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Buddhist Conspiracy For World Perversion
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Virtue is a must if one seeks to create good karma and transcend the cycle of samsara. Realization of this truth can only come through compassion and
wisdom. And it should not be labeled an "escape" from anything. Suffering is real for all sentient beings, and this is the causation for greed,
hate, war, corruption, division... Buddhism merely offers a path to transcend it so the world can be a better place.
As an attempt at explaining the universe, its origin, and man's situation in his world, the God-idea was found entirely unconvincing by the Buddhist thinkers of old. Through the centuries, Buddhist philosophers have formulated detailed arguments refuting the doctrine of a creator god. It should be of interest to compare these with the ways in which Western philosophers have refuted the theological proofs of the existence of God.
But for an earnest believer, the God-idea is more than a mere device for explaining external facts like the origin of the world. For him it is an object of faith that can bestow a strong feeling of certainty, not only as to God's existence "somewhere out there," but as to God's consoling presence and closeness to himself. This feeling of certainty requires close scrutiny. Such scrutiny will reveal that in most cases the God-idea is only the devotee's projection of his ideal — generally a noble one — and of his fervent wish and deeply felt need to believe. These projections are largely conditioned by external influences, such as childhood impressions, education, tradition and social environment. Charged with a strong emotional emphasis, brought to life by man's powerful capacity for image-formation, visualization and the creation of myth, they then come to be identified with the images and concepts of whatever religion the devotee follows. In the case of many of the most sincere believers, a searching analysis would show that their "God-experience" has no more specific content than this.
Buddhism is not an enemy of religion as atheism is believed to be. Buddhism, indeed, is the enemy of none. A Buddhist will recognize and appreciate whatever ethical, spiritual and cultural values have been created by God-belief in its long and checkered history. We cannot, however, close our eyes to the fact that the God-concept has served too often as a cloak for man's will to power, and the reckless and cruel use of that power, thus adding considerably to the ample measure of misery in this world supposed to be an all-loving God's creation. For centuries free thought, free research and the expression of dissident views were obstructed and stifled in the name of service to God. And alas, these and other negative consequences are not yet entirely things of the past.
An ancient verse ascribed to the Buddha in the Questions of King Milinda says:
Not far from here do you need to look!
Highest existence — what can it avail?
Here in this present aggregate,
In your own body overcome the world!
As an attempt at explaining the universe, its origin, and man's situation in his world, the God-idea was found entirely unconvincing by the Buddhist thinkers of old. Through the centuries, Buddhist philosophers have formulated detailed arguments refuting the doctrine of a creator god. It should be of interest to compare these with the ways in which Western philosophers have refuted the theological proofs of the existence of God.
But for an earnest believer, the God-idea is more than a mere device for explaining external facts like the origin of the world. For him it is an object of faith that can bestow a strong feeling of certainty, not only as to God's existence "somewhere out there," but as to God's consoling presence and closeness to himself. This feeling of certainty requires close scrutiny. Such scrutiny will reveal that in most cases the God-idea is only the devotee's projection of his ideal — generally a noble one — and of his fervent wish and deeply felt need to believe. These projections are largely conditioned by external influences, such as childhood impressions, education, tradition and social environment. Charged with a strong emotional emphasis, brought to life by man's powerful capacity for image-formation, visualization and the creation of myth, they then come to be identified with the images and concepts of whatever religion the devotee follows. In the case of many of the most sincere believers, a searching analysis would show that their "God-experience" has no more specific content than this.
Buddhism is not an enemy of religion as atheism is believed to be. Buddhism, indeed, is the enemy of none. A Buddhist will recognize and appreciate whatever ethical, spiritual and cultural values have been created by God-belief in its long and checkered history. We cannot, however, close our eyes to the fact that the God-concept has served too often as a cloak for man's will to power, and the reckless and cruel use of that power, thus adding considerably to the ample measure of misery in this world supposed to be an all-loving God's creation. For centuries free thought, free research and the expression of dissident views were obstructed and stifled in the name of service to God. And alas, these and other negative consequences are not yet entirely things of the past.
An ancient verse ascribed to the Buddha in the Questions of King Milinda says:
Not far from here do you need to look!
Highest existence — what can it avail?
Here in this present aggregate,
In your own body overcome the world!
Buddhism is a purpose built attitude, philosophy, way of life, way of meditating. It's purpose is to render impotent the sufferings of birth,
old age, sickness and death. It's most important insight is that of shunyata.
Shunyata is sometimes translated as "emptiness" or "voidness". Everything is found, when examined closely, to be empty, or void of own being. That is just another way of saying that everything is made up of parts. No thing knowable in the conventional sense is the ground of it's own existence.
This leads, in Buddhist writings to numerous re-iterations of negatives regarding the existence of this or that object, emotion, thought, etc. This leads to the charge that Buddhism is nihilist, but the charge doesn't stick because, although Buddhism denies the "own being" of any object with characteristics, it accepts that there is a persistent substratum, the dharmadhatu devoid of observable characteristics.
This dharmadhatu is intuited when, through the practice of meditation, the void (shunya) nature of the mind itself is realized. The thing is that one realizes shunyata in meditation. One experiences it and then returns to ordinary awareness. (Something like visiting Brooklyn and then coming home.) In that way we know that, something, devoid of characteristics, exists
This conclusion is a post-meditative logical conclusion. It's kind of like the way science talks about particles they can't see but logically conclude that they must have this or that property.
The charge of nihilism, as applied to Buddhism, is made by people who don't really understand these details.
Buddhist writings generally make the point that they do not describe Buddhist experience. They merely point to it. One can not acquire a comprehensive understanding of the achievements of the Buddha and his followers by reading Buddhist texts and the texts themselves generally make this clear.
The real test of Buddhism is meditation. In fact, it is possible to achieve so-called enlightenment without reading any text at all, or even being aware of Buddhism. People who do this are known as pratyekabuddhas. Usually they are hermit types. They can be verified as pratyekabuddhas by other enlightened beings.
When you study Buddhism textually, from the ground up, it can be hard at times to understand, but a person who is enlightened can understand abstruse Buddhist texts easily, even if they have never been a scholar.
In Buddhism, the bottom line is that you do have to meditate and achieve realization to understand it properly. That lets a lot of typical scholars out of the picture. Being an expert in road maps is not being an expert on the road.
Note: The above reference to Brooklyn is not a slam on Brooklyn, despite the lurking presence of humor in it. I have never been to Brooklyn, although I have seen the movie, "Spike of Bensonhurst". (Loved it.)
Shunyata is sometimes translated as "emptiness" or "voidness". Everything is found, when examined closely, to be empty, or void of own being. That is just another way of saying that everything is made up of parts. No thing knowable in the conventional sense is the ground of it's own existence.
This leads, in Buddhist writings to numerous re-iterations of negatives regarding the existence of this or that object, emotion, thought, etc. This leads to the charge that Buddhism is nihilist, but the charge doesn't stick because, although Buddhism denies the "own being" of any object with characteristics, it accepts that there is a persistent substratum, the dharmadhatu devoid of observable characteristics.
This dharmadhatu is intuited when, through the practice of meditation, the void (shunya) nature of the mind itself is realized. The thing is that one realizes shunyata in meditation. One experiences it and then returns to ordinary awareness. (Something like visiting Brooklyn and then coming home.) In that way we know that, something, devoid of characteristics, exists
This conclusion is a post-meditative logical conclusion. It's kind of like the way science talks about particles they can't see but logically conclude that they must have this or that property.
The charge of nihilism, as applied to Buddhism, is made by people who don't really understand these details.
Buddhist writings generally make the point that they do not describe Buddhist experience. They merely point to it. One can not acquire a comprehensive understanding of the achievements of the Buddha and his followers by reading Buddhist texts and the texts themselves generally make this clear.
The real test of Buddhism is meditation. In fact, it is possible to achieve so-called enlightenment without reading any text at all, or even being aware of Buddhism. People who do this are known as pratyekabuddhas. Usually they are hermit types. They can be verified as pratyekabuddhas by other enlightened beings.
When you study Buddhism textually, from the ground up, it can be hard at times to understand, but a person who is enlightened can understand abstruse Buddhist texts easily, even if they have never been a scholar.
In Buddhism, the bottom line is that you do have to meditate and achieve realization to understand it properly. That lets a lot of typical scholars out of the picture. Being an expert in road maps is not being an expert on the road.
Note: The above reference to Brooklyn is not a slam on Brooklyn, despite the lurking presence of humor in it. I have never been to Brooklyn, although I have seen the movie, "Spike of Bensonhurst". (Loved it.)
edit on 28-11-2010 by ipsedixit because: (no reason given)
Hey thanks for completely ignoring my post.
I would like to actually have a discussion instead of you bashing the 'mythic' nature of believing in G-d.
The idea i proffered earlier can be compared in microcosm to mans highest faculty "will" and its manifestation, in action(malkhut). The entire Kabbalah and esoteric philosophy is based on this idea. The process in between pure desire and action constitutes the spiritual worlds between man and G-d. They are abstract and called 'spiritual'.
Each sphere symbolizes a particular archetypal function used by the creator to interact with man and creation.
In a human spiritual sense, these 10 levels manifest as 'Will' - Keter, conceptualization - Chokmah, Cognition - Binah, The next 3 sefirot act as a triad. Chesed, Gevurah, Tiferet, are an inner focused stage of emotion where one establishes his feelings about a particular subject. Chesed is a total expansion, Gevurah a total contraction, and tiferet a balance and harmony between the two. The following triad of Netzach, Hod, Yesod deals with the application of this 'energy' outward. The right vector deals with the power to 'dominate', and the left column with the power to empathize. while the middle sphere, Yesod, synthesizes the two. Malkhut is the action itself. Everytime we act this process occurs instantaneously. The sefirot constitute all processes in creation. Every phenomena, whether spiritual or physical, is a function of the sefirot. In each sefirah itself are intercluded the entire ten sefirot, and this goes on ad infinitum. In each particularly phenomena, a particular sefirah and triad is more dominant, and thus said to reflect this quality most.
So with this explained. Keter corresponds to the highest spiritual level. The world of Adam Kadmon. The next lower of world of emanation, called the world of Atzilut is composed of 6 partzufim(personas). I mentioned the first two earlier, correspond to the Keter of Atzilut (The highest sphere in the world of emanation). This Keter is divided into two personas. Arich Anpin and Atik Yomin. The former is 'desire' and the latter, pleasure. The former 'protrudes' and sticks out. It is the beginning of a separate reality. In a purely psychological sense, "desire" is the first conscious apprehension of spiritual activity. Pleasure, precedes action in that one doesnt desire unless he seeks pleasure. Likewise, one cant experience pleasure without first having the desire for it. Therefore one isnt AWARE of pleasure until desire is expressed. In essence, they are bound up in the same sphere, but the pleasure precedes will and is deemed more internal, and primary in that people simply wouldnt desire without pleasure. This is similar to the buddhist idea that desire has to be rooted out, in order to unite with the intrinsic bliss behind all existence (the level of Atik Yomin). Thus, buddhists dont seek to satisfy the divine pleasure, with THIS, physical world, by performing commandment. They instead go straight for the bliss, Atik Yomin, which is attained through overcoming all desire for physical, transient things (but apparently not the desire to root these things out).
G-d commandments, the 7 noahide laws, emanate from Arich Anpin (the external, level keter which interacts with the world), whereas Atik Yomin, is hidden. Its the "hidden pleasure" thats only revealed when the desire "will" of G-d, is fullfilled in this lowliest of worlds - action, which reflects the will back upwards, and excites the divine pleasure - "Atik Yomin" with us having performed the almighties will.
I dont usually like breaking things down this way, because it sorta neglects the amazing mystical joy one experiences when he lives a Torah lifestyle. For a Jew who performs the 613 laws, its much greater, becuase they perform the whole will of the creator. For a Bnei Noach (children of Noah), mankind has to follow 7 Noahide Laws. unlike what is peddled at conspiracy sites, the 7 laws of Noach are also followed by Jews, as the 7 laws themselves are contained in the 10 commandments. Jews have additional laws, which connect and draw influence into this world. Why the Jews? Why are there priests, leaders? There are "chosen" people in all spheres of life. Does that make them BETTER? or does that simply mean each person has a role, and station to assume in his earthly life. Each place is meaningul because each place poses a CHALLENGE for the soul to overcome. This is all connected to the idea of Olam Tikkun (rectifying the world). Jews were given a priestly, inward focused role, whereas the 6 + billions Gentiles, who contstitute the majority of humanity, were created to 'adorn' the Tree of Life. To be outward focused, to developed this physical world and bring G-d into it. Depending on ones perspective, being a Bnei Noach is even more desirable, because were granted greater flexibility and freedom from regiment. Whereas a Jew has to seriously focus himself to an incredible degree to perperly perform each of the 613 laws. But at the same time, these actions draw down a level of bliss and blessing that the effort is well worth the the effort. So, each is good in his place. If one wants to enter the covenant, and become a Jew, he may do so. So theres no 'superiority' in the Jewish position. Only a role. A priestly caste, devoted to many commandments, and a humanity, who serves G-d in their own unique station, accorded the same rights to seek a living, have a family and serve G-d. The nation of america, by the way, was founded on the Noahide Laws, and the concept of a representative government, a republic, is hinted at in the story of Jethros advice to moses on how to run the people (he essentially says, appoint reprtesentatives for the 'little things' ie; local issues, and the big things they'll come to you "national issues". This is a representative, non centralized government)
The seven laws listed by the Tosefta and the Talmud are[3][4]
1. Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before God.
2. Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder. (Genesis 9:6)
3. Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal.
4. Prohibition of Sexual immorality: You shall not commit any of a series of sexual prohibitions, namely adultery, incest, anal sex between men and bestiality.
5. Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme God's name.
6. Dietary Law: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. (Genesis 9:4, as interpreted in the Talmud (Sanhedrin 59a)
7. Requirement to have just Laws:
These 7 commandments excite the divine pleasure; and HaShem (the name - a modest epithet for the tetragrammaton) responds by sending down divine bounty, and holiness into the world. This is basically a responce from below - from mankind, to the call from above - G-d, which results in a response from above - G-d, to take pleasure in us - Mankind. As a gentile who came from a christian background i find this idea amazing, and utterly beuatiful. I cannot imagine a more perfect, and personal meaning in life. Not only are we trained to look past the dualism of lower existence, but we begin to experience it as an actual extension of G-d, in this world, with us. This world becomes what it was meant to be; a Garden of Eden. Eden refers to the bliss and blessing of the holy one, and the garden refers to this world, which 'tends' this reality, in this world. This world is the projection of the spiritual worlds, with its concepts, into this world, crystalized and made real (much more real than the 'abstract'). Therefore we know G-d in a deeper sense, when we connect with him through this world.
I also find purpose, and Judaism recognizes it aswell, in the beauty of other cultures, and religions. But they all must adhere to the 7 laws of Noah. I know of many groups in America, Native americans, Cherokee, who embrace the 7 laws of Noach and revere and study the Holy Torah. But they also follow the teachings of their ancestors and forefathers, and G-d wouldnt want anything less. Likewise, in China, with their beuatiful and peaceful Taosim; Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam etc. Imagine this was Christianiy or Islams view. Because it isnt, you know what their divine 'mission' is all about. Turning all the rest of us into them. Forced assimilation. Judaism calls for nothing else but the moral acknowledgement of the 7 laws of noah, which if you look it up at wikipedia, are laws recognized by many other religious traditions, For instance, the leader of Israels Druze population, signed a document acknowledging that the Druze population will follow G-ds 7 laws. Representatives from Buddhist, Hindu and Taoist groups, have also come to Jerusalem to make known their allegiance to the 7 laws. These are actual, real laws given to mankind. Only Judaism has committed themselves to following them and hence the great aggression the nations, the western aristocratic elite, have historically held towards Judaism. Also, Another big figure who has publically acknowledged the 7 noahide laws, is Adnan Oktar, a very well known Islamic Scholar and spiritual leader from Turkey Harun Haya. Additionally, Education day in the USA is built around the 7 laws of Noah.
Heres an excerpt from Adman Oktars interview with some represenatives of the renwed Jewish Sanhedrin
This may sound like silly nonsense buts it very real, and there is an esoteric wisdom which justifies its truth. The above tried to explain that. And all those above cases prove that its an idea taken very seriously by more than just the Jews. What could possibly be wrong with any of those laws? Theyre spiritual laws which all mankind should seek to follow, with fait and simplicity. In addition to this, every religion, and tradition has its own path to know G-d. Its own language, culture music and way with connecting with G-d. All thats needed, is humility, and submission to the divine will embodied in these 7 laws.
I would like to actually have a discussion instead of you bashing the 'mythic' nature of believing in G-d.
The idea i proffered earlier can be compared in microcosm to mans highest faculty "will" and its manifestation, in action(malkhut). The entire Kabbalah and esoteric philosophy is based on this idea. The process in between pure desire and action constitutes the spiritual worlds between man and G-d. They are abstract and called 'spiritual'.
Each sphere symbolizes a particular archetypal function used by the creator to interact with man and creation.
In a human spiritual sense, these 10 levels manifest as 'Will' - Keter, conceptualization - Chokmah, Cognition - Binah, The next 3 sefirot act as a triad. Chesed, Gevurah, Tiferet, are an inner focused stage of emotion where one establishes his feelings about a particular subject. Chesed is a total expansion, Gevurah a total contraction, and tiferet a balance and harmony between the two. The following triad of Netzach, Hod, Yesod deals with the application of this 'energy' outward. The right vector deals with the power to 'dominate', and the left column with the power to empathize. while the middle sphere, Yesod, synthesizes the two. Malkhut is the action itself. Everytime we act this process occurs instantaneously. The sefirot constitute all processes in creation. Every phenomena, whether spiritual or physical, is a function of the sefirot. In each sefirah itself are intercluded the entire ten sefirot, and this goes on ad infinitum. In each particularly phenomena, a particular sefirah and triad is more dominant, and thus said to reflect this quality most.
So with this explained. Keter corresponds to the highest spiritual level. The world of Adam Kadmon. The next lower of world of emanation, called the world of Atzilut is composed of 6 partzufim(personas). I mentioned the first two earlier, correspond to the Keter of Atzilut (The highest sphere in the world of emanation). This Keter is divided into two personas. Arich Anpin and Atik Yomin. The former is 'desire' and the latter, pleasure. The former 'protrudes' and sticks out. It is the beginning of a separate reality. In a purely psychological sense, "desire" is the first conscious apprehension of spiritual activity. Pleasure, precedes action in that one doesnt desire unless he seeks pleasure. Likewise, one cant experience pleasure without first having the desire for it. Therefore one isnt AWARE of pleasure until desire is expressed. In essence, they are bound up in the same sphere, but the pleasure precedes will and is deemed more internal, and primary in that people simply wouldnt desire without pleasure. This is similar to the buddhist idea that desire has to be rooted out, in order to unite with the intrinsic bliss behind all existence (the level of Atik Yomin). Thus, buddhists dont seek to satisfy the divine pleasure, with THIS, physical world, by performing commandment. They instead go straight for the bliss, Atik Yomin, which is attained through overcoming all desire for physical, transient things (but apparently not the desire to root these things out).
G-d commandments, the 7 noahide laws, emanate from Arich Anpin (the external, level keter which interacts with the world), whereas Atik Yomin, is hidden. Its the "hidden pleasure" thats only revealed when the desire "will" of G-d, is fullfilled in this lowliest of worlds - action, which reflects the will back upwards, and excites the divine pleasure - "Atik Yomin" with us having performed the almighties will.
I dont usually like breaking things down this way, because it sorta neglects the amazing mystical joy one experiences when he lives a Torah lifestyle. For a Jew who performs the 613 laws, its much greater, becuase they perform the whole will of the creator. For a Bnei Noach (children of Noah), mankind has to follow 7 Noahide Laws. unlike what is peddled at conspiracy sites, the 7 laws of Noach are also followed by Jews, as the 7 laws themselves are contained in the 10 commandments. Jews have additional laws, which connect and draw influence into this world. Why the Jews? Why are there priests, leaders? There are "chosen" people in all spheres of life. Does that make them BETTER? or does that simply mean each person has a role, and station to assume in his earthly life. Each place is meaningul because each place poses a CHALLENGE for the soul to overcome. This is all connected to the idea of Olam Tikkun (rectifying the world). Jews were given a priestly, inward focused role, whereas the 6 + billions Gentiles, who contstitute the majority of humanity, were created to 'adorn' the Tree of Life. To be outward focused, to developed this physical world and bring G-d into it. Depending on ones perspective, being a Bnei Noach is even more desirable, because were granted greater flexibility and freedom from regiment. Whereas a Jew has to seriously focus himself to an incredible degree to perperly perform each of the 613 laws. But at the same time, these actions draw down a level of bliss and blessing that the effort is well worth the the effort. So, each is good in his place. If one wants to enter the covenant, and become a Jew, he may do so. So theres no 'superiority' in the Jewish position. Only a role. A priestly caste, devoted to many commandments, and a humanity, who serves G-d in their own unique station, accorded the same rights to seek a living, have a family and serve G-d. The nation of america, by the way, was founded on the Noahide Laws, and the concept of a representative government, a republic, is hinted at in the story of Jethros advice to moses on how to run the people (he essentially says, appoint reprtesentatives for the 'little things' ie; local issues, and the big things they'll come to you "national issues". This is a representative, non centralized government)
The seven laws listed by the Tosefta and the Talmud are[3][4]
1. Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before God.
2. Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder. (Genesis 9:6)
3. Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal.
4. Prohibition of Sexual immorality: You shall not commit any of a series of sexual prohibitions, namely adultery, incest, anal sex between men and bestiality.
5. Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme God's name.
6. Dietary Law: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. (Genesis 9:4, as interpreted in the Talmud (Sanhedrin 59a)
7. Requirement to have just Laws:
These 7 commandments excite the divine pleasure; and HaShem (the name - a modest epithet for the tetragrammaton) responds by sending down divine bounty, and holiness into the world. This is basically a responce from below - from mankind, to the call from above - G-d, which results in a response from above - G-d, to take pleasure in us - Mankind. As a gentile who came from a christian background i find this idea amazing, and utterly beuatiful. I cannot imagine a more perfect, and personal meaning in life. Not only are we trained to look past the dualism of lower existence, but we begin to experience it as an actual extension of G-d, in this world, with us. This world becomes what it was meant to be; a Garden of Eden. Eden refers to the bliss and blessing of the holy one, and the garden refers to this world, which 'tends' this reality, in this world. This world is the projection of the spiritual worlds, with its concepts, into this world, crystalized and made real (much more real than the 'abstract'). Therefore we know G-d in a deeper sense, when we connect with him through this world.
I also find purpose, and Judaism recognizes it aswell, in the beauty of other cultures, and religions. But they all must adhere to the 7 laws of Noah. I know of many groups in America, Native americans, Cherokee, who embrace the 7 laws of Noach and revere and study the Holy Torah. But they also follow the teachings of their ancestors and forefathers, and G-d wouldnt want anything less. Likewise, in China, with their beuatiful and peaceful Taosim; Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam etc. Imagine this was Christianiy or Islams view. Because it isnt, you know what their divine 'mission' is all about. Turning all the rest of us into them. Forced assimilation. Judaism calls for nothing else but the moral acknowledgement of the 7 laws of noah, which if you look it up at wikipedia, are laws recognized by many other religious traditions, For instance, the leader of Israels Druze population, signed a document acknowledging that the Druze population will follow G-ds 7 laws. Representatives from Buddhist, Hindu and Taoist groups, have also come to Jerusalem to make known their allegiance to the 7 laws. These are actual, real laws given to mankind. Only Judaism has committed themselves to following them and hence the great aggression the nations, the western aristocratic elite, have historically held towards Judaism. Also, Another big figure who has publically acknowledged the 7 noahide laws, is Adnan Oktar, a very well known Islamic Scholar and spiritual leader from Turkey Harun Haya. Additionally, Education day in the USA is built around the 7 laws of Noah.
Heres an excerpt from Adman Oktars interview with some represenatives of the renwed Jewish Sanhedrin
"This is very excellent. As you know, and may Allah forbid, some Christians regard Muslims as unbelievers. But as a difference, Jews regard Muslims as muminun and believers. There are seven laws, as you know, to being one of the People of Noah. These are beliefs also accepted by Muslims, such as that you must not kill, you must not commit adultery and you must not worship false idols. In those terms, there is an excellent union between us, insha'Allah. They are also a community descended from the Prophet Abraham (pbuh). They are the descendants of the Prophets.In that respect, they are entrusted to us by Allah. The sunnah of our Prophet tells us to love, be affectionate toward and watch over and protect the People of the Book. And that is how our Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) behaved. We also feel love and affection for them. Insha'Allah, all states will be independent in the time of the Turkish-Islamic Union. There will be the state of Israel, and so will the state of Syria, the state of Iraq, they will all be independent, but they will love one another very strongly with a spiritual bond, a bond of brotherhood. Masha’Allah"
This may sound like silly nonsense buts it very real, and there is an esoteric wisdom which justifies its truth. The above tried to explain that. And all those above cases prove that its an idea taken very seriously by more than just the Jews. What could possibly be wrong with any of those laws? Theyre spiritual laws which all mankind should seek to follow, with fait and simplicity. In addition to this, every religion, and tradition has its own path to know G-d. Its own language, culture music and way with connecting with G-d. All thats needed, is humility, and submission to the divine will embodied in these 7 laws.
edit on 28-11-2010 by dontreally because: (no reason given)
edit on 28-11-2010 by dontreally
because: (no reason given)
BTW, i read all you wrote.
My problem is that you talk of Judaism, and the above belief system i outlined, as comparable to orthodox christian views.
Have you studied kabbalistic thought, from an orthodox perspective?
Judaism has always 'thought' (that is, understood) G-d to be panentheistic; that is, both in the world (all phenomena is an expression of him) and beyond the world. The former is 'YHVH" and the latter "EHYEH". This is refered to in the Talmud as "G-d is the place of the world, but the world is not his place". In kabbalistic thought, this world came about after a 'tzimtzum'. If you look at any appliance, you can see a symbol of it. A line, entering a circle. The circle constitutes the 'void', the empty space which G-d created by contracting his infinite light and creating an open space, devoid, as it seems, of his presence. The line signifies his power to 'create'. He is beyond this entire structure. Buddhist, and other pagan cosmologies, only acknowledge the line and circle, as well as the infinite light (we see this in zoroastrian thought as Ahura Mazda) which encompasses both. But this infinite level, does not relate with mankind, and as you said "is irrelevant". G-d overturned this perception, when he gave man the Torah. The will symbolizes the 'irrational', ie; the paradoxial nature of reality. Us performing certain behaviors, which in our finite dualistic minds, can be refuted using logic, transcend the lower 'levels' that self consciousness creates. The very act of commitment and performance of laws, binds the infinite - the irrational, with with the finite, the rational. The will of G-d therefore becomes manifest in human reality by us performing his will. This eliminates the paradox and infact unites it, in a way much more intimate than anything in other religious traditions. This world doesnt have to contradict the higher world. This world can be USED to supplement the will of the soul, which is to serve and know its source, G-d.
Ultimately. Judaism answers the question of how did we get here. We most certainly didnt create ourselves, nor have we always existed. There was a time of creation, as the big bang theory of physics indicates. This world came from nothing, and became something. That 'creator' obviously cannot be understood at all. The most we can know of him is his will, and the physical and spiritual worlds he created.
My problem is that you talk of Judaism, and the above belief system i outlined, as comparable to orthodox christian views.
Have you studied kabbalistic thought, from an orthodox perspective?
Judaism has always 'thought' (that is, understood) G-d to be panentheistic; that is, both in the world (all phenomena is an expression of him) and beyond the world. The former is 'YHVH" and the latter "EHYEH". This is refered to in the Talmud as "G-d is the place of the world, but the world is not his place". In kabbalistic thought, this world came about after a 'tzimtzum'. If you look at any appliance, you can see a symbol of it. A line, entering a circle. The circle constitutes the 'void', the empty space which G-d created by contracting his infinite light and creating an open space, devoid, as it seems, of his presence. The line signifies his power to 'create'. He is beyond this entire structure. Buddhist, and other pagan cosmologies, only acknowledge the line and circle, as well as the infinite light (we see this in zoroastrian thought as Ahura Mazda) which encompasses both. But this infinite level, does not relate with mankind, and as you said "is irrelevant". G-d overturned this perception, when he gave man the Torah. The will symbolizes the 'irrational', ie; the paradoxial nature of reality. Us performing certain behaviors, which in our finite dualistic minds, can be refuted using logic, transcend the lower 'levels' that self consciousness creates. The very act of commitment and performance of laws, binds the infinite - the irrational, with with the finite, the rational. The will of G-d therefore becomes manifest in human reality by us performing his will. This eliminates the paradox and infact unites it, in a way much more intimate than anything in other religious traditions. This world doesnt have to contradict the higher world. This world can be USED to supplement the will of the soul, which is to serve and know its source, G-d.
Ultimately. Judaism answers the question of how did we get here. We most certainly didnt create ourselves, nor have we always existed. There was a time of creation, as the big bang theory of physics indicates. This world came from nothing, and became something. That 'creator' obviously cannot be understood at all. The most we can know of him is his will, and the physical and spiritual worlds he created.
edit on 28-11-2010 by dontreally
because: (no reason given)
reply to post by dontreally
Well I am not sure if you are responding to me, but I too have read all of what you have posted, although you seem to keep moving from one subject to another. You said Buddhism resembled nihilism, and I tried to offer you proof it doesn't. Now if you want to confirm to me that Judaism holds the truth you are looking for, then by all means go ahead and do so, but this is not why I responded to you. In fact, I know very little about Judaism and have no set opinion either way about it. From what you wrote it sounds very interesting. Still however, to me the question or belief of a creator being, or of the origin of the Universe, is not something I care to ponder very deeply upon as those are things that require an extrodinary amount of faith upon what others have spoken to be true, not what I have experienced. On the other hand, suffering is very real to me as I experience it every day in many forms, and the path to the cessation of that suffering is also very real to me as I have experienced its reality through meditation and other practices. So in the end I am not here to debate whether or not there is a creator being, or whether or not Judaism (or any other religion) knows what "it" wants/expects, I only came here to clarify the misconceptions you and others had of Buddhisms philosophy.
Peace be with you...
Well I am not sure if you are responding to me, but I too have read all of what you have posted, although you seem to keep moving from one subject to another. You said Buddhism resembled nihilism, and I tried to offer you proof it doesn't. Now if you want to confirm to me that Judaism holds the truth you are looking for, then by all means go ahead and do so, but this is not why I responded to you. In fact, I know very little about Judaism and have no set opinion either way about it. From what you wrote it sounds very interesting. Still however, to me the question or belief of a creator being, or of the origin of the Universe, is not something I care to ponder very deeply upon as those are things that require an extrodinary amount of faith upon what others have spoken to be true, not what I have experienced. On the other hand, suffering is very real to me as I experience it every day in many forms, and the path to the cessation of that suffering is also very real to me as I have experienced its reality through meditation and other practices. So in the end I am not here to debate whether or not there is a creator being, or whether or not Judaism (or any other religion) knows what "it" wants/expects, I only came here to clarify the misconceptions you and others had of Buddhisms philosophy.
Peace be with you...
reply to post by harvib
People are only as good as the organizations in which they operate. In other words, the Catholic Chruch has lots of very good people who follow the teaching of Jesus, but the organizations are corrupted by very bad people within them. The Buddists have a great message of peace and love by they have corrupted people within their religion, too. We know all about corruption in Christian organization while pretending none exists in Buddist organizations. That is a lie.
In truth, there is no human organization - religous or secular - that is not corrupted by the bad people within them.
People are only as good as the organizations in which they operate. In other words, the Catholic Chruch has lots of very good people who follow the teaching of Jesus, but the organizations are corrupted by very bad people within them. The Buddists have a great message of peace and love by they have corrupted people within their religion, too. We know all about corruption in Christian organization while pretending none exists in Buddist organizations. That is a lie.
In truth, there is no human organization - religous or secular - that is not corrupted by the bad people within them.
Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy
reply to post by dontreally
Well I am not sure if you are responding to me, but I too have read all of what you have posted, although you seem to keep moving from one subject to another. You said Buddhism resembled nihilism, and I tried to offer you proof it doesn't. Now if you want to confirm to me that Judaism holds the truth you are looking for, then by all means go ahead and do so, but this is not why I responded to you. In fact, I know very little about Judaism and have no set opinion either way about it. From what you wrote it sounds very interesting. Still however, to me the question or belief of a creator being, or of the origin of the Universe, is not something I care to ponder very deeply upon as those are things that require an extrodinary amount of faith upon what others have spoken to be true, not what I have experienced. On the other hand, suffering is very real to me as I experience it every day in many forms, and the path to the cessation of that suffering is also very real to me as I have experienced its reality through meditation and other practices. So in the end I am not here to debate whether or not there is a creator being, or whether or not Judaism (or any other religion) knows what "it" wants/expects, I only came here to clarify the misconceptions you and others had of Buddhisms philosophy.
Peace be with you...
The creator issue though is a question ive always wanted to discuss with a buddhist. Ive discussed it before with a buddhist friend i have, but she didnt defend her argument very well.
In anycase, my faith isnt a 'blind' faith. Yes, the theory kabbalah posits is very intellectually appealing and persuasive, but ultimately, the Torah and the Hebrew language is what convinced me of its divinity. Hebrew, as a language is simply wonderous. Apt that Ivri (Hebrew) literally means "i will pass", ie; this language enables me to pass through this world.
The Sages of the Judaism say Hebrew was the language G-d used to create the world. that the language itself constitutes the base elements of creation (22 elements, plus 10 sefirot = 32 paths of wisdom. Notice that our culture refers to the extra two teeth, which bring the number to 32, as 'wisdom teeth'). There are many amazing gematrias that show this. Lashon HaKodesh has the same numerical value as "Safat Echat", as in, the world was of "one language", mentioned in Genesis. This one language was the very thing that enabled the people to build the tower of babel and challenge G-d. In other words, Hebrew is the very essenc of the spiritual universe, contracted into human language. It is, so to speak, the mind of G-d.
This is the determing factor in my belief. My 'faith' than becomes a rational belief. And emuna (Hebrew word often translated as 'faith') more properly means, faithfulness. Like when you know theres something you shouldnt do. Do you honor that knowledge, and restrain yourself? That is the question Judaism addresses. Self discipline.
I know Buddhism is great and honestly i find many of its concepts very beautiful. I really do hope all people can find the peace they seeek in their life, whether that be through buddhism, taoism or some other religion. But my knowledge of Judaism has forced me to acknowledge another side. That G-d may infact exist and the Jewish people could be the living expression of his will to the rest of mankind. Some people are offended by this idea, and i can understand. However, if you met a real, G-d fearing pious Jew. You cannot say this man does not fear G-d, and that he does not sacrifice every last ounce of Ego to perform his will, and inject into this lower reality and air of holiness and divinity. To completely, and utterly not only overcome, but TRANSFORM the nature of the physical, (whose nature is to conceal ) to reveal G-ds glory (that is, the glory of his existence in physical reality). The greatest Jewish leaders live a life, daily, where they experience G-d in a wonderously palpable way in their physical life. Us other, lowly people, affected by the will of the body, cannot completely overcome ourselves. We are constantly immersed in our animal emotions, and it takes great discipline (Hence torah and commandments) to change ourselves. So. Ive seen with my own eyes the reality of the Jewish soul, and its true sincerity in what it believes. Ive also been edified of its inner wisdom, which is sometimes simply amazing (see Sefer Yetzirah). So, ive chosen to believe, and have faith, that Judaism is the real deal. This also explains the persecution theyve deal with throughout history. They seek to follow the creator, while the pagan aristocratic elite, want to create the world in their own image; or, said differently, a world where the will of G-d is made irrelevant (this was hinted at in the movie Avatar. Where G-ds name, the tetragrammaton, was permuted into a FEMININE name - implying the separation of the physical, the feminine, from the masculine, G-d. YHWH was permuted to become HYWH - pronounced as . There are also 12 possible permutations of the name YHVH. This one corresponds to the sign of Aquarius - an obvious reference to the age of aqurius, which so many gnostics etc are awaiting)
Aside from that. Good luck. I really hope i havent come off as insulting or anything. I really do not reject other religions and i do not support the premise of this thread - that buddhism is the source of the evil in this world. What i do believe is it has a certain moral laxity in that it doesnt deal with the question of an obligation. In that sense, it can appeal to my mind, and my heart, but ultimately i have to be willing to accept its premise. There ARE other, left hand strains of buddhism .And these paths are aswell called Buddhism. In some way, the implications of the Buddahs base teachings makes room for a antinomian philosophical position.
reply to post by sara123123
I agree 100%. These issues of corruption are an inherit problem of the human mind as a whole throughout humanity, and they are not merely subject to only one group or another.
Dontreally:
Again, I am happy you have found something that interests you, especially something that comforts you. However, there are two things you've said that I would like to address.
1. That Jews are solely the 'chosen' people of humanity. This not only creates a sense of arrogance and superiority that breeds conflict throughout the world, but it also breeds a sense of privilage which always blinds one from observing the full scope of reality.
2. That you have a concreted your beliefs after learning the Torah and Hebrew language. Becoming strongly attached to beliefs is dangerous, especially those that you have gained from other peoples influence, because they create a 'box' for your mind that is very difficult to see through. A truly wise man will allow beliefs to come and go like the flow of a river, only holding on to what he has experienced for himself.
As far as debating the existence of God with a Buddhist, you are sure to never get what satisfies you as a worthy debate. Here is an article that may interest you about such a topic. Budda's view of God
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Link.
I agree 100%. These issues of corruption are an inherit problem of the human mind as a whole throughout humanity, and they are not merely subject to only one group or another.
Dontreally:
Again, I am happy you have found something that interests you, especially something that comforts you. However, there are two things you've said that I would like to address.
1. That Jews are solely the 'chosen' people of humanity. This not only creates a sense of arrogance and superiority that breeds conflict throughout the world, but it also breeds a sense of privilage which always blinds one from observing the full scope of reality.
2. That you have a concreted your beliefs after learning the Torah and Hebrew language. Becoming strongly attached to beliefs is dangerous, especially those that you have gained from other peoples influence, because they create a 'box' for your mind that is very difficult to see through. A truly wise man will allow beliefs to come and go like the flow of a river, only holding on to what he has experienced for himself.
As far as debating the existence of God with a Buddhist, you are sure to never get what satisfies you as a worthy debate. Here is an article that may interest you about such a topic. Budda's view of God
Pressed further, the Buddha is said to have explained that dwelling on such a question is not conducive to the elimination of suffering, which was the sole purpose of his teaching. He asked whether, if we had been shot with a poisoned arrow, we would want to know who had fired it, why, and what type of bow was used, before deciding to have it removed? "If the person who was shot were to seek the answers to all these questions," he told the monk Malunkyaputta, "he would be dead before he found them." Touché.
edit on 29-11-2010 by LifeIsEnergy because: (no reason given)
edit on 29/11/2010 by ArMaP because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy
reply to post by sara123123
I agree 100%. These issues of corruption are an inherit problem of the human mind as a whole throughout humanity, and they are not merely subject to only one group or another.
Dontreally:
Again, I am happy you have found something that interests you, especially something that comforts you. However, there are two things you've said that I would like to address.
1. That Jews are solely the 'chosen' people of humanity. This not only creates a sense of arrogance and superiority that breeds conflict throughout the world, but it also breeds a sense of privilage which always blinds one from observing the full scope of reality.
2. That you have a concreted your beliefs after learning the Torah and Hebrew language. Becoming strongly attached to beliefs is dangerous, especially those that you have gained from other peoples influence, because they create a 'box' for your mind that is very difficult to see through. A truly wise man will allow beliefs to come and go like the flow of a river, only holding on to what he has experienced for himself.
As far as debating the existence of God with a Buddhist, you are sure to never get what satisfies you as a worthy debate. Here is an article that may interest you about such a topic. Budda's view of God
Pressed further, the Buddha is said to have explained that dwelling on such a question is not conducive to the elimination of suffering, which was the sole purpose of his teaching. He asked whether, if we had been shot with a poisoned arrow, we would want to know who had fired it, why, and what type of bow was used, before deciding to have it removed? "If the person who was shot were to seek the answers to all these questions," he told the monk Malunkyaputta, "he would be dead before he found them." Touché.
edit on 29-11-2010 by LifeIsEnergy because: (no reason given)
I sort of addressed your 1st point earlier
- Jews were given a priestly, inward focused role, whereas the 6 + billions Gentiles, who contstitute the majority of humanity, were created to 'adorn' the Tree of Life. To be outward focused, to developed this physical world and bring G-d into it. Depending on ones perspective, being a Bnei Noach is even more desirable, because were granted greater flexibility and freedom from regiment. Whereas a Jew has to seriously focus himself to an incredible degree to perperly perform each of the 613 laws. But at the same time, these actions draw down a level of bliss and blessing that the effort is well worth the the effort. So, each is good in his place. If one wants to enter the covenant, and become a Jew, he may do so. So theres no 'superiority' in the Jewish position. Only a role. A priestly caste, devoted to many commandments, and a humanity, who serves G-d in their own unique station, accorded the same rights to seek a living, have a family and serve G-d. The nation of america, by the way, was founded on the Noahide Laws, and the concept of a representative government, a republic, is hinted at in the story of Jethros advice to moses on how to run the people (he essentially says, appoint reprtesentatives for the 'little things' ie; local issues, and the big things they'll come to you "national issues". This is a representative, non centralized government)
Another challenge, which G-ds gives both the Jew and Gentile is humility. That is the quintessential expression of soul. When a Jew can look at his role as a means to serve G-d, and thank G-d for that, without vauting his position as something superior, than a gentile, than hes overcome a great challenge - arrogance and the desire to disparage. Many true Rabbis who are pushing this Noahide idea have been incredible examples of humility. Whether its Jew or Gentile, they have to respect the person theyre involved with ,and they have to show them love and compassion. Its a MITZVAH, Conversely, only a coarse and spiritually immature Jew would pride himself and vaunt his superiority because hes a Jew.
likewise, a Gentile has to see his relationship in a comparable way to how we would view a leader. A government may lead, but their purpose is to serve US. Likewise, the Jewish people were accorded this special role, not for simply G-d and themselves, but to serve ALL mankind, as priests. A gentile whos uncomfortable with that reality can either, convert, and enter the covenant, and thus take upon himself many many more mitzvot, or, realize that this inclination to be jealous, and dislike, is his own challenge. We ALL have different stations in life whether we like or not. Different roles doesnmt mean G-d loves a Jew more than a Gentile, and in fact, i once thought that long ago when i mentioned that to a Rabbi, and he corrected me and told me that that isnt a authentic Jewish view. G-d loves all people, and all things, equally. Hes just given different places in life to different people. Some, those who arequite lowly, even among Gentiles, can give G-d much greater pleasure that a Jew who is lax and doesnt pour his heart into his service. Sincerity is all thats needed.
2 - to answer question number 2, id like to flip that back towards you. How is itmy beliefs are "fixed" but yours arent. Doesnt an existentialism, like which you describe, itself proscribe the possibility of it being wrong? For instance. We know that there can be only one truth and an infinite number of lies. ex. This table is black, but i can say its purple, green, and elephant, tape worm, etc. I can say millions of wrong things, but theres only 1 right. Judaisms belief is that G-d created this world, as a means to interact with us. Judaism teaches that G-d created the universe because he wanted to share his good with another. In himself he was all there is, He created another world, within himself, created a concept of void, and darkness, and evil and lies, just so he could bring about a SELF consciousn creature, who could know G-d, as somethig other, but at the same time understand G-d as the very source of his being. G-d wanted this created being, to come to this understanding through his OWN effort. ultimately, G-d is running the show, but paradoxically, we have the complete power of choice to either come to know him, or continue on in our ignorance. So, when we achieve G-d, that is, the true Good(the english phenomena is hardly a coinicidence. God is good, hence the extra vowel, symbolizes what G-d does), we will become masters of the good we have won. The good becomes its own reward. In the deepest possible sense, this means nature itself will no longer limit us in any way. Neither spiritually, nor physically (as both worlds are bound together)..
This seems like a very intuitively true and natural belief. It deals with the only true reality, G-d, nd brings him into this mundane world.
My example above of 1 truth and a million lies could be restated as a million religions but only 1 true one. Or conversely, in your language, everything is true, and nothing false. You trivialize the objective reality that a ball is a ball, a tree a tree and a woman a woman. Hebrew gives names to these realities, which reflect their spiritual purpose and meaning as they exist to us. In other words, this world all has great meaning. The tree, the Dog, the sky. Each thing is a living symbol of G-ds truth and glory. For us to use these things as a way to connect with G-d, seems hardly like a fixed belief, but a very natural, and practical way to engage divinity in everyday life.
edit on 29-11-2010 by dontreally because: (no
reason given)
reply to post by dontreally
Thank you for clarifying #1 for me.
As far as #2, I try hard not to hold on to any beliefs, but rather just experience things. We all suffer, that is a fact, not a belief. Again, I do not want to debate the existence of a creator being, that is something that I do not feel I have the ability nor the need to come to a conclusion upon. I reject the notion that I should believe something because another has said they have experienced it as true, I must experience it myself as true, and none of my experiences in life have lead me to come to a conclusion either way, that "he" exists or "he" doesn't exist. What is the point of adhering to a belief that you cannot, or at least have not, experienced for yourself as being true? Especially when you can live the same virtuous and wise life as you have described without concerning yourself with such ideas?
Thank you for clarifying #1 for me.
As far as #2, I try hard not to hold on to any beliefs, but rather just experience things. We all suffer, that is a fact, not a belief. Again, I do not want to debate the existence of a creator being, that is something that I do not feel I have the ability nor the need to come to a conclusion upon. I reject the notion that I should believe something because another has said they have experienced it as true, I must experience it myself as true, and none of my experiences in life have lead me to come to a conclusion either way, that "he" exists or "he" doesn't exist. What is the point of adhering to a belief that you cannot, or at least have not, experienced for yourself as being true? Especially when you can live the same virtuous and wise life as you have described without concerning yourself with such ideas?
edit on 29-11-2010 by LifeIsEnergy because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by dontreally
The creator issue though is a question ive always wanted to discuss with a buddhist. Ive discussed it before with a buddhist friend i have, but she didnt defend her argument very well.
Well, you certainly won't get any arguments from me. However, though the Buddha himself had better things to do than indulge in speculative discussion and debate about the existence of God, that certainly hasn't stood in the way of Buddhists who came after him.
Just to give you a flavor of the sort of thing you would encounter in the writings of Buddhist commentators when they discuss the existence of God, I recall a remark made by Stephen Hawking, I believe, when he was asked once about God and remarked that there didn't seem to be room for him in the universe. In other words all the space was already occupied.
That sounds glib but it isn't.
Buddhist philosophers in centuries past debated such things ad nauseum with their Hindu philosophical sparring partners. (In that world, big league philosophy was being practiced only by Buddhists and Hindus. Nobody else mattered.)
The chief cutting tool of Buddhist philosophy is the so called madhyamaka. I won't go into detail about madhyamaka style arguments, because I'm not really sharp about this stuff anymore, not having studied, discussed, etc., these things for many years. Suffice it to say, madhyamaka arguments function by driving the opponent's position into self-contradiction and hence absurdity, the reductio ad absurdum. It is truly amazing how much mileage they get following this procedure.
The most important Buddhist text on this subject is the mulhamadymakacarika sutra. It explains the principles of the argument and then turns this weapon on some well known (at the time) Hindu (and Jain?) philosophical positions.
I'm really not competent to say much of anything on this entire subject but a modern day approach to metaphysics, which is similar in spirit to the attitudes of the Buddhists toward metaphysical matter is found in A. J. Ayer's book Language, Truth and Logic, which brings a linguistic and logical criticism to many metaphysical positions and demonstrates them to be devoid of meaning.
In Buddhism, I believe similarly, the madhyamikas attempt to tie God up in the contradictions of his own characteristics, demonstrating that such a being is internally inconsistent, self contradictory and therefore is a fantasy.
Believers in God might reply, "Well, God is beyond ordinary logic and can indeed contradict his own nature, if he so desires. He is not subject to self-contradiction."
Buddhists would say, "That's the fantasy."
edit on 29-11-2010 by ipsedixit because: (no reason given)
reply to post by rileytardell
I hate to point this out, but Christians are really about the last people on the planet that need to be talking about professional perverts. Between the pedophile priests of the Catholics and the prostitute-visiting preachers of the Protestants, it's a double-whammy for Christians.
I hate to point this out, but Christians are really about the last people on the planet that need to be talking about professional perverts. Between the pedophile priests of the Catholics and the prostitute-visiting preachers of the Protestants, it's a double-whammy for Christians.
I knew a Jew who had become a Buddhist monk, years ago. This subject matter came up in conversation once and he was very casual about it. He said,
"People who believe in God would say that Buddhism is within nature while God is outside nature."
He made an excellent point. The only problem with this point is that, while it is a situation conceivable in the imagination, it is difficult to see how any reliable information whatsoever could be known about anything outside nature.
Enter the various authority figures, who of necessity, appear as spokespersons for the deity. After that, things get increasingly dodgy.
Buddha left his followers a legacy of a very efficacious method of meditation. He did so in an attempt to relieve suffering. He refrained from entering into discussion of various thorny philosophical problems, including the existence of God. I wonder what his reasons were. He seems to say that such discussion should be prioritized below the effort to relieve suffering. I wonder if he knew that such discussion can actually cause suffering.
Undoubtedly he did.
He made an excellent point. The only problem with this point is that, while it is a situation conceivable in the imagination, it is difficult to see how any reliable information whatsoever could be known about anything outside nature.
Enter the various authority figures, who of necessity, appear as spokespersons for the deity. After that, things get increasingly dodgy.
Buddha left his followers a legacy of a very efficacious method of meditation. He did so in an attempt to relieve suffering. He refrained from entering into discussion of various thorny philosophical problems, including the existence of God. I wonder what his reasons were. He seems to say that such discussion should be prioritized below the effort to relieve suffering. I wonder if he knew that such discussion can actually cause suffering.
Undoubtedly he did.
edit on 29-11-2010 by ipsedixit because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by ipsedixit
I knew a Jew who had become a Buddhist monk, years ago. This subject matter came up in conversation once and he was very casual about it. He said, "People who believe in God would say that Buddhism is within nature while God is outside nature."
He made an excellent point. The only problem with this point is that, while it is a situation conceivable in the imagination, it is difficult to see how any reliable information whatsoever could be known about anything outside nature.
Enter the various authority figures, who of necessity, appear as spokespersons for the deity. After that, things get increasingly dodgy.
Buddha left his followers a legacy of a very efficacious method of meditation. He did so in an attempt to relieve suffering. He refrained from entering into discussion of various thorny philosophical problems, including the existence of God. I wonder what his reasons were. He seems to say that such discussion should be prioritized below the effort to relieve suffering. I wonder if he knew that such discussion can actually cause suffering.
Undoubtedly he did.
edit on 29-11-2010 by ipsedixit because: (no reason given)
He must not know much about Judaism than.
Judaism believes G-d is both within, AND beyond nature.
Infact the two main names used for G-d in the Torah, Elohim and YHVH symbolize these two levels. The former is Natural, law, and expresses the quality of limitation. Whereas the name YHVH symbolizes the miraculous source of reality. The name itself contain the word "Was, Is and Will be" and its Hebrew root literally means "being". Elohim conversely has the Gematria of 86. This is the also the gematria of nature "Hateva"m which also means 'word' (ie; the spoken word of G-d, which appears to us as existing separately from G-d; but in truth, IS him). Both nature and all created, things, express the quality of 'limitation', which derives from the archetype of the name Elohim. Amazingly, this is also the same gematria as "vessel of YHVH" - Kli YHVH = 86.
Judaism has never believed differently. G-d is both in and outside nature, or 'reality'. But it also maitains that "G-d is the place of the world, but the world is not his place". (statement from he Talmud, which, unlike what people think, is based entirely on the kabbalah - Judaisms mystical tradition) G-d created the world, but he is not contained by it. And only faith, a superational function, can connect with that reality.
edit
on 29-11-2010 by dontreally because: (no reason given)
reply to post by dontreally
In religion people largely believe what they want to believe. I think Buddha was right to avoid the God question.
In religion people largely believe what they want to believe. I think Buddha was right to avoid the God question.
Originally posted by ipsedixit
reply to post by dontreally
In religion people largely believe what they want to believe. I think Buddha was right to avoid the God question.
Well, again, Judaism is not like other religions.
It cannot be compared to peoples conventiona; understanding of xtianity. Judaism is actually, deep, and already possesses the pantheistic understanding, that G-d is present in this world, and indeed, this world exists within him. But he is also beyond it.
Often when i mention Gematria, i notice that you buddhist types really arent impressed by it.
The Sefer Yetzriah explains that the 3 qualities of language - pronounciation, shape of the letter and its gematria, correspond to 3 different dimensions of reality. The Shape of the letter corresponds to "time", the gematria to "space" and the pronounctiation to "soul" (psyche)
In any case, the gematria of Hebrew words refer to the archetypal quanitity (you can read ML Von Franz 'number and archetype' to understand the importance of number in the human psyche). Words which share the same gematria, therefore share some intrinsic relationship with each other.
This is literally present throughout the Hebrew language, in a way that is simply beyond comprehension. Then you add the grammar and hebrew roots, and frankly it is simply impossible for any creature to have created it. This phenomena doesn't exist in other languages, and hence Hebrew is called "Lashon HaKodesh", the holy tongue. This word also shares the same gematria as 'safat echat' - "one language".
Additionally, in occult thought, Hebrew is used as the means to contact the primordial powers of creation (that is, archetypal forces in the world of creation).
Like i said earlier. There is faith, but its of a rational nature, in that we have much to work from to form a rational belief, rather than a completely blind faith (which in many instances in life, is also needed)
A beautiful idea i was reading yesterday is the comparison of Truth and faith to the sun and the moon. Truth, is the sun, and the moon, faith. In order for one to recieve higher levels of truth, theres always a degree of faith needed. So the Torah actually refers to faith - emuna, as a window.
We all know that if it werent for faith, mankind would never have progressed. Nothing can be invented, and nothing can be discovered, without a degree of rational belief along the way. The faith therefore leads to a truth, or principle. When one reaches that level, he goes higher, which requires yet another degree of 'faith'. This is the truly the nature of discovery.
This is an idea of constant progression. The ladder of Jacob has no ceiling, its a constant 'run and return' as mentioned in Ezekiel. The kabbalah describes mans spiritual growth as being like a spiral. Cyclical, but constantly ascending upwards (despite those temporary setbacks)
edit on
30-11-2010 by dontreally because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by ipsedixit
reply to post by dontreally
In religion people largely believe what they want to believe. I think Buddha was right to avoid the God question.
Well he didnt avoid it.....effectivly..he has become one.
God being -the/a being, entity, presence or object of veneration, reverence or spirital worship.
Looking at Buddhism today...thats what I see.
Originally posted by Rosha
Originally posted by ipsedixit
reply to post by dontreally
In religion people largely believe what they want to believe. I think Buddha was right to avoid the God question.
Well he didnt avoid it.....effectivly..he has become one.
God being -the/a being, entity, presence or object of veneration, reverence or spirital worship.
Looking at Buddhism today...thats what I see.
Thats essentially what it is.
In essence, all belief is defined by the object of the belief. In Judaism, all beliefs that limit the true oneness of G-d are called idolatrous. Thats what the bible means by idolatry. Buddah, although a very lofty concept, with its spiritual details, is still a smaller vision of creation.
That isnt to say though that there arent any good buddhists.Thats not true and that what ultimately matters. But aspects of their belief are idolatrous, having image and statues they worship and burn incense before, is idolatrous. Its serving a LESSER power than G-d, and thats what Judaism, and the Torah and the Bible defines as idolatry.
Its not right when you get down to it. Not holding to any belief or more so accepting everything in a relative way, and each experience as having meaning, without making a distinction and discrimination between the pure and impure, between good and evil, is miopoic. Because yes, in truth, those thinngs do not exist. At our level, were contained by them, and its noble to want to abrogate suffering. So seeing everything as one, and the same, manifest in myriad forms, is a good thing, and indeed, Judaism looks at the world this way. But at an even deeper level, Judaism, or moreso, the Torah answers the deepest question of all. Why are we here? Whats the meaning and purpose of the world? Purpose is meaning, and meaning has to be found in microcosm in order for one to realize himself, and likewise, meaning exists macrocosmically. Hebrew and the Torah contain the secrets and meaning of why this world was created the way it was. Why G-d created duality and how that was Necessary to create a self conscious being. Evil was a byproduct of creation whicvh G-d had prepared man to perfecrt. In other words, G-d creates the world, and man helps complete it.
edit on 30-11-2010 by
dontreally because: (no reason given)
edit on 30-11-2010 by dontreally because: (no reason given)
reply to post by dontreally
Again, do not pick one thing out just to blast Buddhism on. Buddha never said idolize me and build statues of me, in fact he remained a begger and homeless his entire life after his enlightenment, but still people could not help themselves in doing so. Just as Christians build massive Church's, carry crosses, and idolize Jesus even though he said not to. Just as Jews have idolized their "sacred holy home land", the Temple in Jerusalem, and the "Western Wall" even though their only true path to God is through the story's and laws of the Torah and practice there of.
I have been studying about Judaism lately for a class I am taking, and I must say they have had an interesting story to say the least. From exile to exile, from war to war, they by far have gone through the toughest times of any group of individuals on earth in my opinion. And their valor and strive to remain true to their principles is something I truly respect. However one might argue that there rigidness to not conform to others may be the leading cause of their troubles. That is not to say I believe they should of conformed or sacrificed their beliefs though. But from what I can tell, the only time they have willfully integrated with others, besides in Alexandria under Alexander the Great, is because they had no other choice after being exiled from one place to another. Its a very complex issue though and I plan on writing more on this subject in a few weeks.
Again, do not pick one thing out just to blast Buddhism on. Buddha never said idolize me and build statues of me, in fact he remained a begger and homeless his entire life after his enlightenment, but still people could not help themselves in doing so. Just as Christians build massive Church's, carry crosses, and idolize Jesus even though he said not to. Just as Jews have idolized their "sacred holy home land", the Temple in Jerusalem, and the "Western Wall" even though their only true path to God is through the story's and laws of the Torah and practice there of.
I have been studying about Judaism lately for a class I am taking, and I must say they have had an interesting story to say the least. From exile to exile, from war to war, they by far have gone through the toughest times of any group of individuals on earth in my opinion. And their valor and strive to remain true to their principles is something I truly respect. However one might argue that there rigidness to not conform to others may be the leading cause of their troubles. That is not to say I believe they should of conformed or sacrificed their beliefs though. But from what I can tell, the only time they have willfully integrated with others, besides in Alexandria under Alexander the Great, is because they had no other choice after being exiled from one place to another. Its a very complex issue though and I plan on writing more on this subject in a few weeks.
Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy
reply to post by dontreally
Again, do not pick one thing out just to blast Buddhism on. Buddha never said idolize me and build statues of me, in fact he remained a begger and homeless his entire life after his enlightenment, but still people could not help themselves in doing so. Just as Christians build massive Church's, carry crosses, and idolize Jesus even though he said not to. Just as Jews have idolized their "sacred holy home land", the Temple in Jerusalem, and the "Western Wall" even though their only true path to God is through the story's and laws of the Torah and practice there of.
I have been studying about Judaism lately for a class I am taking, and I must say they have had an interesting story to say the least. From exile to exile, from war to war, they by far have gone through the toughest times of any group of individuals on earth in my opinion. And their valor and strive to remain true to their principles is something I truly respect. However one might argue that there rigidness to not conform to others may be the leading cause of their troubles. That is not to say I believe they should of conformed or sacrificed their beliefs though. But from what I can tell, the only time they have willfully integrated with others, besides in Alexandria under Alexander the Great, is because they had no other choice after being exiled from one place to another. Its a very complex issue though and I plan on writing more on this subject in a few weeks.
There wasnt a time in the last two thousand years, where the exiled Jews of the diaspore didnt wake up, turn towards Jerusalem, the holy mount, and pray to G-d. They did this 3 times a day, and people have the heartlessness to refuse them the right to return to a land where they had 2 kingdoms, lasting over a thousand years.
One thing i truly was touched about Judaism was its sincerity, and simplicity. Theyre not like muslims who are on the whole violent and seek to kill one another (see the #'e, Suffi issues) or christianity with their protestant/catholic issues. Jews truly, and ardently seek peace, within their own communities first, and than with others.
I dont think Jews should change their beliefs. Of course, Jews have always integrated aspects of foreign cultures which they lived in, but only the good parts which they saw as having true worth and value. But not their spirituality, or philosophy. Thats their Torah and Judaism. Thats what this week is about - Haunukah. The Jewish souls rebellion and overcoming of the mentality and philosophy of the western world - symbolized by the Greeks. In Hasmonean times, the greeks saught to inflitrate and contiminate Judaism. They eventually passed a law saying Jews couldnt circumcize their children, or keep Shabbat, or study Torah. They essentially prohibitted Torah, and Judaism. This is how tyrannical and evil the greeks were, and honestly, any G-d fearing person, whether Jewish, Christian or muslim, or some other belief, if they despise the western atheistic, despotic mentality, will also have much respect for the holy day of Haunukah, where the light of Truth overcome the falseness of the western mentality. with its secularism and separation between religious life and social life.
Im not Jewish, but i have an immense respect for Judaism, its philosophy, its sincerity and their simple love and honor for the one G-d, whom they believe in the core of their very being, has protected and guided them throughout the generations, despite the incredible odds against them.
If you want to discover the real depths of Judaism, you should read into Kabbalah and Chaddisut.
I have a collection of books dn this subject of around 100, and i look forward to buy and learn more about it everyday. It gives me such Joy.
I love all religions and all peace loving people. But im also educated to some degree in other beliefs systems. Particularly gnosticism (christianity) and a little bit of eastern thought (ive read atleast 30 book on various Eastern subjects/philosophy) so i have the gist of what they believe. And, i think Judaism is much more general, and thus has a wider look at the world, than Easterners do. An oft used excuse for why Judaism is wrong is because its a 'belief'. But that can be thrown right back. Youre acceptance of everything as it is is also a belief. A natural one. Whereas Judaisms belief is a supernatural one. Torah, its said, is the blue print of reality. If you want to look at it deeper; Torah is the world that doesnt YET exist, but which a spiritual blueprint, in the form of the Hebrew Torah, has been prepared. And now its only awaiting the messianic era for this natural world to be prepared and accept this higher level - Torah. Torah itself means instruction.
Sounds like a strange idea? But once you study it, and realize how incredibly supernatural it is, you will be forced not only to believe it, but passionately defend its merit.
edit on 1-12-2010 by dontreally because: (no reason given)
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