what has become of the disclosure project?

DISCLAIMER: The following is my personal opinion and in no way influences the strategies related to managing AboveTopSecret.com, nor does it have any effect the priorities topics which are completely up to our members.

Originally posted by davidbiedny
Anyway, thanks for stepping in, Bill. It's always encouraging to know that there are others who see through the nonsense.

Dave...

The "nonsense" in UFOlogy comes in all shapes and flavors, as well as from all sides of the debate and all channels of media. It's unfortunate that Duncan has allowed a passionate opinion to influence the level of heat in his posts, but we've also seen that from every UFO-centric personality who's been on ATS, including you.

I first became involved in these topics back in 1979 when I joined the ranks of MUFON while in college. About a year later, I personally witnessed the destruction of authenticated government documents that clearly disproved a popular UFO event with an alternate explanation no one ever thought of. Ever since, I've had a core distrust of those in this particular field. Those who are passionate about proving the core beliefs of UFOlogy have a terrible habit of promoting questionable "evidence" as long as it supports their beliefs, and rejecting good evidence if it contradicts with their beliefs. And likewise, those who seek to "debunk" the "UFO crowd" all too often focus on personality attacks.


The brief interactions in this thread is a poignant and sad reminder of how lost UFOlogy is right now.

Duncan, I don't know where you think you are posting, but let me remind you...

This is AboveTopSecret.com, we don't play the little "take a picture of a moth and call it an alien so we can get lots more people to pay $800.00 to sit around the camp fire and be tricked into thinking satellites, aircraft and bugs are ALIEN SHIPS being called in" game here.

No sir, we do our best to EXPOSE the con men and charlatans here.

Further to your question regarding Swerdlow, that interview is exactly why I regained control over who gets interviewed on ATS MIX, and who does not. If you took the time to look at the thread about the Swerdlow interview you would see that our Staff and membership took him to task WITHIN THE BOUNDS OF THE TAC. That's how it works here mate.

Are we capable of getting duped? You bet. But at least we are honest enough to admit it and eat our crow unlike most in this wacky "field".

Springer...

[edit on 7-4-2008 by Springer]

Still very telling to me that a guy who insists on everyone sending their stimulus package to him, is ardently defended by a guy who...makes his living from this.

Pattern anyone? This is what UFO research is to some people: a cash cow. Of course they'll lay the insistence that there's "no money in UFOs". Well, I'm one who's been in this field for now just over 2 decades, and I can tell ya, there's money if you want it. (Never mind that some have attempted to bribe me into swinging analysis results over the years).

I'd encourage anyone to read Bessent's parting comments about his blatantly faked UFO footage DVD sales if you honestly believe there's no money.

People deserve to be paid for their time and effort like everyone else, but not at the expense of the subject's integrity. This to me is a prime example. Nexus knows *nothing* about David or myself, yet feels ok in marginalizing people who call his nonsense. (I only stated what he's publicly said here on these boards multiple times.)

No worries. I learned my lesson quite awhile ago not to argue with such people at any length, as it's ultimately a waste of time.

Happy 4th all,
J

The conspiracy community seems to be broken. Those who believe anything, and those that can take a step back and look at it realistically.

I began with and interest in rockets and space, little boy things; eventually, living in a small village on the outskirts of Falkirk, near Bonnybridge might I add, in Scotland, I seen some pretty strange things in the sky in the early/mid 90's. This fired my interest in UFOlogy and such things.

I came across Mr.Greer several years ago, and I'll admit it I was fascinated with the Disclosure project; but eventually there was a shift and I started doubting Mr.Greer's credibility, searching the internet for others with the same doubts. Thats how I came across ATS in the first place, and I'm on here daily; I may not post all the time, but I'm here, reading and watching.

Mr.Greer (I won't call him doctor, that's just another way of boosting his 'I'm Important' ego) wants to be seen as a 'leader', and 'crusader'. Look at the way he has worked his body - musclebound, again, wanting to be seen as a man of power, a leader. Also, the interview on the Paracast was good; it asked questions that had to be asked even if they did 'badmouth' him towards the end.

The reason they could not butt in with questions is because Mr.Greer talks about something and cleverly manages to roll into another topic seamlessly, and he knows how to talk, he's not a stupid man, far from it; in fact he comes across across as extremely intelligent, even if he is a terrible actor (I watched some X-Con footage where he actually tried to put on the waterworks for a moment - not fooling anybody I'm afraid). Another thing must be brought to light about Mr.Greer; he constantly refers to high ranking people, or people of importance - that he of course has met in person (how many times have you heard him say that?) and still, has little to show for it. Some might say revealing his sources would endanger his life and that maybe so, but if you look at the history of B.S this guy has been putting out, it's easy to come to the conclusion that he's in it for the coin; or the 'con' might I add.

Which brings me back to my first sentence....

The conspiracy community is broken beyond repair; there are those who believe and those who don't; both are as bad as each other. But in between are those that can see through both, the wide-eyed believers, and the die-hard debunkers. That is what ATS is all about. No doubt the publisher from Nexus Magazine will be bitching about ATS in a magazine store near you soon; with a price tag and a chip on his shoulder.

Such a shame.


[edit on 4-7-2008 by Smugallo]

Originally posted by Springer
Duncan, I don't know where you think you are posting, but let me remind you...

This is AboveTopSecret.com, we don't play the little "take a picture of a moth and call it an alien so we can get lots more people to pay $800.00 to sit around the camp fire and be tricked into thinking satellites, aircraft and bugs are ALIEN SHIPS being called in" game here.

No sir, we do our best to EXPOSE the con men and charlatans here.

Further to your question regarding Swerdlow, that interview is exactly why I regained control over who gets interviewed on ATS MIX, and who does not. If you took the time to look at the thread about the Swerdlow interview you would see that our Staff and membership took him to task WITHIN THE BOUNDS OF THE TAC. That's how it works here mate.

Are we capable of getting duped? You bet. But at least we are honest enough to admit it and eat our crow unlike most in this wacky "field".

Springer...

[edit on 7-4-2008 by Springer]

Well thanks for that Springer, your post helps me understand things around here a little better. I must confess though, maybe I missed the fine print, as I had not realised the emphasis on exposing con men and charlatans at ATS. Fair enough I guess - if that is what you want to do. It would explain why moderators will sometimes take 'sides' in a debate - and certainly explains the prevailing 'shoot first ask questions later' attitude on the more 'far out' threads. I won't complain about biased moderators any more.

On the Greer thing, I guess I was just a bit shocked to see someone who has done things that I respect (ie Disclosure Project and the National Press Club) getting trashed with such a school-yard mentality on this thread and others. I understand people's gripes about his workshops in the countryside, but I have yet to be convinced that this means he is any worse than the thousands of other experts running various courses and workshops on all things alternative or metaphysical on any given weekend across the USA.

On the Swerdlow thing - I was a speaker at the Global Science Congress, back in the mid-90s, where Swerdlow announced himself, told of his prison time, his being forced to kill hundreds of boys, his mind control etc etc. Heaps of other speakers and the audience, were all told this. It was an integral part of his 'story'. Silly me didn't realise that his current 'story' doesn't include any mention of any of this part of his past. So I mentioned my astonishment that ATS would be having him of all people on a show, and got rightly slapped for being out of line (on another thread that is).

ATS is certainly an interesting place Springer. I have enjoyed my last few weeks exploring it, and apologise for necessitating your intervention here.

peace

Duncan

Fair enough.

Mr.Greer tried with the Disclosure Project and the NPC thing; you have to give him credit for that.

Pity all his credibility went spiraling downwards after his quasi-religious, and somewhat egotistical personality took over. You publish a magazine, and are willing to leave ATS purely because it goes against the fact that you believe Mr.Greer and his ramblings as the truth. Please show me evidence of his honesty, because there is a huge deficit there. Perhaps you'll just stomp off all angry. The argument is not productive from both sides. It's like trying to tell a creationist carbon dating proves dinosaurs existed millions of years ago.

Let me guess, you're not going to say it's that. It's because ATS is bias; of course it is from a wide-eyed believers point of view. I have to ask one question, what exactly are you skeptical of?

Be honest now...

[edit on 4-7-2008 by Smugallo]

The "publisher" continues to ignore my points.

Duncan, I'm asking you this directly:

- Do you deny that you made derogatory statements about me, Gene & Jeremy _before_ I responded on this thread?

- Do you think that Dr. Edgar Mitchell was being less than honest in his statements about Greer's credibility?

- What are your thoughts regarding THIS document?

- Have you looked at CSETI's tax statements? Do you feel that they're all in order?

- What are your thoughts regarding the fact that Greer - and CSETI - have not released any photos or videos of the many they've claimed to have shot?

- As a publisher, what are your thoughts regarding the fact that people who attend the Greer outings are made to sign NDAs, restricting them from sharing their photos and video with anyone, without express permission from CSETI? Do you think this is a reasonable stance?

- Do you believe in the veracity of the story that Greer tells about the dead "alien baby" being left on the church steps in South America, and then being sent to Europe, and his having, in his possession, photos of said baby?

dB

reply to post by davidbiedny


sorry for butting in ...

i have not listened to the paracast interview yet but i would like to ask you :

did you present any of the above questions to Mr. Greer ?

if not ...why ? exactly

I did indeed present some of these questions to Greer, and he danced around them.

Listen to the show, and then ask my anything you like.

dB

Mr.Greer is right up there with the following frauds in my mind:

Bob O'Dean :
Decent sounding old man, his 'past life' meeting with his current wife is highly questionable and adds to the discredit of his views and 'whistleblowing' on the UFO scene.

John Lear :
Need I say anything. If you don't agree with him, he will call you an idiot on this board discreetly (well, he did). Far out fantasies with no factual basis.

Dan Burisch :
Well, if you watch a lot of Stargate SG1 or some other TV show where all the aliens talk english, then you will probably love this guy, and more. Claims so outlandish it puts clifford stone to shame.

Sorry Springer & Co. I love the site, and you guys think more critically than I could ever imagine, I value your opinions...but...

Clifford Stone :
Claims many things. 'Do you want something believable, or do you want the truth.' Basically a catalyst for lies, straight out. Team ATS went down got some good documents that are soon to be released in some form or another about a paper trail of evidence. Crakeur, the most hard nosed skeptic of all, believes his unsubstantiated story with no evidence, purely because of Mr Stone's sincerity. No offense to Clifford or his intentions, his data is most probably invaluable, but his story is completely disposable; is this some kind of ying-yang effect here? His story is crap, but his FOIA documents are good?

reply to post by davidbiedny


ok i just listened to the interview,

listening to it just reconfirms for me that Mr. Greer is in this for the money and recognition. i find it hard to believe that he would be this involved with future energy technology's and his only motive would be to 'save the planet'

as far as the interview...i found it to be the same as any other interviews i have heard with Greer. nothing new was discussed or discovered and i think many opportunity's were missed in the questioning. Greer said he would be releasing photograph's on cseti in the fall but you did not question him more on this. i would have asked him more details about the photo's and if they would be free to view or are they going to be put on a dvd and put up for sale ? i also would have nailed him down to a followup date in the late fall to let him know people are watching what is being promised.

a question i would have asked is:

do you think open contact with aliens will happen in your lifetime and with nine years gone by already.....what is the future time projection of the D.P being successful in their mission ?

i would have also asked him what he plan's on doing to get the alien pictures released from the company that possess them.

i think if Greer danced around questions/answers as you say, it was nobody's fault but your's because you let him.



[edit on 4-7-2008 by easynow]

Easynow,

All it takes to create a podcast is time, some gear and www.libsyn.com.

I invite you to create a podcast, bring Greer onto your show and ask him all the questions you like.

dB

reply to post by davidbiedny


i will keep that in mind but with me not having anykind of media exposure that would be similar to your's , i highly doubt he would accept.

reply to post by nexusmagazine


You know, Duncan, I'd hate to see you leave ATS just because of a Greer thread. I was in a particularly vicious multi-thread Greer-flame-war last year, and at times I felt like just saying, to hell with ATS and giving up too.

But then I realized, there really are lots of great people and lots of great content on ATS. There are lots of other opportunities for you to contribute, besides in Greer threads.

Originally posted by davidbiedny
He'll release CSETI photos and videos later this year - which he's been saying for 14 years, with nothing to show. NOTHING.

NOTHING - except for - THESE!

www.ufocongressstore.com...



LOOK!

CSETI footage, which IS publicly available!

Hey, wait a minute, you and jritzmann are the resident imaging experts, right?

And you say you are NOT debunkers, but legit investigators, right?

Well, why don't you guys make yourselves useful, and analyze Greer's CSETI footage?

Wait, I know why. Greer had his chance to prove himself to ATS, but he cancelled his Mix interview. Greer doesn't want or need help from ATS, so why should ATS go out of its way for him? Why should ATS spend $1000 to check out Shastafest? Why should ATS spend a measly $50 to check out his CSETI DVDs?

Greer charges to go on his camping trips - which representatives from ATS ARE welcome to attend, BTW - so, he MUST be a con man, right? How DARE he charge $$$ for a camping trip!! right?

I understand that ATS has little incentive to investigate Greer. I understand very well. Especially after the ATS Mix diss.

But is Ignorance being Denied here? HELL NO. To sit back and ignore the CSETI DVDs that I found - what kind of Ignorant is that???



[edit on 4-7-2008 by MrdDstrbr]

Originally posted by Smugallo

The conspiracy community is broken beyond repair; there are those who believe and those who don't; both are as bad as each other. But in between are those that can see through both, the wide-eyed believers, and the die-hard debunkers. That is what ATS is all about. No doubt the publisher from Nexus Magazine will be bitching about ATS in a magazine store near you soon; with a price tag and a chip on his shoulder.

Such a shame.

[edit on 4-7-2008 by Smugallo]

It is conclusions like this that are the cause of the problems you point out. I don't use my magazine as a forum to bitch about anybody. If you care to read any of my posts, you will see that I admire ANYONE who gets off their butt and tries to make a difference - which is what ATS achieves and then some.

My mistaken assumption until now was that ATS provided a neutrally moderated forum for discussion on topics.

I had not realised the emphasis on exposing charlatans and frauds, and I had not realised that if you are in the 'opposing' camp to a moderator, that they can and do, use their moderator powers to rein you in, while allowing their own 'side' to give free kicks.

What I still do not understand is this: - a petty street hustler Stewart Swerdlow, who has publicy stated that he was in the Montauk experiments; that he did jail time; was mind-controlled by the CIA, that he killed and raped hundreds of boys; that he is soooo psychically powerful that the illuminati NEED his powers at satanic shape-shifting ceremonies - are put on a pedestal at ATS, given free radio time, and free promotion of overseas trips etc. He charges exorbitant amounts of money for psychic readings, and I have a bunch of complaints from people around the world who feel ripped off by him. YET NOBODY AT ATS FEELS THIS IS A PROBLEM?

But, a respected medical doctor, who gets together hundreds of high-level whistleblowers; organises the most viewed National Press Club Conference in history (till that point); and then conducts workshops about his beliefs - is publicly slandered and denigrated by thread visitors, moderators, super moderators, and even higher. I mean, his worst crime is that he does workshops that some ATS people disagree with.

Duncan

Originally posted by Smugallo
Fair enough.

Mr.Greer tried with the Disclosure Project and the NPC thing; you have to give him credit for that.

Pity all his credibility went spiraling downwards after his quasi-religious, and somewhat egotistical personality took over. You publish a magazine, and are willing to leave ATS purely because it goes against the fact that you believe Mr.Greer and his ramblings as the truth. Please show me evidence of his honesty, because there is a huge deficit there. Perhaps you'll just stomp off all angry. The argument is not productive from both sides. It's like trying to tell a creationist carbon dating proves dinosaurs existed millions of years ago.

Let me guess, you're not going to say it's that. It's because ATS is bias; of course it is from a wide-eyed believers point of view. I have to ask one question, what exactly are you skeptical of?

Be honest now...

[edit on 4-7-2008 by Smugallo]

If I leave ATS it will be because of time not distaste.

I've been active in investigating all these fields since the mid-1970s. I have met and interacted with most all the 'main players' in conspiracy, UFO, Fortean, alt health and alt science fields - in their capacities as writers, researchers or presenters at conferences. I certainly have my own list of people who don't get invited to do articles or talks - but this list is based on my own personal experiences with said people.

I remain unconvinced that Greer is guilty of anything more than running workshops that many ATS people disagree with; and having a personality that many ATS members don't like. If that is all that it takes to form a lynch mob at ATS - well, you are the people missing the big picture in my opinion.

I mean you gotta see it from my perspective here - Swerdlow gets free advertising on ATS to peddle his expensive workshops which are way MORE bizarre than anything you guys have thrown at Greer - but Greer, who HAS done something worthy of respect - gets bucketed with all the enthusiasm and grace of a schoolyard lynch mob for failing to live up to your unrealistically high expectations of him.

Go figure!

Duncan

Duncan

reply to post by nexusmagazine


I have to say I agree with Duncan here.

EVERY positive lead that I generate for Greer just gets ignored.

I did a little chat room interview with Nora Maccoby and her partner Todd Hathaway, they vouched for Greer - that got ignored.

James Gilliland vouched for Greer in his ATS Mix interview, because of the question *I* posed, and he even claims to have footage of Greer and CSETI vectoring in "countless" ships - THAT got ignored.

I even find some CSETI DVDs which allegedly show ships landing - LANDING!!! - and THAT gets ignored!!!

Tell me, how am I not supposed to suspect a conspiracy against Greer, when I've been generating positive leads for him for like a year, and everything, EVERYTHING I do just gets ignored or dismissed?

[edit on 4-7-2008 by MrdDstrbr]

Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
reply to post by nexusmagazine

 

I have to say I agree with Duncan here.

EVERY positive lead that I generate for Greer just gets ignored.

I did a little chat room interview with Nora Maccoby and her partner Todd Hathaway, they vouched for Greer - that got ignored.

James Gilliland vouched for Greer in his ATS Mix interview, because of the question *I* posed, and he even claims to have footage of Greer and CSETI vectoring in "countless" ships - THAT got ignored.

I even find some CSETI DVDs which allegedly show ships landing - LANDING!!! - and THAT gets ignored!!!

Tell me, how am I not supposed to suspect a conspiracy against Greer, when I've been generating positive leads for him for like a year, and everything, EVERYTHING I do just gets ignored or dismissed?

[edit on 4-7-2008 by MrdDstrbr]

Granted, but the main thing upsetting people so passionately about Greer - and frankly I am amazed at the venom directed at him - is that most people had him on some sort of private 'pedestal' for what he did at the Press Club. Once he failed to live up these unreasonably high expectations - people, acting in typical pack mentality, want to turn on him and punish him for his letting them down.

Greer is just another one of a thousand guys running workshops across America. At least his attendees get some fresh country air, and get to smell the roses ...

If Greer was truly corrupt and only after money, he would have taken the offer that comes around periodically - ie promote fear of ETs and UFOs - and get "rewarded". There is plenty of money to be made if you want to go down that road but Greer didn't take it. That alone made him more enemies that most would imagine.

Duncan

reply to post by nexusmagazine


Nexus...

I am just a girl on ATS with a side interest in UFOs...I am not in the "UFO scene" nor do I have any ties to ATS other then loving the threads here....I am most assuredly smarter then the average person, but certainly not a member of MENSA.

I have no dog in this fight. Any person with average common sense if given the facts, can deduce that Steven Greer is strictly in this deal for the cashola. Sure, at first, he might not have been, but I doubt that.

I was all on his bandwagon 6 months ago when I found the whole "Disclosure Project" and the video of him at the Press Club along with the testimony given there etc, and went to his site, bought the DVD to watch these people giving their story and giving their evidence because I am interested in the topic.

I don't regret buying it, because if I recall it was only like $20 or $40. Very reasonable....but that was BEFORE I knew enough to research Greer himself, before I know what I know now.

As a thinking, logical person, reading all the facts of Greer, all the videos, all the brouhaha it's quite obvious to anyone, even believers in UFOs, that he's only in it for the buck. Either that or he's gone off the deep end mentally...but if that were the case he'd just be raving and not charging.

I don't need ATS to tell me he's a charlatan, it's quite apparent.

You go on and on about "other lecturers" etc...

There's a BIG difference between people that are truly interested and out on the lecture circuit and just covering their expenses....

And people like Greer, who I believe IMO, is out to totally FLEECE people and who is relying on this BULL to totally supplement his complete income....I sincerely believe he is purposely and with much advance planning, preying on gullible people to make his living. You can come to no other conclusion if you have even a shred of common sense.

I came to this conclusion before I ever got to ATS.

I don't understand why you are defending him so zealously. Are you a friend of his in real life? Related to him or something? By marriage? Old school buddies? What? You seem so logical, until I read this thread.

Do you really truly believe the garbage that's coming out of his web site and that continues to come out of his very mouth?

Doesn't compute.