Buddhist Conspiracy For World Perversion

Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy
reply to post by pepsi78

 

No, No, No... Wrong, Wrong, Wrong... Nice perversion of the truth tho!

If people are concerned about different philosophies within Buddhism such as; Anatta (No Self), Samsara (cycle of rebirth), Nirvana (ultimate peace and end of samsara), Karma (law of cause and effect), Emptiness, Meditation... then we can discuss that, but do not stand on the outside looking in and throw dirt into this house because you do not like what you see. Even for those who 'say' they have studied Buddhism, pick a topic and let's discuss. No more derailing the issue at hand by propagating your own belief systems or by recklessly characterizing what Buddhism is and means, when you obviously are struggling to grasp certain concepts about its intentions.

The assumption that Buddhism propagates suicide makes no sense. In fact, if we were to do a statistical analysis of the rate of suicide in Buddhism versus the three Abrahamic religions, Buddhism would trail behind so far that one might say they don't even register on the pie chart.

Buddhism deals with the problem of suffering directly, with no need of believing in a "higher power" or "God" to help you in doing so. It is reliant on your own power and will to transcend such a state. Buddhism merely points you in the right direction to figure out on your own how to do that. Once that is achieved, suicide is null and void as you have found true blissfulness and peace while your here on earth.

And that does give rise to morality! For the simple fact that we know all immoral things derive out of suffering, therefore once suffering is non-existent then immorality is also non-existent, meaning all that is left is morality. Very simple.

Whos definition of morality? Buddhisms?

Have you read CG Jung, Ramakrishna, Alice Bailey, Joseph Campbell etc? Suffering is such a generic term. And likewise, the solution to suffering is wide and varied. Basically, you can approach the subject of suffering and evil from two perspectives. The first, is the path you described. Act selfless, be good loving and compassionate person. When you live for others, and understand that as the way to achieve true bliss, than its fine. But there is also another way to deal with the subject of sufferring. Maybe youve never studied this path, but it exists in all religions (even Judaism was plagued by such a development. See Sabbateanism and Frankism. Unlike in other religions, however, these movements were quickly excommunicated simply because it completely went against the words and philosophy of the Torah. Plus, its selfish and simply evil).

CG Jungs philosophy of psychology expresses this belief system. It basically means instead of avoiding and thus eliminating negative spiritual traits, you embrace and accept them. Much of Greek, Egyptian and Babylonian mythology deals with this 'battle with the dragon'. The dragon is the personfiication of ones "shadow" or his evil side, with his evil desires and pleasure. Most people repress these feelings. So, psycholigically speaking, those who repress as opposed to cultivate the proper feelings, end up blowing up later on in an extreme of dangerous manner. Therefore, one has to learn to control, and tame his dragon; but still harness his raw animal power.

There are varying manifestations of this philosopy. It can mean doing evil for the sake of a good; ie, how the illuminates who run this world conduct themselves. It can mean all sorts of evil, and taboo actions.

For instance, the ancient worshippers of Dionysus would rip apart a live animal, and eat its raw flesh in a crazied rage. This was for the purpose of engaging the very archetype which Dionysus symbolized; animalistic rapture. Thus, his followers allowed thrmselves to become completely and utterly possessed by the power of this spiritual force. These people also engaged in human sacrifice. How was this rationalized? Well, in a relative way,. Dionysus is a god which controls this aspect of the human consciousness. By offerring themselves to dionysus, as a sacrifice, they believed that the god would reward them for their piety with joy, and a sense of grace. He was also the god who struck the minds of men with insanity when they repressed his nature.. By worshipping, and giving proper honor to this archetype, they were protected from ever succumbing to the power of Bacchus. So, in a a relative sense, killing when worshippng dionysus isnt in itself an amoral action. Becasue thats what Dionysus symbolizes. They didnt kill anyone. Dionysus did. And the one killed was killed by the will of Dionysus, and not the participants involved.

Thus, in this context, human morality is defered to the 'gods' the archetypes, whom they give their complete power of will over in conscious worship.

This CG Jung spoke of often in his writings; and many other authors, like Joseph Campbell for instance, spoke of "follow your bliss" as a way to overcome suffering. So basically, in this context, everyone is understood as a world, or universe, unto himself. You take care of your situation, and ill take care of mine. This is a exclusive spirituality which indeed does conquer suffering, in that suffering itself is understood as the Yin of Life. Its a counterpart to good, which has to be accepted. Only problem with this viewpoint, is that YOUR situation - the other person, is completely ignored.

What happens to you is the 'will of God, or the gods".And i am not responsible for you. As Cain said to G-d after he killed Abel "am i my brothers keeper?", which was a statement, rather than a question.

The Torah is describing this very mentality, which is incredibly ancient. The Egyptian and Babylonians both served as archetypes of this philosophy. Mitrayim itself means "limitations", and is from the Hebrew root Tzor "to cause pain". Bavel - Babylon in Hebrew, means "to confound and confuse".

Thats what that spiritual philosophy does. It confounds the natural order of creation, which is unity (amongst ALL parts, and not ignoring the sufferring of others) and limits man from reachings his spiritual potential.

reply to post by dontreally


Why do you always make such simple things so complicated? Suffering is a generic term? I am sure we both will agree on what suffering is. And transcending that suffering is not ignoring it, or avoiding it as you stated. Without addressing it as a reality, accepting it as real and facing it head on, it cannot be transcended. What you are speaking of is suppression, not transcending. Avoiding, ignoring, or suppressing suffering is not what Buddhists teach, or what Jung was speaking of.

And again, until you transcend your suffering you are of no use to anyone else, so you must focus on yourself to be able to truly help others. Sometimes doing nothing is better then doing something, especially if you are not an enlightened person. Why is that so difficult for you to understand? Why do you feel it is your "God" spoken duty to help others with their suffering when you are also still suffering? How can you be sure you are not causing more damage to them, unknowingly, if you have yet to realize your own condition? And if you have realized your own condition then you will not be focused on helping others, but instead you will be focused on helping yourself because you know without doing that you are of no use to them anyway. Simple, isn't it?

Theres clearly a lack clarity between what im writing and how youre responding.

Im pretty well read in this area. Jung, Bailey, Campbell, Von Franz, N_javascript:quote()euman.

Let me quote the leader of the Don Meh (only extant sabatean organization today. headquarted in turkey)

"The other Jews call me a heretic. Well, I am. And worse, an iconoclast too: my goal is nothing less than the breaking of all religious containers (and not just Judaism) for the sake of liberating God. In the words of my 18th century namesake and predecessor, Yakov Leib Frank, 'All the faiths and conducts and the books that have been written till today -- everyone who reads in them is like someone who has turned his head backwards and is looking at things already dead. All of it comes from the Gate of Death. But the wise man's eyes are ever in his head so he must look towards He-Who-Walks-In-Front.' Like Frank and the other radical antinomian Kabbalists who came before him, I worship God and not religion; I seek for His salvation and not my own.....or, even less-so, yours."

The Don Meh website has 6 figures on its front page. Shabbati Tzvi, Nathan of Gaza, Jacob Frank, Ramakrishna, Carl Jung and himself.

You seem to see a beauty in these ideas that i conversely find repulsive.

Let me try to address some things you wrote, in which you imagine you're edifying me of some immutable process.

Why do you always make such simple things so complicated?

What am i making complicated? I reference comparative mythology, and how the pagans of Asia minor and Greece conducted them. I mentioned them to point the 'deference' made to the gods, by defering all human responsibility, to them. Human will is thus called into question. Archetypes are pictured as 'gods', and indeed, tibetan buddhism along with hinduism worships gods. This by the way the Tanakh speaks of that at the end of time god will destroy all teh gods - or the archetypes worshipped by the nations. Aphrodite, Ares, Mercury, etc.

So, is this information not relevant to Buddhism? I already mentioned the pantheon of gods buddhsim worships, with tara having particular importance (BTW - Tara is from the same etyomological root as Ashtarte, Ishtar, the Hebrew Ashtarot, and the modern 'tarot'. Its the deification of the experiential reality, which is collectively the feminine)

. And transcending that suffering is not ignoring it, or avoiding it as you stated.

No, i said ignoring the suffering of OTHERS, is ignoring the unity, between each other. Just as i care for myself, so should i care for others. Theres no difference. The objective reality - this world, has to be united with the subjective reality - our own. No separation. Anything less is selfish and idolatry. G-d is one in ALL the worlds. This is the reason for objective commandments. Humans have the Chutzpah to imagine they morally know whats best. G-d gave man 7 laws, that if you follow them, your decisions will be aligned with the spiritual objective reality above. Ignoring, is incurring sin, and guilt.

Without addressing it as a reality, accepting it as real and facing it head on, it cannot be transcended.

Okay, were entering the world of pychology - ie pseudo scienced. Do not pass off 'not addressing your problems' as repression. For instance, i realize and acknowledge my probems, my lackings and my needs. Everynight i pray and ask for strength and support. Is this 'repression" or sublimation? You would probably call it repression. I call is sublimation. My problems, my 'evil' side, is being vented, and reflected in my prayer. I do not need to JUSTIFY it in order to deal with it. Nor do i see it as intrinsic to my being. But a 'shell' 'kelipah' which covers the fruit within. It has to be cracked, and broken, to appreciate the fruit inside.

Avoiding, ignoring, or suppressing suffering is not what Buddhists teach, or what Jung was speaking of.

What Jungs speaks of is contradictive at times. It can be hard to follow. The suffering is not repressed, first of all. And connecting ones suffering to G-d, which bring things into the highest possible context, i would definitely call 'transcendence'. Not only am i not bothered by problems, i neither fear them either. Therefore, i havent got much fear of suffering, nor do i justify it. I would say the Jewish way vs. this gnostic path is much more holy, simple and humble. Its man saying, "im suffering. Why am i sufferring? because im separated from you, my source. Im here in this lowly world. But i think this sufferring is for a deeper reason. Indeed, this sufferring helps me realize my futility. I am not all there is. A lacking exists in me. This awareness promotes a humility. And that humility sets up the background for a relationship with G-d, our creator and source".

Again. This is not based on speculation. I already told you Hebrew, as a language, definitely indicates that G-d gave the Torah to man. Regardless of what archeology or mythologists, anthopologists or ethnologsits have to say. Statistically speaking, it is sheer absurdity to imagine Hebrew, with its remarkable consistency, is man made.

And again, until you transcend your suffering you are of no use to anyone else, so you must focus on yourself to be able to truly help others. Sometimes doing nothing is better then doing something, especially if you are not an enlightened person. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

Why cant you do both at once? Why cant you follow basic commandments. Be good to others, help them, show compassion - to those who deserve compassion (ie decent people, and not scoundrels) in addition to working on yourself within (paradoxically, giving, is actually recieving, in that the very act of giving changes you, and gives something 'spiritual' to you)

This may be what you believe, but it is not what Jung or many other schools of thought in pagan religions believe. There is room for nastiness, and sensualism, licentiousness, sarcasm, nihilism, etc. Look at Greek Myth. Can it be any more arrogant? It glorifies itself in its knowledge of man, and experiences. An ex. When someone else thinks and believes that being mean, will help 'build character' in a person, i say that person is an arrogant shmuck. As if being mean is the only way to grow. No. People grow regardless. Youre not G-d, and its not your job to mistreat others (despite the satisfaction it would give you).

How can you be sure you are not causing more damage to them, unknowingly, if you have yet to realize your own condition? And if you have realized your own condition then you will not be focused on helping others, but instead you will be focused on helping yourself because you know without doing that you are of no use to them anyway. Simple, isn't it?

Didnt follow the logic. How am i of no use to them? do kind words, and help and support, not help others? Granted. If someone doesnt want my help, i wont help them. But if i see they can use my help, i will definitely seek to help them. My suffering? Life IS About sufferring. This world is not made for us to transcend, and avoid it. Were in this world to CHANGE and transform it. Judaism gives meaning to this world, whle buddhism takes it all away, and says 'bliss' is all there is. Sorry for seeing that as a little self motivated. In Judaism, one seeks to bring bliss, and joy, to his source, G-d. One is therefore trying to focus his heart on the other - G-d, which manfiests equally in all created things. If i turn away from someone who needs help, or someone who is sensitive and who requires being spoken to in a gentle manner, i would be acting carlessly and brazenly. Living this way, paradoxically, brings one joy. Of course, at my level, i act often for self benefit, and rarelt experience truly selflessness (in that i had no ulteriro motive). And most human beings do so. That does not mean that im being dishonest by focusing my heart and mind on the omnipresent. I look to him because hes the source, and its his will that i do whats right, and good and constructive. By doing so i atleast sbujugate my body, to him. My mind may not be totally with him (though after many years of doing this, one does experience tremendous growth in this way) but my body will do what it needs to do fullfill his will.

Anyways. I see your justifying that strain of thought. You people always sound so kindly but... The majority of westerners who learn about budhism dont quite understand the whole nature of it. Yes, most Buddhists are good people. But, theres a moral laxity, as i said earlier and a liberalism and 'its ok' mentality, even in the face of evil. Instead of fighting it, youd rather 'transcend' it. Which of course, is of no good use to this world, and entirely helpful to the very perpetuators of evil.

The talmud says something that i absolutely love, and that is: When someone is coming to kill you, you go out and kill him first. Why? To protect your life. Your life is precious in the eyes of G-d.

Likewise, my signature says "showing mercy to the cruel, is showing cruelty to the merciful".

These are such logical, and intuitively true conclusions. So much of what Buddhism says, conversely, is not intuitive, or naturally present, as a quality of conscience. It instead seeks convenience. For everyone.

Judaism doesnt shirk responsibility. They believe, because G-d told them, taht this world has a purpose. They seek their entire live to carry this burden, to fight the satan (which lit. means 'adversay') . This fight builds spiritual muscle. just as the resistance of a heavy weight builds physical muscle.

reply to post by rileytardell


This was pretty funny but way too extreme
At any rate it's nice to see someone railing against Buddhism instead of Christianity for a change.

Now here is my opinion. First of all, no group is entirely good. There are bad Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. Do bad examples make the whole group evil? No. That's the same idiotic falacy that brings many atheists to the conclusion that ALL Roman Catholics molest children (not defending the RCC).

Secondly, there is nothing wrong with pacifism, infact it is one of the central tenents of Christianity and Judaism. We should all look towards the World to Come when all men shall put down their weapons, animals can talk as they did in Eden (read Jubilees), and tofu products don't taste like crap anymore.

Thirdly, there is nothing wrong with the teachings of Buddha. Much of what Buddha said (if he existed. There is less evidence for Buddha than for Yeshuah) was very similar to Christian morality. Buddha was a great teacher just like my 8th grade english teacher, but he isn't any more of a religious leader than she is. Why is this? He is not God incarnate as Yeshuah is. No other religion believes in the teachings of God incarnated as man. So, Yeshuah is the only true authority and the only one worth following. All others are merely men who met their deaths and did not triumph over death.

reply to post by Threadfall


LOL! I have met plenty of Buddists who try to convert. If you truely believe in a philosphy and ideal, ofcourse you are going to offer it to others so they can share in what you find good and holy. Atheists try to convert others as well.

DontReally, you have tried to create a new version of Judaism ignoring all the bad parts. Judaism does not teach unity but separation. Judaism is about satisfying your wants and creating a religion around it. There is no morality inherent in it, that is why there are so many laws. I am glad you have learned something from your studies of eastern philosophy and that is non-duality and unity. You have tried to hijack this idea and apply it to Judaism. In Buddhism, the reason you don't kill is because of the connection of all living things. You will have empathy for them because of this understanding.

Originally posted by BillfromCovina
DontReally, you have tried to create a new version of Judaism ignoring all the bad parts. Judaism does not teach unity but separation. Judaism is about satisfying your wants and creating a religion around it. There is no morality inherent in it, that is why there are so many laws. I am glad you have learned something from your studies of eastern philosophy and that is non-duality and unity. You have tried to hijack this idea and apply it to Judaism. In Buddhism, the reason you don't kill is because of the connection of all living things. You will have empathy for them because of this understanding.

Maybe you should learn something about Judaism, from Jewish source, before you start lecturing me about Judaism.

How, exactly though, do you reason that many laws is "satisfying your wants".

Ill give you a situation. A Jewish boy goes to a baseball game. Its the 7th inning stretch and hes starving. A man at the end of his aisle buys a hotdog and it passes by him. resisting the urge to eat that Hotdog, or buy himself one, is not "satisfying your wants". Its the exact opposite of that.

What kind of demented logic are you using?

Judaism is about refining ones desires. And this requires rejection of the bad and negative, and acceptance of the good.

Wherever it is you get your knowledge of judaism from, whether that be a texe marrs book or w/e, its incredibly skewed. The Jewish declaration of Faith, which is said twice a day, in the morning and at night "shema Israel, Hashem Elohenu, Hashem ECHAD". The last part of that phrase, Echad - one, is stressed and said longer. This word also shares the same gematria as the Hebrew word for Love - ahava = 13. Judaism is all about unity; which is why its seeks to reject the passions of the body, and subjugate it to the will of the soul. Thats unity. The body in this example becomes a translucent vessel which shines with the light of the soul. Ones entire physical livelyhood, is than a constant spiritual meditation.

This is the great ignorance - mammoth ignorance, us christian westerners have had of Judaism. It looks - again, a cheap superficial - that Jews are focused on the material. But in truth, observant Jews are involved in uniting the will of the soul with that of the body.

Whatever you have to say,. I unlike you, have studied both Eastern and Western philosophy. I have respect for many ideas in each system. But to say Judaism doesnt seek unity, is flagrant, and patantly wrong. Judaism is all about unity. If you look around, i dont see any instances of Jews killing others Jews, like catholics have done to protestants, or shi'ite vs. sunnis. Judaism is a peaceful religion. Its a saying of the Rabbis in the Talmud that "peace is precious - above all, seek peace".

Maybe you just have a deeply seeded hatred or replusion with Jews and Judaism. They cant be 'spiritual'. look at them. Theyre divisive, hateful etc. People with that attitude sicken me. Literally. It is such a revolting and racist attitude. Most observant Jews dont bother gentiles. They want to live in peace - as a WHO THEY ARE. Just as a Buddhist wants to respect the traditions of his forefathers, so do Jews deserve that G-d given right. The idea that their insulation somehow prevents human consolidation is a racist, theosophical fabrication that really just wants to see the end, and destruction, and elimination of the memory of Judaism, the Bible and their values, from the world.

reply to post by dontreally

I believe it's you who have not read the Torah. Killing, raping, and pillaging were justified from the Torah and is still to this day. With the Torah comes the Talmud, another highly immoral document. From your posts I gather you are Jewish even though you say you are not. This means to me that you also have no problem lying. Another indicator of the morality taught. You posted in this thread to attack Buddhism and promote Judaism. Expect some arrows in your direction.

Where you have organised religion you have the opportunity for exploitation. This is what is happening in almost all religions nowadays. Im sure that not all Christians and Bhuddists are bad but no doubt there are bad seeds amongst them. You have communities of good, kind people that are trusting and open, this is ripe for infiltration by any kind of twisted evil monsters and unfortunately these people usually rise to the top of the organisation by any means possible. Personally i dont think Bhuddha or Jesus intended any kind of organized following in their name (as god is inside us why would we need to go to someone else to find him?) The masses have been decieved or centuries. What i say is be responsible only to yourself and god, look within and then you will be uncorruptable to any outside influence's like going to priests and they will absolve your sins by getting you to say ten hail mary's or whatever! Absolutely ludicrous!!!

Jesus said, "The kingdom of god is within you"
Buddha said, “He who meditates attentively will attain abundant joy.”

What you are desperately seeking is inside you! What are you looking outside for???

reply to post by rileytardell

I would agree, while it's very intresting it can be used of brainwashing of the mind.
Budism can alter the perception of the mind.

Jesus said, "The kingdom of god is within you"
Buddha said, “He who meditates attentively will attain abundant joy.”

Acording to what you say joy comes at a cost, giving up the self inside you.
Then you get indoctrinated, to do what you are told.
I don't think all is inside, but the self, god's creation, and god made us in his image ? go figure.

reply to post by pepsi78


Who is going to indoctrinate you, yourself?

Originally posted by DrunkYogi
reply to post by pepsi78

 

Who is going to indoctrinate you, yourself?

Giving up the self , empty on the inside, the empty mind ? Brainwashing to be more specific.
Then once that takes place you are very very open to influence, there is no more feelings nothing.

dp removed

reply to post by dontreally


Ok we have established our terms of reference with me as a gnostic. I will not label for you as you can better do it for yourself should you need to. The key point however and the OP relates to Buddhism. In both cases Buddhism does have some significant overlaps with QBL. The point being is that both seek to practice life a contemplative life. What has happened is that Buddhism has given very simply teachings that will change the psychology of the practioner. The Buddhist exploration is the root causes of suffering is the key teaching and for Americans who have been programmed for rampant consumerism.

The extreme hostility of the OP is something that really reflects the puritanism that exists in the US.

Originally posted by tiger5
reply to post by dontreally

 

Ok we have established our terms of reference with me as a gnostic. I will not label for you as you can better do it for yourself should you need to. The key point however and the OP relates to Buddhism. In both cases Buddhism does have some significant overlaps with QBL. The point being is that both seek to practice life a contemplative life. What has happened is that Buddhism has given very simply teachings that will change the psychology of the practioner. The Buddhist exploration is the root causes of suffering is the key teaching and for Americans who have been programmed for rampant consumerism.

The extreme hostility of the OP is something that really reflects the puritanism that exists in the US.

The problem with the original poster, along with many others, is a servere ignorance in religious philosophy.

They take the symbol, as literal, and therefore look at everything in that context. Buddhsim, becomes some satanic ruse to snare 'christians' and the 'saved'..

Dont get me wrong. That IS stupid, and irritating. My problem with Buddhism, Gnosticism and those antinomian thought streams, is simply, their antinomianism. That is such a broad term, in itself. Of course, you cant say that all buddhists follow the same path or 'dharma' but the fact that they tolerate and condone, all paths which seek to abrogate suffering as legtimate is where i begin to take offence.

Again. I know plenty of new agers, buddhists, gnostics who are good decent people

I know others who sicken and distrub me - their arrogance is so alarming. One thing i like about Jewish logic is its emhpasis on the conclusion. Sometimes a certain course of reason can lead you to a very counter intuitive conclusion. Judaism sees this and so discounts that sort of line of reasoning. An example of this line of reasoning is doing evil for the sake of good. Or regarding both good and evil as equal. Or reversing the relationship between good and evil, where good can become evil and evil good. These sort of ideas abound in eastern and western esoteric thought. Judaism sees this for it is. A corruption in logic. Intuition, what one knows superationally to be true, is more of a guide in how we should conduct ourselves what some path of reasoning can indicate.

Nobody is born with the thought that evil is good. It takes philosophy to make them think that. And THAN they begin to see that idea as a truth.

If you want to better understand this idea (since i dont think i do it justice, as its a complicated subject) go listen to Rabbi David Gottleib at simpletoremember.org. He was a professor at John Hopkins university in the philosophy of logic. So, as a logician, hes much more able to explain this subject than i am.

I say again - Fundamentalists.

Thousands of religions. But they're answers are all the same.

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy

Budism is based on ying and yang, dark side and bright side, same as kabalah, it deals with it's dual nature of things. Time flows from left to right like a river left the begining right the end, then comes the begining again as a cicle, this is as a perspective, of course life is more complex than this full of choices. You will notice on the budist mumies that they hold the pheonix of rebirth. Some argue that we go on the sea and get ribirth from there, it's religions and religions, in the end it's just speculations and nothing can be proven what comes after life. One thing I can be sure of is that there is a god, it has been proven to me in front of my face.

I have no clue what you are talking about.

Come again.

reply to post by dontreally


I do know many new agers and alternative thinkers who are completely arogant. In many cases their is the guilt of the newby. Sometimes it is the asses that bray the loudest have the least to say and then burn out before the great work.

My discussions with the Judiac Qabalists have indicated that there is littel understanding of the key experience of the point where the macrocosmic and microcosmic overlap. Yes knowledge and conversation does not happen and then ignorance goes on and on.


I celebrate Buddhism because it actually has been one of the religions that has given us a perfect antidote to these consumerist times. Where even sex is a commodity to be traded like grain.

Also the stuff on aspects of the afterlife for practising psychics as opposed to wannabees, fools and skeptics is crucial. Despite having an interest in philosophy, my life work is practical gnosticism so as you can understand I follow my destiny.

You can only understand buddhism by immercing yourself in the practice for a while and understanding it from within.

I prefer the litoral QBL to the archair QBL.