Video: The Ugly Truth...The Ugly American (Highly Disturbing)

reply to post by AgentG


Or a grenade simulator. You can still be harmed by them. And they screw your hearing all up if they go off that close to you. In my mind, it doesnt matter that the object thrown wasnt lethal, it matters that it was pointless and cruel.

This goes to show once again that nothin good ever come from war, only bad, very sad that it has come to this, we have been long over due to get our troops home.

www.youtube.com...

Now this video is very interesting.... shows a very human side to things (in a sense of hiw willingness to admit and talk about this).
Please watch it and give your opinions...

He talks about threat levels in battle and the how they had different ways of dealing with 'who they shot at' depending on the threat level.
Some times they could fire 'at whoever they wanted' if that specific area had been classed as a free fire zone.

He speaks of soldiers firing a grenade at a woman carrying a bag of groceries (trying to bring the US Soldiers some food) amongst other things...

'There was no rule governing who we shot at'...

SO.... if say a town in Iraq/Afghanistan consisted of say 1000 people and say 10 of them were the only people in town who wished anyone any harm i.e the 'terrorist', would this be the right way to deal with them..?

Shooting all the other people in the town if they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time? An unsupecting villager perhaps...

Now imagine this in the United states? Say a dangerous and wanted criminal ran into a middle class neighbourhood (possibly to stay with a relative), would i therefore be right for armed police to shoot anybody out in the streets? Just because they looked similar or dressed similar?

Of course not... but for some reason this rule doesn't apply outside of America.

BUT I am not bashing the soldiers here... It seems they were TOLD to act like this, told to be this menacing.... TOLD to attack the Iraqi villagers who passed through certain checkpoints... Told to kick and punch and hit them with 'anything they had'... TOLD them to shoot 'suspect taxis', innocent or not...

So what is the line between morality and following orders?

Who then should be the one's charged for war crimes?
The younger one's following orders in a confusing environment, commiting these acts of barbarism, or those that TELL them to kill, shoot, beat, rape, bludgeon and shoot?

Some thoughts for you all to digest...

Mr L

[edit on 17-6-2008 by mr-lizard]

reply to post by mr-lizard


From Wikipedia's article on the "Nuremberg Defense,"

en.wikipedia.org...

Thus, under the Nuremberg Principles, "defense of superior orders" is not a defense for war crimes, although it might influence a sentencing authority to lessen the penalty.

"The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him."

Even without the support of this legal precedent, I have to say I personally agree with the principle. Regardless whether all your friends are doing it, or your boss told you to do it, YOU are responsible for your own actions. It seems pretty cut and dried to me.

Some may say "It isnt that easy," but it is just that easy.

Whatever God or Divinity you may happen to believe in, you face them alone. Your boss doesnt give you a note to hand to your God explaining why you did what you did and offering to take the blame. Nor do your friends.

If you have no belief in a God or Divinity, you still have to live with your conscience. At the deepest level of our selves we all know that "so and so made me do it" is a cowardly excuse. No one makes you do anything. You may be afraid of the consequences of non-compliance, and these consequences may be quite real and may range from being teased, beaten up, jailed, to even being killed, but YOU are the one choosing to mistreat others to make your own life easier.

It is a cowards mentality that says, "well, I dont think it is right, but what can I do to change it?" Or, "Well the boss says I have to do _____ when I know it is wrong." A coward or someone who secretly wants to do the action anyway, but doesnt want to take responsibility for it.

reply to post by DimensionalDetective


I love our troops, and our nation. I have to disagree with you though. What would you say if i could show you some of the atrocities that were commited by our soldiers in WWI and WWII. Im talking about gross body mutilations, rapings, and other vile actions. These things happen during war time.

Please don't take that statement as me writing off these actions as acceptable, they are not. As someone else stated, it is mainly due to leadership, or lack thereof.

Thoes same children who were running for the water are the same children who are ordered by their religion to kill all non muslems.

If your best friend was killed in war, you would feel the same way as the american soldiers. As for your obvious hatred of capitalism, i regret you feel that way. Unions preform the same things that "corporations" do, even on larger scales, yet you embrace them.

In short, you are combining multiple things and saying that they are all caused by the same system. Do you seriously believe that corporations are the cause of war crimes? Bush being a war criminal, that would be like charging a parent battery because their child punched someone.

Somehow you are blaming bush for the actions of twenty year olds in a foreign country.

It is very hypocritical for you to blame bush when this has happened hundreds of times before, and yet no one seems to care.



[edit on 18-6-2008 by Bob Sholtz]

What makes you think that they aren't all like that?
Do you really believe they would say they were, knowing what the response would be?
My bet is there are a lot more who partake in this kind of barbarity than not.
Most soldiers are, let's face it, from a poor, and under educated background. By nature they are trained to not think but do.
I think anyone who believes it is a few bad eggs is extremely gullible.
The shots of soldiers being good guy's?
Most likely staged to downplay the other atrocities they are committing on a daily if not hourly basis.

I don't see what all the outrage is about, ok it's not nice but "I was in tears"???? Do me a favour. This kind of thing does happen in all wars. Imagine if somebody had invented the video camera 1000 years ago, the footage would be quiet something i'm sure.

My grandad was a prisoner of war in Syberia, the stories of abuse and torture he told would make your hair stand on end. He came back a broken man. So it's not just an American thing.

reply to post by Hermann


you got a point, when you look at it like that.

BUT, this war is STILL ILLEGAL!!!!

But what was the point of this ILLEGAL war? overthrow Saddam? how long has it been since Saddam was murdered i mean killed i mean executed?? job done. now what?

Bush was in the UK the other day, he's convinced UK and US to deploy EVEN MORE troops... what is going on????

Yes cruelty and war crimes are common during most wars. However the rates of those atrocities DO vary depending on the discipline of each army.

There will always be "rogues" in every form of human society, but different countries, different cultures, families, armies, have different levels of depravity. If the commanders have a strong sense of right and wrong, and they instill that in their troops, incidents like this will be reduced.

Weak moral leadership in times of war is not only a disservice to those living under foreign occupation, but it is also a disservice to the soldiers themselves, their famililes, and the rest of our society. A lot of these soldiers are kids, they will have to live with what they have done for the rest of their lives. They may do it because it seems funny, and because all of the "others" are doing it but when they are back home, when they have kids of their own, when they have time to reflect they could suffer a lot of guilt. Even those that don't care about the abuse of Iraqi's should be smart enough to realize that allowing such abuse creates very messed up abusers and as a society we have to live with them when they come home.

[edit on 18-6-2008 by Sonya610]

From the start, I have not fought in any war. I am sure most of us have not.

We see and judge based on this video and others like it. But what we are missing is a multitude of incidents that would betray/strengthen our opinion of soldiers in war... in any war, in any country.

In regards to the illegal war in Iraq, we do not know what it is to be under those conditions every single minute of every day for years on end. We do not know what it is to be on edge every second, thinking any bystander or any approaching soul could end your life or is hellbent on taking you, and your brotherhood of soldiers with you. We do not know what it is to see your friends/brothers/sisters die. It is hard to imagine the psyche that results from this... utter detachment from what human beings are really supposed to be. They take orders from bosses that take orders from their bosses and so on... we see this video of atrocities and almost forget the good things our soldiers do. Then we see all the shenanigans surrounding the election and we forget that soldiers are STILL there. We forget that this is how every war is... how all sides react.

This is what war does to people. From the beginning of history till today. The only difference is that today we have video cameras to capture these scenes. And we know that what is captured... what is told through stories is only a minute fraction of what really is. We forget that a majority of the soldiers went off to defend this country, and war allowed them to lose their minds... to commit perversions so sickening that we, at home and away from the battle, can only judge what we see.

Those fools in the videos deserve tremendous amounts of punishment. But this is what is happening to ANYBODY and EVERYBODY that is over there, on both sides of the picture. American soldiers are no different from any other soldier. They are all fighting for what they believe in... to protect all they have. And they are ALL losing their minds and sense of grounded humanity.

In every aspect, war, in this day and age, is extremely saddening and disappointing for us as a human race... as a supposed intelligent race capable of evolution through analysis.

If we, the civilians at home, saw ALL that has transpired in all of the wars, we would have more than tears in our eyes... more than shock and disgust and anger within our hearts... we would not be able to forget on a day to day basis. We would not be able to carry on with our minds reset with the latest Iphone update or the latest episode on television under the mindset that we are all just trying to get by.

We say this is how it is, this is how we are... but is it? Are we? Then what of the billions and billions of us who are peaceful?

This is 2008. Nothing has changed. This is the atrocity.

We must find a solution.

And another thing, I had heard about the video of the puppy but never watched it (i have issues with animal abuse). However after seeing it on the video I suspect the story that the puppy was already dead is a lie. It looked like a very young, very alive puppy based on body position. no signs of rigor.

The yelping may have been dubbed in, but the claims "it was already dead" sound like a very convenient cover story.

I believe most of our soldiers are kind to animals, and many relish any contact they can get with the dogs and cats over there, there are many touching stories of soldiers jumping through a lot of hoops to bring home the strays they became attached to, however that video looked legit.

What some people here seem to be missing is that it's not okay to play games with people who've done nothing wrong. It's not okay to scare men who are minding their own business herding their animals. It's not okay to take verbal advantage of people who do not understand what you're saying to them. It's not okay to amuse yourself at the expense of the dignity of others who have done nothing to you.

Again, the moral foundations of these soldiers/marines are poor. The parents are to blame.

Originally posted by Danger Girl
There is A-holes everywhere.
The puppy thrower is getting whats coming to him, he is being brought up on charges. And the grenade throwers have some serious Karma coming to them.
The guys handing out candy or whatever are just being nice.

the guys handing out candy are being nice. you watched this without the volume turned up huh?

Some of you seem to be missing the point. This is not WW1 or WW2. Yes, bad things happen in all wars, but this war should never have happened. All the bad things happening in this war are for naught. Nothing is being accomplished whatsoever, but people are losing their lives, and soldiers are losing their minds, and everything is getting crazier by the minute.
Some in the west have pondered, me included, why Muslims don't do more from within to deal with the terrorists in their midst. I also wonder why Americans don't do more to deal with the terrorism their government and military repeatedly inflicts whenever and wherever they want in the rest of the world.

At the end of the day we can blame the rulers, runners or whatever you want to call them, but as long as there is enough stupid human beings willing to go out n fight for whaetever stupid cause someone promotes we will have wars!

Life is a contest. Wether it's your immune system dealing with pathogens, or tree roots in competition (or cooperation) with soil microbes for nutrients. Cats die without animal protein.

Anyway, illegal war is a silly term. Sure there are some tentative agreements between some countries that might fight in a potential scenario. But the rules are shaky and is really only a way of saying, "if you do this - I'll do this."
And soldiers will be soldiers. Ask any seasoned officer from any army.

The current war in Iraq is not illegal. Unpopular, yes. Saddam was in violation of international agreements. He was violating terms of surrender to the US from the first gulf war. When we realized that pain-in-the-butt radical Islam revolutionaries were serious about striking a blow in the West - it was go time.
An overlooked Iraq development: in the lead up to the war, for the first time Saddam had adopted a secular public relations campaign.
Previously, Saddam had conducted Stalin-esque PR, but realizing the political advantages to being a pro-Arab Muslim hero-type he went full-blown traditional. All religious imagery and rhetoric. A significant departure from his previous persona.

It made us even madder.

Truth. You vote at the check-out counter in the US, not at the polls. Keep track of who's getting your money next time.

reply to post by A life less ordinary


"This goes to show once again that nothin good ever come from war, only bad"

That's a very short-sighted and simplistic way of looking at it. War, is like all things. comprised of both positive and negative repercussions depending on which measure you use to determine it's effects. War has brought us amazing advances in technology which we use every day without much thought to the reason for their invention, or the lineage of what that technology was originally used for. Both your home computer and the internet itself were originally tools of war - but through them, used in peace time, we have brought an explosion of research and knowledge to the world the likes humanity has never seen before. War has driven us to produce safer foods, obtain a better understanding of heath and physiology, and even sent us to the moon. It has also brought us freedoms from tyranny, oppression, and fascism. It has won and secured our rights as humans to be free, free speakers and free thinkers.

War is, inarguably, a terrible thing on any level. But to say that "nothing good" has ever come from war, is just foolish.

Hmmm, looks like this video is getting just the kind of attention it deserves. From both sides I might add. I got a question for any of you.

No matter what country you are from, how many animals do you suppose, are killed by automobiles annually with the same degree of lack of guilt. Sure some may try and brake or avoid the animal. But how many actually stop to see the damage done? How many forget the deed not long after?

I guess what I'm asking is why do I never see any videos of dogs being run down in the street or articles about how many animals die each year? Has anyone ever posted a thread about this here with the same degree of passion? Is it because being in a car removes us from being the "evil sickening animal killers" this video portrays?

And as far as the Good War, Bad War debate. I find it hard to debate those who think that 9-11 never happened or was fabricated by the evil George Bush and his band of merry men! LOL!

Conspiracy breeds contempt! IMO....

i think what that AMERICAN SOLDIER did to that puppy tells me everyfuking thing i need to know about the mindset of people in this world.

utterly utterly cold, calm, evil

this video makes the USA look very very bad.
and lets not twist that last line by mentioning other countries etc.

lets focus 100% on these AMERICAN TROOPS here

disgusting.