Obama's Birth Certificate

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

The people have a right to have all information they deem necessary before casting their votes.

No, they don't. You're not going to vote for him anyway. I am. I don't need to see his birth certificate.

And they have a right to feel it's important.

They have a right to feel whatever they want. That doesn't mean they have a right to invade his privacy.

A potential POTUS definately does NOT have the same privacy rights we ordinary citizens have.

Perhaps not, but you're going to have to show me that the citizenry of the US has a specific right to see his birth certificate before I agree that that particular right of privacy is stripped of him.

When I was 12-years old I signed up to play Little League baseball. Guess what? All the kids had to show their birth certificates to make sure no 13-year olds were trying to cheat and join the younger league.

Same principle applies here. Obama has choosen to sign up to play POTUS. The requirements to be POTUS involve his age and his status as a natural born citizen. By signing up to play POTUS Obama must show his birth certificate just like I had to when I signed up to play Little League baseball.

When a person signs up to play POTUS he agrees that the requirements include proving his age and status as a natural born citizen. I.e., he agrees to give up the rights to any possible privacy regarding these issues because he must document that he meets the Constitutional requirements.

And by the way, please cite any sources you have to make your claim that there is any right of privacy regarding your birth certificate. I think it's incorrect to even make any claims of privacy about this. Otherwise, how could states require parents to even FILE a birth certificate? Wouldn't there be a right of privacy that would protect parents from having to report the birth of a child?

reply to post by LLoyd45


I have never had to supply my birth certificate for a job.

This is just one more ploy to slam Obama over meaningless stuff to distract people from the real issues.

Like the economy and like the war and like the differences between him and McCain's positions.

Originally posted by grover
reply to post by LLoyd45

 

I have never had to supply my birth certificate for a job.

This is just one more ploy to slam Obama over meaningless stuff to distract people from the real issues.

Like the economy and like the war and like the differences between him and McCain's positions.

What you did or didn't have to do when you applied for a job has zero relevance here. I'm not sure why you even mention it.

And the only "slam" at Obama is that he is basing his campaign on being different from the Washington insiders, and that he is a symbol of "change."

He implies repeatedly that his big selling point is that only he has integrity. He implies that Washington politicians who take money from lobbyists do not have integrity because they put the lobbyists goals ahead of the country's.

So if it turns out that his name is really Barry, or he was listed as a muslim at birth, or that his middle name is really Muhammad, it would reflect on his willingness to lie and deceive people, and to cover up the truth. These are the very issues he claims he would never do.

So no, this issue is far from meaningless if it is proven that Obama would repeatedly lie about something so basic as his name or religion just for political expediency.

Originally posted by jamie83
And by the way, please cite any sources you have to make your claim that there is any right of privacy regarding your birth certificate.

If it was a public document, we would have access to it already though the Hawaiian Vital Records Dept. But they won't release it to just anyone. It's a confidential document. If birth certificates were public, identity theft would be rampant!

Just as my medical records are private (but my doctors, insurance company, etc. get to see them), a birth certificate is a personal document. That doesn't mean that NOBODY can see it. We willingly choose to show it to get a passport and for other proof of age (little league and such), but that doesn't mean that they're public records for just ANYONE to see. Or else we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we?

You (the public) can't just demand access to someone else's birth certificate (unless you're a family member or under other specific circumstances). Even if he IS running for president. If he wants to release it for public scrutiny, he can. But he is under no legal obligation to do so. (Unless he's subpoenaed.) He has a right to show his birth certificate to ONLY those who OK his presidential bid. He is not obligated to show it to anyone else.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
You (the public) can't just demand access to someone else's birth certificate (unless you're a family member or under other specific circumstances). Even if he IS running for president. If he wants to release it for public scrutiny, he can. But he is under no legal obligation to do so. (Unless he's subpoenaed.) He has a right to show his birth certificate to ONLY those who OK his presidential bid. He is not obligated to show it to anyone else.

Ok, now I understand your point. That said, I'm not so sure that every states treats birth certificates the same way, or that there is a blanket "right" to privacy protected by federal law that would prohibit states from making birth certificates publicly available.

I know that there are a lot of documents on file in the county where I live that are available to anybody who shows up to look at them. Has it actually been confirmed that Hawaii does not release birth records?

Also, once a documents is in the possession of the state, unless it pertains to national security, I can't see why the people, which in fact ARE the state, do not have a legal right to these documents. They are not medical records per se.

From Hawaii's state website:

What Information You Should Be Prepared to Provide

An applicant/requestor must provide the information needed to 1) establish his/her direct and tangible interest in the record and 2) locate the desired record. This will normally include:

* Applicant's name, address, and telephone number(s);
* Applicant's relationship to the person named on the certificate;
* Reason why you are requesting the certificate;
* Full name(s) as listed on the certificate;
* The certificate’s file number (if known);
* Month, day, and year of the event; and
* City or town and the island where the event occurred.
* For birth certificates, also provide the full name of the father and the full maiden name of the mother.
* If you are applying for a certificate on behalf of someone else, you must provide an original letter signed by that person authorizing the release of their certificate to you.

Source

This is significant in that it is clearly implied that birth certificates are NOT automatically withheld from 3rd parties who request them. It seems if the state of Hawaii thinks you have a "direct and tangible interest" in obtaining a birth certificate they will give you somebody else birth certificate to look at.

So where is the absolute RIGHT of privacy? Apparently there is none.

Originally posted by jamie83
That said, I'm not so sure that every states treats birth certificates the same way, or that there is a blanket "right" to privacy protected by federal law that would prohibit states from making birth certificates publicly available.

It is a state-by-state (and even county-by-county) policy.

I have read on blogs and other sites that people have tried to get his birth certificate from Hawaii and they said that the state of Hawaii only release those records to the individual.

Also, once a documents is in the possession of the state, unless it pertains to national security, I can't see why the people, which in fact ARE the state, do not have a legal right to these documents. They are not medical records per se.

You'll have to take it up with government. I, for one, am glad they don't just release my information to anyone.

Originally posted by grover
I have never had to supply my birth certificate for a job.

I have. And I've had to give my social security number.

But remember, grover, the position of POTUS isn't like working for the local Ice Cream stand. It's a very serious position.

This is just one more ploy to slam Obama over meaningless stuff to distract people from the real issues.

Meaningless to you. Important to others. The American people want to see it. They have a right to ask for it. If he doesn't want to show it ... that's fine .... but this will just fester and it will prove that he is NOT 'change'. It'll prove that he isn't 'transparent'.

He'll also not get votes because of it. His loss. His inexperience will be showing ... or his telling lies about being 'change'.

Originally posted by jamie83
So if it turns out that his name is really Barry, or he was listed as a muslim at birth, or that his middle name is really Muhammad, it would reflect on his willingness to lie and deceive people, and to cover up the truth. These are the very issues he claims he would never do.

Exactly.

All he has to do is release a piece of paper. It's very simple. But he won't do it. He won't do it because he is NOT what he pretends to be - IMHO.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
If birth certificates were public, identity theft would be rampant!

The parental information on the certificate is already known (supposedly).
So there is nothing on that piece of paper that would lend itself to 'identity theft'.

He has a right to show his birth certificate to ONLY those who OK his presidential bid. He is not obligated to show it to anyone else.

Sure. That's already been said ... on page one, two, three, four, five, and now page six. We already know that.

Just as tax information and medical records are private but are released by the potential POTUS, this information is being requested by the American people and should be released. Same thing.

Originally posted by grover
I have never had to supply my birth certificate for a job.

I have several times along with my social security card, college transcripts, my degree itself for copying, and a set of fingerprints.

In today's World, it's 100% necessary to prove you're qualified for most professional positions.

This is just one more ploy to slam Obama over meaningless stuff to distract people from the real issues.

Like the economy and like the war and like the differences between him and McCain's positions.

No, it's not an attempt to slam Obama, it's simply a matter of discosure of pertinent information. If he has nothing to hide, what's his problem?

Originally posted by jamie83
It seems if the state of Hawaii thinks you have a "direct and tangible interest" in obtaining a birth certificate they will give you somebody else birth certificate to look at.

That's why I said in my previous post: "unless you're a family member or under other specific circumstances"

So where is the absolute RIGHT of privacy? Apparently there is none.

I didn't say there was one. The Constitution does not enumerate a right of privacy per se. I was speaking in general terms, as the phrase "right of privacy" is normally used.

The U. S. Constitution contains no express right to privacy. The Bill of Rights, however, reflects the concern of James Madison and other framers for protecting specific aspects of privacy, such as the privacy of beliefs (1st Amendment), privacy of the home against demands that it be used to house soldiers (3rd Amendment), privacy of the person and possessions as against unreasonable searches (4th Amendment), and the 5th Amendment's privilege against self-incrimination, which provides protection for the privacy of personal information. In addition, the Ninth Amendment states that the "enumeration of certain rights" in the Bill of Rights "shall not be construed to deny or disparage other rights retained by the people." The meaning of the Ninth Amendment is elusive, but some persons (including Justice Goldberg in his Griswold concurrence) have interpreted the Ninth Amendment as justification for broadly reading the Bill of Rights to protect privacy in ways not specifically provided in the first eight amendments.

The "Right of Privacy"

I cannot help but wonder if you in the USA are about to vote between two candidates who were not born within the United States proper. Such a bizarre world US American politics have become -- nearly as bizarre as Canadian politics.

Were I voting in the USA election I wouldn't vote for a single Democratic or Republican candidate (save Kucinich and Ron Paul). I would vote Libertarian, Green, almost anything but the 2Parties that are really the same party under the current Cabal.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Why should he?

You've got me curious. Looking at MY birth certificate, I can't see anything that would be of interest to anyone. I was born in Alabama, to my parents bleh and blah, and there's my name in the middle, the end. I can't imagine that a Hawa'ian birth certificate is much more exciting.

What, do you suppose he was actually born in Kamchatka to a couple of gulag exiles who sold him into adoption or what?

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Sigh.

You have a right to privacy. Period. You have every right in the world you can think of, with the EXCEPTION being where the law butts in. The Constitution does not give us rights. It outlines the very specific manner where the government can infringe on those rights and the limitations to doing so.

THus why the writers of the constitution thought the Bill of Rights was redundant, but hey, apparently the idiocracy was alive and well back then, too.

reply to post by FlyersFan


He does have to prove he is a natuaral born citizen. It is a public record, so you could file a freedom of information act request and obtain it that way. Any journalist could do this.

I don't know if he has shown anyone his Birth Certificate to those who need to know or not, but this I do know when it comes to American Politics, John Kerry caught flack for his wife not releasing her W-2 forms as did McCains wife.
Neither of these womens tax returns were/are relevant to the husband running for office, it is not as if you cant be president if your spouse earns either too much or too little.

However if one is not able to be president due to felony, nationality age or whatever else then yeah the public should be able to see it.

I think it is strange that the public will demand to see tax returns that are not relevant, and the candidates will show them, but documents to prove wither or not the candidate in question is even legally able to be president and the documents are a no show.

I tend to think that Obama's message of "change" is a bunch of bunk anyway I mean it is not as if he has not been known to disenfranchise the voter in the past...


"As a community organizer, he had helped register thousands of voters. But when it came time to run for office, he employed Chicago rules to invalidate the voting petition signatures of three of his challengers.

The move denied each of them, including incumbent Alice Palmer, a longtime Chicago activist, a place on the ballot. It cleared the way for Obama to run unopposed on the Democratic ticket in a heavily Democrat district.

"That was Chicago politics," said John Kass, a veteran Chicago Tribune columnist. "Knock out your opposition, challenge their petitions, destroy your enemy, right? It is how Barack Obama destroyed his enemies back in 1996 that conflicts with his message today. He may have gotten his start registering thousands of voters. But in that first race, he made sure voters had just one choice."
www.cnn.com...

UGHHHHH!!!!!!!! Either there is a Conspiracy Behind the sudden B-Certificate Request and the Wife just upping and giving Separate Tax forms for some silly proof..I mean dang. The man was a senator. If thats the Issue. You might as well ask Arnold Schwarzenegger for a copy of his B-certificate also. I mean its only fair i guess. Im tired of all this Have and dont Have Foolishness. People tend too Forget that the 8th President was half Dutch.."Martin Van Buren".

Originally posted by Buck Division
Here is an interesting related thread, here in ATS, as of today:

Barack Obama recruits staff to fight web smears

I look forward to a lively debate between ATS members and paid staffers of Obama. In particular, I would love to see FlyersFan and Jetxnet team up in an interactive give-and-take against Obama's representatives. That would be amazing!

#

I wonder what channels Obama's staffers are going to target? (I would hope ATS would be one of them.) Can ATS management agressively pursue this? Maybe a formal invitation to debate, offered at a high level?

#

Edit: One more note. I'm not sure which side would actually win in a debate like that (ATS conservatives vs. Obama staffers), it could go either way. But I am absolutely sure that the "truth" would win, at some important level.

[edit on 11-6-2008 by Buck Division]

Yep , They Have Their WebSite Up And Running . Check Out _fightthesmears.com . We Can All Engage His Staffers And Ask Them To Join Us Here On ATS . Hope They Will . Lets Give Em A Run For Their Money !

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
Why should he?

Already answered this.

Because the American voting public wants to see it.

What, do you suppose he was actually born in Kamchatka to a couple of gulag exiles who sold him into adoption or what?

You havent' read the thread have you? If you had, you'd see that I don't speculate on anything of the sort. Some people are now wondering where he was actually born. Me? I have no idea what, if anything, is on the birth certificate that could cause him to be so cagey. Some old certificates have 'religion' on them. Could that be it?? Who knows.

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
so you could file a freedom of information act request and obtain it that way. Any journalist could do this.

Hawaii FOIA was discussed. Some folks tried and failed ... at least I think that's what happened. It's hard for me to follow ...

Originally posted by sacerd
I think it is strange that the public will demand to see tax returns that are not relevant, and the candidates will show them, but documents to prove wither or not the candidate in question is even legally able to be president and the documents are a no show.

I find it strange as well.

Here it Is.

For all those curious, he was born at 7:24 PM. Can't wait to hear what the "astrologers" have to say! LOL

Thank you The Daily KOS

[edit on 12-6-2008 by Benevolent Heretic]

Probably isn't his real name.

MABUS