUS.

Here is what I think (like anyone really cares). I have no proof of a conspiracy here but I have some serious questions about this Obama guy and why he is the Democratic candidate.

First, let me say that I do not harbor any prejudices against any race or color. I would just as readily vote for a black or Hispanic for president as I would a white guy. But! Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed:

1. Beginning in the 1990's Hollywood began portraying Blacks as President in several popular movies.
2. Many older movies were re-made using blacks in the lead role previously portrayed as whites.
3. Hollywood (the entertainment business) is historically far left wing in politcal matters and are predominately Democrats.
4. Hollywood is a huge contributor to the Democratic party.
5. Suddenly, an unknown, underachieving first term senator pops up on the Democratic ticket - who just happens to be black. This guy overtakes the "favorite" candidate and gets the Democratic nod as POTUS candidate (assumed, but assured).
The man has NO record in the Senate. He has voted "present" in almost every meaningful vote. He has no historical record of achievement. He was not born in Harlem, the deep south, the ghetto, or, for that matter, in the US. He did not pull himself up by his wits from nothing to become a self-made man. No-one has an inkling about what the man really thinks or believes. His greatest achievement politically is to have beaten out Hillary (by dubious party means at that).

I think, the man was a clean slate. someone the far left could grab, mold, merchandise, market and present as the ideal candidate for "change".
What change? I have not an inkling! Obama is raw material being made up as the process demands.
I smell a conspiracy here.

Obama is somebody's puppet. I want to know who is behind this piece of merchandise we are being sold.

There are plenty of Democrats in office that would have made much better choices. I would have voted for Richardson even though I don't agree with everything he has said, and I am a Republican. I am left now with McCain, whom I admire for his wartime courage and tennacity, and his record of breaking with the mainstream Repubs, but I still disagree with him on some important issues. But Obama? He has no record to dislike, He has no history to prove he is worthy...he is a lump of clay being molded on the fly.

Hopup

Originally posted by WhatTheory
Sorry, that is not correct.

Oh really? So I guess The Sandinista party of Nicaragua was a right wing pro capitalist party supported by the people? So what would that make the death squads trained by US CIA and military assets ?

Please, the US political Lexicon does not apply throughout the world.

By the way, you can thank leftist policies and politics for the 8 hour work day, child labour laws, occupational safety, fair wage laws, and a host of other essential services in North America. Or are you one of those people who believe that Capitalist Robber Barons just gave up their bottom line to better serve the people?

Leftist practices hold back the middle class from becoming upper class and leftist practices create the the poor class.

Leftist practices attempt RAISE the standard of living for the lower classes of society. That is the purpose of land and resource redistribution, fare trade, universal health care, etc.

Where the hell is the substance to your posts? You spout a lot of rhetoric and offer nothing to back it up.

Name me one major issue where his view is not that of a leftist.

How about YOU name me the issues you feel make him an extreme leftist, after all, I asked first and you have yet to answer a single question of mine.

I mean he is for giving drivers licenses to illegals,

Illegals which Big business uses to lower wage standards and general living standards?

more government regulation and bigger government in general.

I love conservatives for this line. You guys want less government? Where do you want less government and regulation? In what sectors?

In human services, environmental protections, and on big business. Contrary to that, most conservatives seem to demand bigger governmental power and forces in business and trade protections, police and military repression, and corporate bail out services.

[edit on 5-7-2008 by InSpiteOf]

Originally posted by InSpiteOf
By the way, you can thank leftist policies and politics for the 8 hour work day

Hmm....I wonder why I work 12 hours a day sometimes.

child labour laws, occupational safety, fair wage laws, and a host of other essential services in North America.

Give me a break! The Dem's of old are not the Dem's of today by any stretch of the imagination. There is no comparison. The leaders of the dem's today are so extreme to the left, it's not even funny. They are nothing but socialists, marxists and communists. I am not saying all democrats are this way, but the leaders and majority of them are.

Leftist practices attempt RAISE the standard of living for the lower classes of society. That is the purpose of land and resource redistribution, fare trade, universal health care, etc.

Sorry, but again incorrect.
Leftist practices make the lower class then act like you cannot survive without the government. Leftist want to keep the people dependent on the government because it ensures they remain in power.

Where the hell is the substance to your posts? You spout a lot of rhetoric and offer nothing to back it up.

Huh? What? I guess you don't read or cannot comprehend because everything is backed-up that is not obvious. All I see is leftist propaganda like you are spewing.

How about YOU name me the issues you feel make him an extreme leftist, after all, I asked first and you have yet to answer a single question of mine.

How did you ask first when you are responding to my post.
Again, if you could comprehend, you would have realized I already listed some of the issues. Actually, you already quoted the list I wrote, so do you even know what you are doing? Please focus. I will list them AGAIN. We have:

A) Drivers licences for illegals
B) More government regulation
C) Bigger government in general like more social programs
D) Socialized Medicine
E) Higher taxes
F) Income Redistribution
G) Defense policy plans
H) Halt to manned space missions
I) Against domestic drilling
J) Provide terrorists with the rights of a U.S. citizen

Damn, is that enough for you or do you need more.

[edit on 5-7-2008 by WhatTheory]