Is Yashua(Jesus) God ?????

Originally posted by amitheone

Isaiah 44 - 6.....Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."

1 Corinthians 10:4 - ....that rock was Christ.

Who is the Lord Almighty? Jesus. Who is the Rock? Jesus Christ. Who is the first and the last? Jesus.

jesus is also called the cornerstone of the congregation. he is a rock when it comes to christians because he is the foundation of the congregation.

its a different rock from the one described by isaiah

Revelation 1- 17 ....."Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. ......I was dead, ......

........

..... Who is the First and the Last? Who is the Lord Almighty? What is His name?

can god die? can the universe exist with god dead? if god died, who would resurrect him if god is the ones with the keys to hades?

John 17:11 - I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one.

So, what is the name of God the Father? What is the name He gave His Son?

Who is praying here? What is HIS name according to this verse?

the name can be found more than six thousand times in the bible. Yahweh (or jehovah). doesnt the our father prayer say "hallowed be thy name" ?

btw, just because jesus is the one praying, doesnt mean its his name he's talking about.

john 17:[6] I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

17:[26] And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

What is the name of God the Father?

It is non other than the name of “JESUS CHRIST” in which He gave to the Son. Surprised? Confused? Not sure? Read again.

”I and the Father are one. Apart from me there is no God. No, there is no other Rock. I know not one. I am the Lord Almighty. I am the First and the Last. I AM”

its like watching a child play connect the dots by zigzaging randomly across the page.

C) God the Father calls His Son “God”

Hebrews 1: 8 - .....

.......

You said:

that arguement doesnt prove they are the same, after all if "God" is just a title (which it is) the scripture would not be in conflict

.....
.....

If this is so, then care to explain to me all of my previous explanation that the name Jesus is the Creator? The Everlasting Father? The Rock? The First and the Last? The Lord Almighty? The Savior? Apart from Him there is no God?

i did. your argument is arranged like a tower. it seems like everything you are trying to prove now is based on assumptions in earlier parts of the argument. those assumptions just arent true. you forcing a square peg in a round hole.

my rebuttal on heb 1:8 stands, calling jesus "god" doesnt conflict with the fact they are 2 separate people.

If you say this is only a mere title it becomes vague and you are not comprehending the scriptures well. You are confused between the word “title” and the very attributes and nature of God, who is – Almighty, Omnipotent, Eternal, Great, Savior, and Creator. These describe His very being and nature and not “title”. If this is just a mere title, then anyone can just attach “God” to his name without having any real powers at all.

so, in psalms when men are called gods. they too are "Almighty, Omnipotent, Eternal, Great, Savior, and Creator" ?

i think pharaoh also was called god at one point.

Its like describing a sportsman – He is fast, strong, and agile. You don’t say fast is his title or strong is his title or agile is his title. This is not talking about titles but talks about his power and ability. If this is just a mere title, then anyone can have the title fast, strong, and agile, without even having these abilities.

but the sportsman is called an "athlete". now athlete isnt his name, its a title. that doesnt mean all athletes have the same abilities, i doubt a golf champion can run as fast as the greatest sprinter.

If you say these are just mere titles then, it becomes vague and skewed because what you are attempting to do here is to claim “Jesus is *not* God” and when every time Jesus say, “I am God, the Lord Almighty, there is no other, there is no other Rock I know. I AM” in the scriptures, you are quick to say, “oh, its just a title that he claims, he is not god. He is just flesh. ho hum”.

Blatant ignorance of the scriptures and your whole theology crumbles. You are just trying to squeeze a camel in the eye of a needle.

and this is where i cant go any further, this is where your whole arguement turns into an attack on me.

the fact is you are the one ignorant. you are trying to squeeze the camel because you simply cant read. scripture after scripture blatantly points to jesus and GOD as being separate people, distinct.

the context is AGAINST you. you have a handful of scriptures that can be twisted and distorted to fit your beliefs, but in the end jesus stills says god is greater than him, the bible still says jesus was created, jesus still says that he doesnt do his own will but that of his fathers.

if god is jesus and jesus is god then scriptures like mark 13:32 become unexplainable.

the ransom sacrifice because bogged down with indiscrepances

if jesus and god are the same literal being, then why pray to ones self? why when tempted to worship someone else you reply the bible says you should worship god? why send yourself and then say you didnt send your self. how would he even be able to die? who would resurrect him? how is "GOD" and equal sacrifice for a perfect human?

it calls the entire bible into question. entire passages conflict because you want to believe that jesus is god.

what if jesus was a copy of god in human form but still god? this would explain the praying and god's voice being heard in the presence of jesus, but it raises other questions. if god and jesus were one and god was around while jesus was dead, did jesus really die? was the ransom really payed? why would god resurrect jesus? would there be a need?

you believe that jesus is god because that's what you want to believe, not because thats what the bible says.

now i want to address something else

You’ve got a serious problem there friend! I just have no idea what kind of Bible you are carrying or where you get sources from. Watchtower, perhaps by any chance?

here is an online bible i use. i also have a king james hard copy and greek interlinear along with a spanish bible.
quod.lib.umich.edu...

i also have a notebook of personal notes of points ive researched over time.

Your answers are all so vague and without full context and understanding. It looks like John is the only verse that you are so much stressing and focusing on while clearly ignoring and neglecting the relevant and parallel verses of the OT and the NT *combined.* Let the scriptures test the scriptures. Let the scriptures interpret the scriptures by itself and not some group who interpret the scriptures according to what fits their own homemade theology. Might as well make your own Bible, just exactly like what the JW did, they made the NWT, the Bible which has the erroneous doctrine of “the word was a god”.

if you let the scriptures test themselves, you would see that jesus being the same person as GOD contradicts the bible. in all the scriptures you quoted you were very nice the provide bold marks on the parts you felt emphasized your point, but you neglected the rest of the scripture, you misdefined words (like nature for example) and some scriptures you simply ignored all together.

Are you really sure you are not Jehovah’s Witnesses? I swear this type of Bible understanding comes from JW. Its so typical – questioning the worship of Christ, the deity of Christ, etc. I can list all of them – 101 to be exact.

no im not, if i could be though i would be. of all the religions ive ever come in contact with, jw's by far are the closest when it comes to following the bible. unfortunately i dont qualify. nor do i think im "saved"

I once debated with JW members. I exposed everything about the institution. They were outright mad, but did not even say they were a member and yet defending the teachings of JW. Very contradictory.

sounds like quite a feat, unfortunately i dont believe you. your defense of the deity of jesus was mostly based on connections that dont exist.

What Jesus said was true then. Do not believe every spirit, but test the spirit.

we agree on something

i dont mind debating you, but please, lets discuss one point at a time. im currently in hospital with a chest cold and i find it difficult to concentrate for long periods of time. discussing one point at a time would be easier if you dont mind

I worked with a young man who on a Monday morning, asked me what I had done on Easter (the previous day)
I told him I did not celebrate Easter.
He attacked me for being a Jehovah's Witness.
His father was a Pentecostal preacher who specialized in refuting the JW religion.
We eventually got around to discussing the trinity.
He thought he was a trinitarian but I pointed out that his idea of what the trinity was, was not orthodox, and not how most people understand it.
He was shocked when I told him that normal (and orthodox) understanding of the trinity is that it is made up of three separate and distinct personalities who were co-eternal, meaning one did not exist without the others.
He could not even comprehend it.
He thought I had to be lying and he would have to ask his father about it.
So, there seems to be a natural antagonism between the Oneness inclined Pentecostals and the JW's.
They apparently are incompatible philosophies and bring out a feeling of outrage in the antagonistic Oneness supporters.
I think one is just as much a cult as the other.
Most people who thoroughly examine the beliefs of the Oneness adherents would not be able to classify it as Christianity.
My best friend for about fifteen years, told me about a church he was going to and he explained some of their beliefs.
I was shocked to find out there were people who existed with this theology.
My friend could not answer my questions so I went to this church and talked to the preacher.
One of the questions for him was what happened to that God that was spoken of, in the Old Testament, Like, does He no longer exist?
"No," was the answer, "and God's name is now Jesus."
"But the great thing about it is Jesus taught us how we can become God, ourselves."
I have to go along with Mariam on this point, and quote Jesus when he says "no one has seen the Father."
I think that Jesus would have said that sinful man can not stand the sight of the Holy God, but God does send His servants to represent Him and can be given all the authority of God to do great works and to give man a better understanding of God.

reply to post by GJIML


well heres a way to blieve that the messiah wawss God and seperate from him

Gods spirit and soul are split certain sections givin to the spirit bodies of the holy spirit and jesus

so they are all seperate beings but the same God

All that really matters is that Yeshua is "the one." All authority has been given to him.

It's not wordy doctrine and it's not complicated.

So wheather he is God incarnate or the Spirit of God only dwells in him is a mute point, this late in the game.

It's all his.

Game over.

it does matter

john 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

reply to post by miriam0566


Well, u said that we should worship the father....."I and the Father are ONE, who has seen me has seen the Father ! ! ! !..... Jesus is the father's spirit..They're one ! !...

Case Claused

---------------------------------
"Fear not those who kill you, and after can do no more; fear Him who after death is able to cast both body and soul into hell"

Originally posted by GJIML
reply to post by miriam0566

 

Well, u said that we should worship the father....."I and the Father are ONE, who has seen me has seen the Father ! ! ! !..... Jesus is the father's spirit..They're one ! !...

Case Claused

---------------------------------
"Fear not those who kill you, and after can do no more; fear Him who after death is able to cast both body and soul into hell"

i think im going to set to set up an auto response everytime someone uses john 10, think i explained it like 3 times in this thread alone.

reply to post by miriam0566


No it doesn't matter. All authority has been given to Christ. All of it. He's the "one." People have a choice - accept him for who he is or reject him outright. It's as simple as that.

Bible verses can have multiple meanings and if you limit yourself to only one meaning per verse - you take away from knowledge you are capable of receiving.

Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct

No it doesn't matter. All authority has been given to Christ. All of it. .....

exactly, who gave him that authority? if jesus is god and never had a beginning, and is equal to god, then who gave him the authority? why would he need it to be given to him?

its such a stupid argument. trinity doesnt fit.

Bible verses can have multiple meanings and if you limit yourself to only one meaning per verse - you take away from knowledge you are capable of receiving.

john 10:30 is explained by jesus himself in the later verses. he himself shows that he is in unity with his father! if jesus explains this and corrects the jews wrongful thinking, how can you then say the jews were also right?

i agree, sometime verses have double meanings, but not all the time.

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct

All that really matters is that Yeshua is "the one."

Yes, the "one" man who can completely own the title of Messiah.

So wheather he is God incarnate or the Spirit of God only dwells in him is a mute point, this late in the game.

I believe it is a pretty serious point to consider.
If you are mentally challenged, God probably has an exemption.
For the rest of us, God has made us priests, through Christ, so we need to get it right.


[edit on 7-7-2008 by jmdewey60]

Okay you guys. In some way, shape or form we really are all on the same side. I'm going to stand by my answer, that it doesn't matter. The reason I believe it doesn't matter is because when Yeshua returns, the very same God Spirit that left with him is returning with him and that's all that matters. It don't get any better than that! The very same packaged deal, that put Thomas on his knees will in turn put us on ours.

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct


what does it mean to be on the same side? people tend to worship god any which way they like. the bible becomes this ala cart menu special, ill take some of this and alittle of that, no wait i dont like that... leave that part out.

to worship god in spirit and in truth involves understanding basic bible doctrine.

the unfortunate part is alot of doctrine has been mucked up by churchs who change things in order to stay relevant.

i believe a catholic bishop (many many years ago) once said that if pagans you wish to convert are worshiping a tree and they refuse to stop, then declare the tree holy.

does that sound like worshipping god in truth? or does that sound like he is just filling the church?

the trinity, duality (jesus and god are same person), hellfire, are all pagan beliefs added later. all of a sudden around the 3rd and 4th century writings statred popping up with these doctrines. they are pagan doctrines that can be traced all the way back to babylon.

how do you think god would feel about these things? wasn't isreal punished for incorporating baal worship and other pagan rituals? why would it be any different for christians today?

jesus departs, here is an interesting little bit of information....

acts 1:[8] But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.[9] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.[10] And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;[11] Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

so these 2 angels telling them that he would return in like manner. we would say today "the same way".

so what manner did he leave? notice that there is no fanfare, also notice that only his disciples see this. the rest of the world is unaware of his ascension.

so its not as simple as simply waiting for jesus to return, his disciples will be ready before

1 thes 5:[2] For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. [3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.[4] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

what does it mean to be ready?

2 cor 7:[1] Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

cleansing false worship is part of that.

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct


Unfortunately, I read Miriam's comment, first, before reading yours, so, I am influenced by what she said, so mine will no be very original.
We have more to do than to sit around and wait for Jesus.
We need, for one example, to be able to, to some degree, articulate some version of the Gospel.
There is something called the Great Commission.
Unto all the world...
Jesus stated that the main purpose for his existence was to preach the Gospel.
Jesus could have been an ordinary High Priest and went along with the system of the Temple Cult.
He re-defined the position of High Priest and overturned the tables of the money changers and took his place on the Portico of Solomon and taught the people.
Jesus declared himself to be the Son of God and the Son of Man.
To anyone who did not already have a counter agenda, would have understood what that meant.


[edit on 8-7-2008 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by miriam0566


The only thing I meant by being on the same side is that we all seem to believe in a higher power.

You said "to worship god in spirit and truth involves understanding basic bible doctrine"

Basic Bible doctrine isn't about nitpicking the words to death. Basic Bible doctrine is an understanding that this wonderful God Spirit is a real and tangible presense.

The whole Bible is about people that were filled with this presence and the very same presence is still around today.

You dismiss writings from the 3rd & 4th century, as if they are all inspired by pagans, but how do you know for certain that some of them were not inspired, by the Holy Spirit?

Regarding how the Lord will return to the earth: Yes, only a handful of people witnessed him leaving but he's very clear on his manner of return. Just at the appearance, of the sign of his coming, he says all the inhabitants of the earth will mourn. It's not a small event - it will be huge.....

You said "what does it mean to be ready?"

You can ask ten people this question and you will get ten different answers, but in my opinion to start preparations, for being ready for the Lord in any way would be to repent & get baptized. And I'm talking water baptism. You wash the outside and he'll make the inside clean, keep his commands and that will take you down the narrow path.

This goes for Miriam....

Why do i believe that Jesus Must be God?!?!?!....

1st : Who died on that cross for u? (Jesus or God)

2nd: Who will judge u? (Jesus or God)

3rd: To whom will u Bow? (Jesus or God)

4th: Whose the bread of life ? (Jesus or God)

& way to Go.......

Now let me see.....Would God really love u, if he Gave A Man(Jesus), and let him die for u???? Or will he really love u If He(God) died for u???

Do u realize the pattern here...If Jesus was not God....Than God is nthn !!!!
Now don't tell me that God, gave all of his powers to Jesus....If he did...Then he's pleased with that....But the same fact that Jesus is God states everything....

Ex: He's the one that will judge u, he's the alpha and the omega, he's the one that was is and will always be....He's everything....For an instance, if u're taking the bible word by word...Then let us see this statement..."Anyone who speaks a word against the Father will be forgiven, and anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks a word against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.....mmmmmm..i guess that the holy spirit is much important than God...So, God=Father Son Holy spirit

He was known as the Father on the days of Moses and all the Aged-Prophets, and as the Son on the days of Jesus(himself), and as the Holy Spirit after Jesus died and then resurrected, so we are now living in the age of the holy spirit........ Is it too Hard to see the Obvious(truth)....

---------------------------------
"Fear not those who kill you, and after can do no more; fear Him who after death is able to cast both body and soul into hell"

Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct

Basic Bible doctrine isn't about nitpicking the words to death. Basic Bible doctrine is an understanding that this wonderful God Spirit is a real and tangible presense.

its much more than that, it is a basic understanding of the nature of god and his purpose. saying god works in mysterious ways is not good enough. his purpose is shown clearly in his word the bible.

saying jesus is the same person as his father is blasphemy, even jesus acknowledged his father's higher position numerous times. the bible clearly points to this simple fact.

You dismiss writings from the 3rd & 4th century, as if they are all inspired by pagans, but how do you know for certain that some of them were not inspired, by the Holy Spirit?

1 cor 13:[8] Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

he referring to gifts of the holy spirit. stuff like talking in tongues and healing. notice he also says they will vanish. this means at some point christians will stop being able to do miracles.

[9] For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

the bible at the time of this writing was incomplete. there are also scriptures referencing a waiting for a revelation of jesus

[10] But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

so with the revelation of jesus given to john, the bible was made complete. with that, all miracles and gifts of the holy spirit were no longer needed since the will of god is perfectly reveal through scripture.

the apostles also warned...

acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

ever read jesus' parable about the wheat field?

after the apostles, an apostasy settled in. if you read writings from later centuries, there tone changes. details start to disagree with the bible. so yes, i do feel they are illinspired

Regarding how the Lord will return to the earth: Yes, only a handful of people witnessed him leaving but he's very clear on his manner of return. Just at the appearance, of the sign of his coming, he says all the inhabitants of the earth will mourn. It's not a small event - it will be huge.....

that is refering to revelation and signs in the skies, and the son of man coming in the clouds. i assure you that is a separate event.

jesus presence occurs before.

You said "what does it mean to be ready?"

You can ask ten people this question and you will get ten different answers, but in my opinion to start preparations, for being ready for the Lord in any way would be to repent & get baptized. And I'm talking water baptism. You wash the outside and he'll make the inside clean, keep his commands and that will take you down the narrow path.

you are right on alot of things. but to get baptized is to dedicate yourself, doesnt it make sense to get to know who you are dedicating yourself to?

john 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

To me Miriam it seems simple, but it took awhile for me to figure out. Jesus taught God, not about himself. Jesus said, over and over, and over, that he is the son of God. In fact, there is 129 verses in the New Test. where Jesus refers to himself as the son of God. There are 8 verses in the New Test. that a reference is made to him possibly being God. Jesus never said in these word "I am God". So I would take Jesus for his word. Jesus is the son of God.

Then there is the weird thoughts, like, if Jesus was God and he could have stopped the crusifiction does that mean God was suicidal??

Somethings will never make sense.

Originally posted by GJIML
1st : Who died on that cross for u? (Jesus or God)

jesus.

john 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

to answer you question after, god is love because he sent his son. imagine offering your son for the world?

plus it couldnt be god on the cross. a ransom was needed for the sin of a perfect man. putting a humanized god on the cross would be a gross imbalance. it would have been like paying for a bottle of milk with america's runaway military budget. plus god cannot die.

2nd: Who will judge u? (Jesus or God)

jesus

he is appointed to judge

john 5:
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

but jesus uses the standards set out by his father

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

so in tht respect you can say god judges too because he is the one who sets the standard

3rd: To whom will u Bow? (Jesus or God)

both, bowing is a show of respect and a recognition of authority.

rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

4th: Whose the bread of life ? (Jesus or God)

jesus.

john 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

he is the bread of life because he bought us with his own blood.

i fail to see how this proves jesus is god almighty.

Do u realize the pattern here...If Jesus was not God....Than God is nthn !!!!
Now don't tell me that God, gave all of his powers to Jesus....If he did...Then he's pleased with that....But the same fact that Jesus is God states everything....

that makes no sense at all.

Ex: He's the one that will judge u, he's the alpha and the omega, he's the one that was is and will always be....He's everything....For an instance, if u're taking the bible word by word...Then let us see this statement..."Anyone who speaks a word against the Father will be forgiven, and anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks a word against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.....mmmmmm..i guess that the holy spirit is much important than God...So, God=Father Son Holy spirit

again... that makes no sense, if anything it proves that they are three separate things.

He was known as the Father on the days of Moses and all the Aged-Prophets, and as the Son on the days of Jesus(himself), and as the Holy Spirit after Jesus died and then resurrected, so we are now living in the age of the holy spirit........ Is it too Hard to see the Obvious(truth)....

truth cannot be seen by those blinded. you give me ramblings in bold print, i give you scripture. so who has the truth?

Originally posted by Zaimless
To me Miriam it seems simple, but it took awhile for me to figure out. Jesus taught God, not about himself. Jesus said, over and over, and over, that he is the son of God. In fact, there is 129 verses in the New Test. where Jesus refers to himself as the son of God. There are 8 verses in the New Test. that a reference is made to him possibly being God. Jesus never said in these word "I am God". So I would take Jesus for his word. Jesus is the son of God.

Then there is the weird thoughts, like, if Jesus was God and he could have stopped the crusifiction does that mean God was suicidal??

Somethings will never make sense.

im alittle confused, are you saying jesus was god? or was a separate being from god?