Evolutionary dynamics of male homosexuality.

reply to post by schrodingers dog


Hello there!

I'd like to say that I am gay as well and have been for as long as I remember. Although I don't like to put labels on things and say "that's something men do" or the contrary etc., when I was a child I used to play with dolls and games that generally girls enjoy. I remember having fun playing with my brother's playmobil's, but I also had my own collection of pony dolls which I would brush all day. I remember my parents trying to convince me to pick another toy when we went to a toy shop, but I would go straight to the section with the dolls and pick a pony doll I didn't have (whenever they made me a present, however, it was never a pony doll. I couldn't figure then that they were trying to make me play with games boys usually play). Anyway, at some point my mother convinced me to give the collection of pony dolls I had to a distant cousin of mine, which I did, although I was a bit reluctant. I would still, though, fancy brushing the hair of relative persons and pretend that I was actually styling their hair.

At school I used to have more female friends and that trend persisted till my graduation. I was often called 'gay' from other kids when we were at my father's village for vacation. Actually, I first heard that word there (I am Greek) and I still remember the first time I was called gay. I was sitting on the veranda and a "friend" of mine was walking with his cousin by the road and he stopped to greet me and then he left. When he and his cousin had distanced a bit, my 'friend' turned to his cousin and said in a sarcastic tone, "gay!" and they both laughed. I understood that what he had said wasn't very positive, but I didn't know what he was meaning. Sadly, I found out the next days. Most of the kids started calling me sis, gay etc. with the exception of a few more mature boys and the girls who were supporting me. Needless to say from that time I started becoming shy and self-conscious as those kids (almost teenagers. I was 3-4 years younger than most of the kids) made me feel I was something laughable and in a way inferior. Fortunately, at school I was seldom called gay with the exception of a few bullies at high school who ridiculed me a couple of times in front of other classmates of mine, but stopped doing so as they noticed no reaction from my part.

I believe that I first started liking boys during third grade ( I had never been called gay at that point of time) and it became definitive in seventh grade when I went to secondary school. Funny, but now that I think of it, my parents would often ask me if I liked any girl at school and that question was always making me feel uncomfortable and I would just say a girl at random...

Anyway, the point is that I didn't choose to be gay. I just am, and frankly, although being straight seems alien to me (yes, it does, no matter how strange may sound), I would prefer to be straight, because I'd love to have a family. I know, however, that I couldn't ever do that, neither to myself, nor to my wife or my kids; especially the latter.

With that said, I am seeing my homosexuality as a situation from which I can gain valuable experience. I value the fact that my understanding for both sexes is equal, or at least approaches that, and that in my life there is an expression of both the male and the female quality. I don't feel bad for what I am, even though I have been made to feel bad for it and the effects from it have not completely erased. For that reason, I'd really like if people weren't so judgmental of others and absolute especially when speaking without any experience. If we could show love to each other our world would be so much better...

Thanks for reading!

With love,
Alexandros

wom

[edit on 6-22-2008 by forsakenwayfarer]

reply to post by Alexander1111


Alex,
Thanks for sharing your story. Especially impressive considering the prejudice and lack of understanding expressed in some of the posts preceding yours.
If I may ask, was the research included in my OP in any way helpful, that is to say did it add further to what you already knew?

Originally posted by schrodingers dog
June 18th 2008, a new paper has been published which attempts to reconcile the development of the "homosexual" gene when it seems to exist in opposition of Darwinian evolution:

There is a difference between a homosexual that is born that way and someone that learns that behavior in life. Most that learn it do it for the sex only and usually love and make love with women but still like having sex with men also.

One important thing about people is we cannot be fit into a box so please don't be so narrow minded to try.

Is the OP positing that homosexuality is nature's way of curbing population?

Does that mean gays are like the lemmings who initiate jumping off cliffs?

Originally posted by reject
Is the OP positing that homosexuality is nature's way of curbing population?

Not at all. One of the ways that creationists and other christian fundamentalists try to attack both evolution and homosexuality in the same breath is as follows: If evolution existed and homosexuality were genetic, why is this gene or any other natural predisposition to homosexuality still be present in light that it is not needed for procreation.
The OP is aimed at showing how scientists are a) aware of this paradox and b) the latest empirical research aiming to reconcile it.

[edit on 22-6-2008 by schrodingers dog]

Does this mean that evolution and culture is creating these people as another species? How could we possibly know the statistics of this throughout history if it isn't displayed throughout the gene pool? In a society that is apparently less agressive in nature due to forced behaviors, might this then also be contributing to this?

According to one claim: many asian men are not as agressive as other races, so, asian women are more attracted to these. This still seems natural for some species to seek out new gene pools.

A childs DNA might then be strongly affected by the mothers psyche?and what about diet?


I had watched a documentary on children who are transgendered and they spoke of hormone treatments. The one boy they showed seemed almost obcessed with his being in the wrong body. So, I think there are different levels, rather than just one example covering everything.

I wonder if there will ever come a day when a female who claims to be in the wrong body and a male in the wrong body will be able to swap bodies like the freaky friday fiction. Many may say that god made a cruel mistake, as if these souls had made a different choice previously.

If this proved to be successful and they were content that way, then it would also suggest something else as well. What about hypnotic regression and past lives?

[edit on 22-6-2008 by aleon1018]

reply to post by Alexander1111


Alexander, a star for you, for a very well-written post!!

though I am firmly homosexual, I learned how to 'play' the game, since society here in the US of A, this fully hypocritical society where 'Everyone is Equal Under the Law' unless you don't happen to conform with the ideals of those that write the laws.....

Nevertheless, I grew up, had a successful career as an airline pilot....and I'm not the only one!! There are gay Police Officers, EMTs, scientists, doctors.......surprise!!

People seem to be, gradually, realizing the truth of humanity.....but, it is a slow process, with a lot of 'knuckle-draggers' who continue to impede the way to understanding.....

I've always been puzzled at the passion that sexual orientation seems to evoke in people on all sides of the discussion.

Does it really matter why someone is gay? If we live in a free society that champions the concept that we are free to live our lives as we see fit, provided it does not prevent others from exercising that same right, then if I should choose to have a romantic or sexual relationship with someone of the same gender, then why should anyone else care? If I want to have a romantic relationship with a clothes hamper, then it seems to me that if it is done in private, who should care?

Perhaps some are born gay, perhaps some learn it (or perhaps they have just learned to shake of the illusion they were straight!), or some just realize that worrying about sexual orientation is no big deal and start relating to each person as an individual.

Let me see, we are running out of oil, we have ecological chaos, there are insane terrorists running around trying to find nuclear weapons, there is mass starvation, holocausts in Africa, massive problems after monsoons in Burma and earthquakes in China... the list goes on and on. I just think there are too many other things that need our immediate and focussed attention rather than obsessing about why some people love certain flavors of other people.


[edit on 22-6-2008 by metamagic]

reply to post by ObamaMomma


You choise it because its in your genes. You know what you are from a very early stage in life. The gene just clicks in and wala you are gay. There is nothing that you can do to stop it. Thats the way life programed you to be no fault of your own. Therefore, Its life and so let it be that way. You can say all kinds of magic words or wave your voodoo dolls all you want and it will not move. People should just except it as part of life thats all. Afterall, all the studies so far have shown that thiat is the way this world works.

reply to post by Brothers


Sweet hybrid-driving Christ.

Waht?

reply to post by ObamaMomma


Obama, quite possibly that is the most un-educated, bigoted, thoroughly misunderstood comment ever uttered on ATS!!!

It's as if you haven't bothered to read any of the preceeding pages, in order to "Deny Ignorance"....

What a tragedy.....

Originally posted by forsakenwayfarer

By definition, homosexuality is indeed a disorder. Men were not designed with the intention to have sex with other men.

Actually no, by definition they aren't.
Men were not designed at all.
And you have no actual proof to the contrary.
Until then, arguing about it is pointless.

Originally posted by WhatTheory
This was scientifically proven by the American Psychiatric Association until it removed homosexuality from its diagnostic list of mental disorders in 1973.4.

Gay being a mental disorder was never proven by the APA at all.
In fact, it was a failure to actually prove that it was an actual mental disorder that caused the APA to listen to gay's and change the classification.

Originally posted by ObamaMomma
Homosexuality is a choice not a gene or a disease.
a simple choice that someone makes to be gay.

How sad people thinking this way still exist.

Originally posted by I_AM_that_I_AM
Gay being a mental disorder was never proven by the APA at all.
In fact, it was a failure to actually prove that it was an actual mental disorder that caused the APA to listen to gay's and change the classification.

That is just not true. Why are you trying to be disingenuous?
It was proven through scientific means that is was a mental disorder and the only reason they removed it was because of political pressure. This is fact and has been well documented. I posted a few links, did you read them. Just google and you will find much more.

Homosexuality is a choice? No way.

It comes with too much baggage. It's a difficult life. No one would volunteer for it.

I know that I did not choose to be straight, so why would I think that gay people choose to be gay? Do you really believe that a person is going to wake up one morning and say to him or herself,

"Hey I want to be disowned by my family, kicked out of my church, ostracized by all my friends, fired from my job, rediculed by society in general, and stripped of basic civil rights! Yeah, sign me up that sounds like fun!"

Originally posted by I_AM_that_I_AM

Originally posted by forsakenwayfarer

By definition, homosexuality is indeed a disorder. Men were not designed with the intention to have sex with other men.

Actually no, by definition they aren't.
Men were not designed at all.
And you have no actual proof to the contrary.
Until then, arguing about it is pointless.

You're so witty.
I see what you did there.

You're sweet like cake.



[edit on 6-22-2008 by forsakenwayfarer]

reply to post by Nyteskye


I wanted to thank Nyteskye for sharing his story. I can certainly relate. I knew I was gay at the age of 5. The simple fact of the matter is I knew what pleasure was and I knew what felt good - even if I didn't connect that feeling with sexuality. However, I vividly recall wrestling with my next door neighbor ( a boy) and becoming aroused, again, not that there was any kind of connotation with sexuality. I also recall playing with his sister (who was my best friend at the time) and I never became aroused (wrestling or not.)

I don't think one can be raised to be gay - I was raised in a strict Church of Christ home - I wasn't even supposed to dance much less have sexual feelings for boys. Yet, I did and rarely could I control those impulses growing up. I also danced but that's besides the point. I remember praying to God night and day to change me because I firmly believed that God would and could - why would I burn in hell for something I couldn't control? But nothing changed and I realized I was the way I was because I was supposed to be the way I am.

I think it's downright silly for people here to claim that the main purpose of humanity is to procreate - saying that makes us no advanced than any other animal species. No, we're not all meant to procreate and I believe that genes' are responsible for that drive. I also believe that in a large segment of the homosexual population that genetic drive to reproduce is somehow turned off. I see no disorder in that. After all, look at what 6 billion people are doing this world right now. I'd be [snip] glad that we're not all reproducing - our problems would be exponentially worse.

Little off topic but, where do you get people who are bisexual? Like i guess what i want to know is can you really like both sexes or are people just gay or straight?