Obama hits McCain's military credentials via Proxy

Originally posted by COOL HAND
You don't think that this statement is insulting?
“He has been a voice on the Senate Armed Services Committee. And he has traveled all over the world. But he hasn't held executive responsibility. "

No. That's not an insult. That's a statement of fact.

A bit like me saying, "My husband has been a software engineer for many years and has been an excellent team leader on several successful projects, but he has never held a managerial position."

"Clark said that McCain lacked the executive experience necessary to be president, calling him “untested and untried."

Again, I don't think it's an insult. A bit like saying, "Obama lacks foreign policy experience. In that arena, he is untested and untried".

Are those statements disrespectful of my husband and Obama?

Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic
Many of them have said that McCain being a POW made him uniquely qualified to be president. When I ask "How, exactly?", there is usually a long silence.

Well, now you have an answer (even if you may not agree) from someone who thinks is it is a qualification.

Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic
Please show me exactly where I said that. Exactly, please, as I do not recall saying that.
/quote]

If I misread what you wrote, I apologize. I am operating on just two hours of sleep.

I Love it when people ask for proof, but never seem to get around to addressing it after it's given.. They prefer to ignore or minimize any evidence that contradicts their misguided notions and beliefs.

This is typically behavior for the Barack Obama supporters though, so it's to be expected.

Originally posted by COOL HAND
This is just unbelievable, if someone else already posted this please point me to the article.

Article

Why doesn't Obama have the guts to make these kinds of accusations himself? Why does he have to get one of his paid hacks to take the flak?

I thought the best part was this:
“I don’t think getting in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to become president.”

This coming from the guy who was shot four times and thought he could be President?

Gen Clark, it is time for you to retire from the public.

Does anyone know of any attempts by Obama to distance himself from these comments?

excuse me? but what is a qualification? how about a silver star, bronze star, 3 purple hearts, and a tour of duty as a grunt on the ground...oh yeah...that was john kerry, and you f'in patriots smeared him all over the news for months, you hypocritical b-st-rds. and as far as wesley clark?...george bushs military career doesn't even qualify him to hold clarks jockstrap.

Are those statements disrespectful of my husband and Obama?

No, those kinds of statements are only insulting and disrespectful when you are talking about a right-winger

As they keep reminding us, they're the only real Americans, and thus the only people who would take such statements as an insult

Having read more, Clark's comments were hardly a scathing attack on McCain or his military record.

Simply statements of opinion, by a man who does have a long record of executive military leadership, and is trying to market himself to us (and no doubt to Obama) as an Obama running mate.

He is trying to make the point to us (and again to Obama) that he is well-positioned to act as a counter to McCain's (admirable) military record in the fall election.

It's just normal politics, nothing terribly exciting to be found here.

The Swiftboating comment doesn't fit, as he's not lying about McCain's military record or accusing McCain of lying about it.

Originally posted by SaviorComplex
I know what he said. I was paraphrasing. I didn't mean it to be taken as a direct quote.

I think we get into muddy waters, though, when we don't look at the direct quote. These two statements, while only different in one word, are VERY different in meaning and intention.

“I don’t think getting in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to become president.”

“I don’t think JUST getting in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to become president.”

.............

And, although this thread is NOT about Obama and that's why I'm not addressing your questions about him, Lloyd, this is just for you:

Originally posted by SaviorComplex
Well, now you have an answer (even if you may not agree) from someone who thinks is it is a qualification.

We may be splitting hairs, here... I am arguing against the claims I have heard that McCain's POW experience makes him uniquely qualified. I agree that that experience gives McCain an additional insight, and I would not argue that it is an added qualification (one of many required) for president.

If I misread what you wrote, I apologize. I am operating on just two hours of sleep.

No sweat... happens to the very best...

Edit to fix quote tags

[edit on 30-6-2008 by Open_Minded Skeptic]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by COOL HAND
You don't think that this statement is insulting?
“He has been a voice on the Senate Armed Services Committee. And he has traveled all over the world. But he hasn't held executive responsibility. "

No. That's not an insult. That's a statement of fact.

No it isn't. McCain had command of an aircraft squadron. How much more executive responsibility does a person need before it is acknowledged?

What is Obama's executive experience?

A bit like me saying, "My husband has been a software engineer for many years and has been an excellent team leader on several successful projects, but he has never held a managerial position."

No it isn't.

Maybe the reason why is that your husband is not qualified, or has never showed a desire to be promoted?

Again, I don't think it's an insult. A bit like saying, "Obama lacks foreign policy experience. In that arena, he is untested and untried".

But in this case Obama does lack foregin policy experience and is untested and untried. McCain has served in the Senate for years, and has plenty of experience with foregin policy.

Originally posted by jimmyx
excuse me? but what is a qualification? how about a silver star, bronze star, 3 purple hearts, and a tour of duty as a grunt on the ground...oh yeah...that was john kerry, and you f'in patriots smeared him all over the news for months, you hypocritical b-st-rds. and as far as wesley clark?...george bushs military career doesn't even qualify him to hold clarks jockstrap.

Weren't those the same awards he returned to the government? Doesn't that mean they are no longer valid?

I disagree with many posters,

As a (Nam) veteran I understand how many others disparage McCain for getting
special treatment as a POW son of an Admiral.

I do NOT understand how any non-veteran like Obama could possibly understand what it is like to send others to fight and die.

Not that every President must be a veteran, but just look at our dear dubya, whose biggest risk during military service was during his off duty visits to *houses in Mexico.
Our dear dubya treats the US military like toy soldiers:
Use them to play games and throw them away when they break.

He has no qualms about sending troops to fight and die for nothing.

Obama has no respect for the US Military, nor any understanding of what it's like to have to obey orders and do as you are told.
Even to die when ordered to do so.

No way I will ever vote for a pampered elitist.

No! I did not vote for dubya!
He is missing six months and ten days of his
military service.
Over 30 days is desertion.

I must admit, I did greatly appreciate how the draft-dodger President Clinton expunged his guilt by fully funding the VA Health Care System and opened it up to ALL veterans.
Also how he limited USA participation in removing a murderous dictator to Air Force flights.
No ground troops in any undeclared war sounds soooo good to any Nam veteran.

Argument?











[edit on 30-6-2008 by himself]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
And, although this thread is NOT about Obama and that's why I'm not addressing your questions about him, Lloyd, this is just for you:

If the thread is not about Obama, then the title is a bit misleading don't you think? Obama hits McCain's military credentials via Proxy

It's a funny video, but as I said previously, he only does things like salute the flag, pledge the allegiance, or wear an American flag pin after someone has twisted his arm by publicizing the fact that he doesn't.

As for his specious associations, people can attempt to minimize them all they like, but it makes them no less true.

Here's a video for you.. A speech given by his and Jeremiah Wright's good buddy Momar Gadaffi..




[edit on 6/30/08 by LLoyd45]

Cool Hand, Don't mistake disagreement for disrespect. It's a common mistake people make. If we disagree, that must mean he disrespects me.

Clearly, you and Clark disagree about McCain's service. That doesn't mean that Clark's intention is to be disrespectful toward McCain. Most likely, he is sharing his opinion to remind people that while McCain's service is commendable, it doesn't mean he would make a better president than Obama. And I agree with him.

Originally posted by COOL HAND
What is Obama's executive experience?

No one is ASSUMING that Obama is more qualified because of something in his past. They're assuming McCain is more qualified because of his service. Clark is just saying that HE thinks that assumption is wrong. It's not really about Obama except that he's the other guy.

As regards the rest, we're just going to have to disagree.

Originally posted by LLoyd45
If the thread is not about Obama, then the title is a bit misleading don't you think?

Absolutely! We AGREE! It is misleading and should be changed. There is NO indication that Obama has anything to do with this. It was an assumption on the OP's part.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Absolutely! We AGREE!

It is misleading and should be changed. There is NO indication that Obama has anything to do with this. It was an assumption on the OP's part.

It should be changed, but to try and say Obama had nothing to do with it, is the equivalent of saying Santa Claus has nothing to do with Christmas. It is his campaign after all.

Obama has responded to the Clark/McCain comments today:

In his speech Monday, Obama did not directly address Clark's comments, but after calling attention to McCain's service, he said "no one should ever devalue that service, especially for the sake of a political campaign, and that goes for supporters of both sides."

"We must always express our profound gratitude for the service of our men and women in uniform. Period," he said.

So I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that he habitually disrespects the military

Obama made his comments, ironically, in a speech about patriotism today.

Obama himself has made a point of praising McCain's military service, by the way.
He did it again today.

It is his campaign after all.

Well, it's a guy trying to get Obama to give him the VP job, so, sorta...

[edit on 6/30/08 by xmotex]

Originally posted by LLoyd45
It should be changed, but to try and say Obama had nothing to do with it, is the equivalent of saying Santa Claus has nothing to do with Christmas.

It is his campaign after all.

Obama REJECTS Clark's Comments

Barack Obama formally rejected Gen. Wesley Clark's recent comments Monday that questioned whether the John McCain's military experience qualified him to be commander in chief.

"As he's said many times before, Senator Obama honors and respects Senator McCain's service, and of course he rejects yesterday's statement by General Clark," Obama spokesman Bill Burton said in a statement.

I told you guys. Clark said this SAME THING in March when he was supporting Hillary.

[edit on 30-6-2008 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by himself
I disagree with many posters,

As a (Nam) veteran I understand how many others disparage McCain for getting
special treatment as a POW son of an Admiral.

Oh, please, I was in army (not USA) for 15 (7 as active and rest in reserve) years and been in 2 different wars, one of them was CIVIL (where concentration camps and mass graves are the REAL thing, among all other things). I lost 11 members of my family in it.

Was POW for 1 year and literally saved by International Red Cross from Geneva. When I came out I was 78 lb.

If I ever despised anyone (besides my captors) in my life, I did those who got special treatments there, they were traitors by ALL means, plain and simple.

I'm not saying McCain is, but if there is even remote chance he had a special treatment there his chance to be elected will be reduced to zero

It's simply another attempt at damage control. When the statement causes an unfavorable reaction amongsts the voters, he comes up with a flowery patriotism speech. When accused of going to a racist church, he came up with a flowery speech on racial unity.. Sheesh..

It's an old courtroom tactic used by lawyers. Though a piece of evidence may not be admissable, they'll intentionally drop it out there for all in the jury to hear, then withdraw the statement when reproached by the Judge.. Barack is a lawyer, isn't he?

reply to post by SaviorComplex


Whoa! slow down there pilgrim, no need to sling insults. I merely stated that there are accounts that differ from your personal experience as a POW right alongside McCain back in 'Nam (you were there weren't you?). My statement is one that cannot be disputed. If you think you can dispute the fact that there are different accounts of his time there, you might as well dispute the fact that Obama is even running for president.

It seems you're just looking for an opportunity to become combative, either that, or you simply don't read the posts you're responding to.

Now, being a POW is tough, I won't dispute that, and I won't personally dispute the claims that he was tortured. However, being a POW comes with responsibility. Now, how did he live up to his responsibility to his country, and earn the nickname "Songbird McCain" at the same time?

Oh, and I know how to use the 'ex' tags too...

Some excerpts from Valentine’s indictment.

“War is one thing, collaborating with the enemy is another; it is a legitimate campaign issue that strikes at the heart of McCain’s character. . .or lack thereof. In occupied countries like Iraq, or France in World War II, collaboration to that extent spells an automatic death sentence.. . .The question is: What kind of collaborator was John McCain, the admitted war criminal who will hate the Vietnamese for the rest of his life?

“Put it another way: how psychologically twisted is McCain? And what actually happened to him in his POW camp that twisted him? Was it abuse, as he claims, or was it the fact that he collaborated and has to cover up? Covering-up can take a lot of energy. The truth is lurking there in his subconscious, waiting to explode. ”

“McCain had a unique POW experience. Initially, he was taken to the infamous Hanoi Hilton prison camp, where he was interrogated. By McCain’s own account, after three or four days he cracked. He promised his Vietnamese captors, “I’ll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital ...

“His Vietnamese captors soon realized their POW, John Sidney McCain III, came from a well-bred line in the American military elite. . .The Vietnamese realized, this poor stooge has propaganda value. The admiral’s boy was used to special treatment, and his captors knew that. They were working him.”

“. . .two weeks into his stay at the Vietnamese hospital, the Hanoi press began quoting him. It was not ‘name rank and serial number, or kill me’. as specified by the military code of conduct. McCain divulged specific military information: he gave the name of the aircraft carrier on which he was based, the number of U.S. pilots that had been lost, the number of aircraft in his flight formation, as well as information about the location of rescue ships.”

“…McCain was held for five and half years. The first two weeks’ behavior might have been pragmatism, but McCain soon became North Vietnam’s go-to collaborator…..McCain cooperated with the North Vietnamese for a period of three years. His situation isn’t as innocuous as that of the French barber who cuts the hair of the German occupier. McCain was repaying his captors for their kindness and mercy.

“This is the lesson of McCain’s experience as a POW: a true politician, a hollow man, his only allegiance is to power. The Vietnamese, like McCain’s campaign contributors today, protected and promoted him, and, in return, he danced to their tune. . .”

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Absolutely! We AGREE!

It is misleading and should be changed. There is NO indication that Obama has anything to do with this. It was an assumption on the OP's part.

There is also no indication that he did NOT have anything to do with this.

If someone could conclussively prove otherwise, than it can be argued that the title should change.