NOBama Nation: 1.7 Trillon required for Universal Healthcare AND Global Poverty Act

Originally posted by Rasobasi420

As for my previous statement, of course there are more options than feeding your children McDonalds, but many poor families don't consider them. Should the children suffer because of it?

Nope. I did mention in one of my posts that I thought we should protect the children and the elderly. (In my defense.)

BTW, just curious, do you know any poor children that have been denied medical treatment?

Sometimes I think children are used a pawns in this type of argument to make those of us against UMC look like inhuman monsters.

I want everyone to have medical care... just not this way. I want reform so the prices are within everyone's reach - just not UMC!


--- edited to add the following:

I get the feeling that our friend from England (who was so kind as to provide all the info on their system) thinks that we let children die in the streets.

So if someone knows of an economically impoverished child, who's mom took him to the hospital for treatment, who actually was denied treatment... tell your story... I want to hear it.

Also, did she (the mom) ever investigate any of the zillions of charitable or church organizations, or the county health clinic, who could have helped with PM, or free innoculations, etc?

Let's see how long it takes for someone to dig up a solid example of the "children suffering". Remember, our British friend thinks we have an obligation to take care of people and doesn't think we can do it without UHC. I say that's crap... people get cared for all the time in this country with no money. It's not the best care... but we don't let our children just die unless their parents have done nothing to attempt to get them treatment... and UHC will not help with parents who don't care or don't try.


[edit on 9-6-2008 by JonInMichigan]

i agree with the post above. everyone needs health care but a universal plan is not the answer. i get my insurance for free from my work. i dont want my taxes raised so i have to pay for someone else. every penny i can get helps. and i try to be as smart as i can with my money, an extra hundred bucks a month could go a long way for me and my family. why should i give it to someone else? I know this sounds selfish, but MY family will always be MY first priority. If I have extra money at the end of the month, I dont want to give it to someone else, I want to save it so it can benefit my family.

heres an idea, everyone who wants this healthcare plan, and everyone who wants to help support the poor, do it. donate a portion of your paycheck every month, week, whatever and help them out yourself. since there is so many people that are backing these plans, then there should be no shortage of money coming in to help these people right? WRONG.

Im willing to bet that in the situation above, may 10% of the population if that would give a significant portion of their paycheck every week to support others voluntarily. I have no evidence to support this, its just my thoughts. Ask yourself, would you pay money to a complete stranger every month on the otherside of the nation?

Originally posted by tdubz
i dont want my taxes raised so i have to pay for someone else. every penny i can get helps. and i try to be as smart as i can with my money, an extra hundred bucks a month could go a long way for me and my family. why should i give it to someone else? I know this sounds selfish, but MY family will always be MY first priority. If I have extra money at the end of the month, I dont want to give it to someone else, I want to save it so it can benefit my family.

Well, you avaricious monster you. That extra hundred bucks could go to some poor deserving crack-head who got his teeth knocked-out by his drug dealer. Or some hooker who got pregnant for the 100th time and needs another abortion or some idiot who just wanted to spend their money on a 99 inch plasma t.v. and not on health insurance. And you want to use it for your family? Evil, selfish, greedy American pig. For shame.

Originally posted by JonInMichigan
So if someone knows of an economically impoverished child, who's mom took him to the hospital for treatment, who actually was denied treatment... tell your story... I want to hear it.

Of course they won't be denied treatment because by law hospitals cannot refuse anyone, but who do you think pays for that service when the mother is too poor to pay?

Imagine how much less our health care would cost instead of that $8k that your employer pays for your benefits. I don't have a number, but I would bet it would be around 25% less. We are already paying for the care they received.

Originally posted by Wotan
1. Nor was any Western country. National Health systems never came about until the 20th Century.

Granted. It’s novel and not easily transferable to the intent of the 18th Century. I still don’t see that the Founders would have approved of it though, based upon everything they did and said.

Originally posted by Wotan
2. Well according to your belief of Socialism/Communism then the whole of Europe are Socialist and/or Communist. I believe the US gives money to other countries around the world, so is the US now a Socialist/Communist Country. It would be under your set of beliefs. I would hardly call the UK, Denmark, Holland and Norway socialist countries. I think you lump socialism and communism into the same mold when really there is a big difference.

Well, there is a spectrum here, not an absolute. That is, countries can have varying degrees of Socialism in differing aspects of their governance. To my eyes, most of the countries you listed would rank as more Socialist than not. Therefore, they are Socialist in general.

Originally posted by Wotan
3. Frankly, the Constitution isn’t worth the paper its written on. It means nothing to me, sorry. It has no bearing on this issue. Your Government is voted by the people to look after the people.

Although it pains me deeply to admit this…on this point you are correct: the Constitution isn’t worth the paper it’s written on. That doesn’t mean that I think that it’s worthless – only that people today, in general, don’t understand it or appreciate it. Sadly, it is fading into the realms of historical relics and that is a true tragedy.
On the second point you are somewhat misguided though. Our founders believed that government was a bane to people and the more it interfered with their lives the worse things would be. Again, lamentably, this viewpoint is on the decline.

Originally posted by Wotan
4. Well you cant just pick and choose which bits of the UN you like at the time. It suits the US when it wants to start a war.

First, I don’t personally like ANY part of the U.N. (especially the dumb blue hats). Second, the fact that the U.S. would even deign to ask for approval of such a bogus, sham of authority, is appalling to me.

Originally posted by Wotan
I think we will have to agree to disagree on some points. I think it must be a cultural thing between the US and EU countries but for the life of me I cant see what the problem is in wanting to help the less fortunate out of your citizenry.

I agree as well. What I can’t understand is why you can’t see that our Nation was founded upon the belief that no man is beholden to another. That no man should be forced to submit unwillingly to oppression from above. That all men are created as free beings, and thus only give their allegiance willingly and without duress. That all men have the right and freedom to choose to succeed or fail based upon their own decisions. That Government is not to ensure either success or failure but only to ensure that the freedom to do so is unimpeded.



[edit on 9-6-2008 by passenger]

reply to post by JonInMichigan


Tell me friend, what % of bankruptcy in the USA is due to health care? Care to take a guess?

How about 50%. Would you also be interested in knowing that a large portion of these people who went bankrupt due to medical bills also HAD insurance? Well sadly it IS the case.

Costly illnesses trigger about half of all personal bankruptcies, and most of those who go bankrupt because of medical problems have health insurance, according to findings from a Harvard University study to be released Wednesday. link

My point in saying this to you? You asked for evidence of ONE suffering child due to poor / inadequate health care. I for one am willing to bet that among all those who went bankrupt due to our countries lacking health care system, there were a LOT more than one kid that suffered.

Going back to the post that mentioned how taxes pay for National Healthcare. In the UK we also get a non-taxable allowance - this basically means you can earn so much (Tax Free) before the 10%, 22% and 40% kicks in. This is calculated on wether you are single, married have children etc etc. Again please dont ask me to go into details as it is a complicated business ..... Taxes.

As a very rough guide, approximately 30% of your wages goes into the Governments Coffers in Direct taxation (provided you are a basic tax payer), ie: PAYE (Pay As You Earn). This money then pays for Defence, Education, Health and everything else. The vast majority of the UK population would fall into the basic tax payer bracket.

I do beleive the Nordic/Scandinavian countries pay higher taxes for their health/social care systems.

There is private health insurance in the UK and some employers pay for this for their employee. It is generally seen in the UK though as a ''job perk'', much like a company car. Virtually all private hospitals in the UK do not have Emergency Departments, you still go to an NHS one. There is no opt out of paying Social Security if you have a private health plan, so in affect you are paying for two health care plans.

The only real private health plan that has become more accepted in the UK is for dental and optical treatments. There are state funded NHS dentists, but they are becoming harder to join and are heavily oversubscribed.

The NHS was conceived during WW2 and came about after the war. The Government of the day wanted a ''Land fit for heroes'' and a ''Cradle to grave'' healthcare system. Up until that point (1947/49 i think the NHS came into being) there was no universal healthcare in the UK.

Please remember that the UK healthcare system not only covers Acute Care (Hospitals) but also out in the Community as well with its District Nurses, Residential Homes, Dentists, Hospices, Prison Healthcare, Nursing Homes, General Practitioners, Medical Centres, Care Managers etc etc. Its not just Healthcare but also social care as well, the two are very interlinked.

I can see how our US cousins are very apprehensive about a 'National Health System', just like we in Europe would be if our whole system went 'private'. I know that in the UK, it would be 'political suicide' for anyone in Government or political party to even suggest the idea of a private health system.

No health system in the world is perfect except perhaps the Sultanate of Brunei's where the Sultan there pays for all of it for all of his subjects. I must admit that the French healthcare system is not a bad one as theirs is a combined system whereby the 'patient' pays a certain % of their healthcare and the Government pays the rest.

To all of you in the US i would wait until you see the bones of any Universal Healthcare Plan to truly judge how it would work.

Very intersting thread by the way - its good to compare the different systems.

Thanks Wutan, very informative post.

I think the X-factor for an American Universal Healthcare plan is for an overwhelmingly poor Mexican population for starters.

By 2010, a plan is in place to form the North American Union (NAU). American taxpayers would be covering alot of very poor Mexican health problems.

The UK does not have an overwhelming poor population like Mexico.

Also, the range of technical specialites in America is astounding through private sector research and innovation. In American, NASA has even provided medical breakthrus.

Our best Doctors are not going to want to work for the government, and I can't blame them.

Mr. jetxnet, I don't see how you come up with the ridiculous amount of 1.7 trillion dollars as a cost for Obama's Health care and Global Poverty act, so please answer my questions I posted in this post.

And also please backup your numbers with reliable sources and not the website you posted, thank you.

Originally posted by Karlhungis
It really seems that the burdon for this system will be astronomical. I personally have zero faith that any significant amount of that burdon will be put on the upper 10% of the wealth in the nation. The middle class will have to bear the burdon which will further increase the divide between the classes.

The thing is, even if the burden did fall onto the upper class, it would trickle down to the rest of us anyways. I don't know about you, but the guy who signs my paycheck is a rich guy. The rich in this country are the job providers. When they get hit in the pocketbook, they cut their employee base to keep the profits in line. Taxes are already high enough on big business that outsourcing is becoming the standard practice for new positions. Raising taxes more is going to make this situation even more common.

post deleted.

subject covered.

[edit on 10-6-2008 by tyranny22]

jetxnet, it has almost been 24 hours since my request for clarifying your claims. If I do not hear from you by that time I will be submitting my first complaint ever against this thread.

reply to post by AgentScmidt


Scmidt - You conservatives are sociopaths! We are a nation and we are supposed to work together...Your prehistoric mentality is what keeps us in this choatic limbo. Why must we endow the rich with more money??? Men with tens of millions of dollars or more keep the majority of their money in the bank. It make much more sense to bias economics to favor the poor because the money will certianly enter the market quicker-
And still flow into the pockets of your favorite people -Are you multi millionaire? 'cause
then your politics would make senses!

I got in an accident in New Zealand... 4 million people in N.Z - would have cost $15,000 here- free there for me, I'm an American... FREE, No cost....

I also had a job in New Zealand and I got paid MORE for the SAME WORK - The Roads are BETTER - the Hospitals are more efficient and people live longer -I am a proud American and I want the same in my country!!!

You guys LOST the civil war - Let go of your backwards mentality -If was up to you right sacks we would still have slaves, lords and indentured servants.WAKE UP!!!!!!!
Everytime you get your sick rich men in office they wreck the economy and pee upon
the common man in the name of Jesus's values. Jesus would shoot lightning out of his powder blue eyes and fall dead from hyper tension if he had to free mankind from Repulican tyranny. Obama will show you, McLame is a joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You reds are all Nuts! Your fowl and putrid presidents have all been sociopaths. The economic policy that is reflected by your vile malignant ideals have created this chaos!
WAR---
Money spent on ensuring a exploding and dismembering crimson faceless death somehow is logical for you people. However spending OUR money to ensure OUR HEALTH is somehow a ridiculous proposal? I've had it with you guys completely, BLUES won the war... You Reds would still support slavery if we didn't mess you up way back when ---- you fools sighted a free market then...
( republican values!!!)

you always try to parcel and divide our country men--- somehow you are constantly under siege... In reality it is your blind, logic free total support of big business which slights you, bleeds your wallet and undermines the private life of every person you see each and every day! Yet, you blame and chastise the least powerful and likely of offenders, ordinary working stiffs......................


America is tired of having to pay for the bill boards, the airtime, the market research, the property and CEO'S...

We are tired of your FOX News, mind free Sociopath rhetoric!

I would suggest dividing the coasts off and giving you the center- But unfortunately you would probably invade us and sell our ground bodys on the free market to Taco Bell. FREE MARKET!!!

I will be here wishing that all of you get to experience being wiped out be an illness, may your insurance deny coverage, may you and yours suffer and lose everything as my family has twice. Finally may you not be able to declare bankruptcy because of your
past vote and may you spend the rest of your life in debt paying for $10,000 a month, once a day chemo for cancer which will strike 1 in 3 of us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by just great
You reds are all Nuts! Your fowl and putrid presidents have all been sociopaths. The economic policy that is reflected by your vile malignant ideals have created this chaos!
WAR---
Money spent on ensuring a exploding and dismembering crimson faceless death somehow is logical for you people. However spending OUR money to ensure OUR HEALTH is somehow a ridiculous proposal? I've had it with you guys completely, BLUES won the war... You Reds would still support slavery if we didn't mess you up way back when ---- you fools sighted a free market then...
( republican values!!!)

If I was you, I would probably read a book before I posted something. Everything you wrote is wrong. For starters, the Republican Party was created anti-slavery activists. And Abraham Lincoln was the Republican party's first president. You should at least know who that was, the guy that aboloished slavery, and presided over the Cival War?

Originally posted by just great
you always try to parcel and divide our country men--- somehow you are constantly under siege... In reality it is your blind, logic free total support of big business which slights you, bleeds your wallet and undermines the private life of every person you see each and every day! Yet, you blame and chastise the least powerful and likely of offenders, ordinary working stiffs......................

You are envious of successful people. I have never heard a republican talk about "Two Americas", "Rich VS Poor". Maybe you should rethink your logic. Let me explain something to you. No corporation can regulate a market. No Company can make policy, or make laws. No company can take away by force your rights, your money, or your property. Only your Government can. And Democrats have had a majority in congress for 2 years now, you guys haven't done a damn thing.

Originally posted by just great
America is tired of having to pay for the bill boards, the airtime, the market research, the property and CEO'S...

Me too, I want subsidies ended for everything. But unlike you I won't nit-pick and be a hypocrite, becuase I wouldn't subsidize medicine either. 65% of health care in this country is already paid for by taxpayers, but here's a little figure you don't hear so often. 90% of all profits from the Health care industry goes directly into the pockets of the CEO's. Yea, you pay 65% of all health care services out there, and virtually all the profits go to a Corporate CEO that you hate so much. What a marvelous scam it already is. I can't wait for Universal Health care, can't wait to see you guys with your cardboard signs held high in the air, showing how you won a victory over the evil Man in the Black suit, lol. That man in the black suit is going to get even more disgustingly rich becuase of you. He won't even have to advertise anymore, cause he'll have a nice steady flow of billions, upon billions of tax dollars. And all of America will get the same health care enjoyed by millions of Veterans in any VA hospital. Don't be angry about it, it's exactly what you're asking for.

Some of you people just refuse to think. Unbelievable.



[edit on 10-6-2008 by aravoth]

[edit on 10-6-2008 by aravoth]

Dear OP,


could you, for the benefit of accurate information, please cite sources to the 1.7. Trillion-figure you mention in your thread title?

Thanks in advance.

Originally posted by aravoth
If I was you, I would probably read a book before I posted something. Everything you wrote is wrong. For starters, the Republican Party was created anti-slavery activists. And Abraham Lincoln was the Republican party's first president. You should at least know who that was, the guy that aboloished slavery, and presided over the Cival War?

Not quite true. While it may have been the 'Republican' Party, it was in all actuality nothing like the Republican party of today.

You are envious of successful people. I have never heard a republican talk about "Two Americas", "Rich VS Poor".

Perhaps. If that is true, they are clearly in denial of the 'tale of 2 cities'.

Maybe you should rethink your logic. Let me explain something to you. No corporation can regulate a market. No Company can make policy, or make laws. No company can take away by force your rights, your money, or your property. Only your Government can. And Democrats have had a majority in congress for 2 years now, you guys haven't done a damn thing.

I suggest you do a bit of research into how companies OWN lawmakers. It does not matter if companies do not make laws, they have people on the inside who do.

Its quite convenient that many politicians happen to be affiliated with various companies either during their term or were in the past/future.

Me too, I want subsidies ended for everything. But unlike you I won't nit-pick and be a hypocrite, becuase I wouldn't subsidize medicine either. 65% of health care in this country is already paid for by taxpayers, but here's a little figure you don't hear so often. 90% of all profits from the Health care industry goes directly into the pockets of the CEO's. Yea, you pay 65% of all health care services out there, and virtually all the profits go to a Corporate CEO that you hate so much. What a marvelous scam it already is. I can't wait for Universal Health care, can't wait to see you guys with your cardboard signs held high in the air, showing how you won a victory over the evil Man in the Black suit, lol. That man in the black suit is going to get even more disgustingly rich becuase of you. He won't even have to advertise anymore, cause he'll have a nice steady flow of billions, upon billions of tax dollars. And all of America will get the same health care enjoyed by millions of Veterans in any VA hospital. Don't be angry about it, it's exactly what you're asking for.

Sounds like you're mad at the corporations, not universal health care. The abuse of the system is already endemic. Hopefully in an government-regulated system, there would not be private companies who made a quick buck thanks to subsidies or contracts.

Some of you people just refuse to think. Unbelievable.

It is quite believable as I see the same tired responses from many people and I have yet to see any proof that universal healthcare would cost $1.7 trillion, and I'm assuming that is additional to the current system.

I suggest you think as well.

reply to post by Loray


Thats a good post Loray. What is really needed is take the profit equation out of healthcare. Currently medical and insurance costs have to cover profit margins for the investors and taxes for the goverment. Works out to about 30% or so, which just happens to be the difference spent on healthcare in the US vs. countries with more socialized programs. Cut out profits and taxes on those profits and our healthcare spending goes down by a third or so. The supposed increased taxes for universal healthcare is a lark. If you spend less total money, then the share of each citizen will be lower. maybe youpayitin taxes. maybe you pay it in premiums. bottomline is that you pay for it one way or another. The uninsured already cost us plenty.

So how do you ensure quality healthcare? First off you don't have the goverment running it. Instead have the goverment contract out to the current healthcare organizations. Instead of being run for profit, they start being run to provide the best healthcare. Employees at all levels will be compensated based on how effectively and efficently they provide care. Those that don't cut the mustard, or are deadwood get tossed out.

Doctors still make an excellent salary and potential for large bonuses. They get their offices outfitted with all the neccesary equipment for them to do their job properly. They don't have to pay malpractice or anything. Show up, save the day, and become wealthy in return.

Research is also funded by the goverment or private enterprise( if they wish). We take over the funding of all current programs and start increasing research at a quick pace. All needed medicines and cures will then be provided at no cost to the system. Again, the current healthcare organizations would be instrumental in the research and production of pharmaceuticals and also would be rewarded based on their effectiveness.

It is time that we took control of the run away cost of healthcare being forced upon us by the quest for profits. After all this same program will most likely allow to live a much longer and much healthier life than you do now. Eventually there would be little need for daily medication as resources gets used to generate cures rather than generating revenue stream.

And for those who don't want it? Wellyou can still have your own private doctors. Being a doctor will be a good deal for good doctors under my universal approach, but be warned, the bad doctors will be the ones that stay in private practice as they won'tsurvive the new systemwith their quackery.

Wouldn't mind if these same principles applied to telecommunications, food and energy as well.

In the end it will not cost more and service and results wouldimrove for everyone. Initial costs would be high, as shareholders would have to paid before instituting such a system.

It's time to face it. Supply and demand does not really work except for those at the top of the chain. Too much greed is involved and the bottom line is that profits need to grow. Too much regulation is needed to keep things in check and that same greed tends to render that regulation ineffective at best. I am all for free enterprise, but when it comes to the essentials of life in a modern society, we can no longer allow profit to be the driving force

The 1.7 million is derived from Obama's own Campaign site.

It is broken down policy by policy and tabulated across this policies on this site:

www.dontvoteobama.net...

This site has the breakdown and the cited sources going straight back to your favorite site, barackobama.com, on a policy by policy basis.

Originally posted by aravoth
If I was you, I would probably read a book before I posted something. Everything you wrote is wrong. For starters, the Republican Party was created anti-slavery activists. And Abraham Lincoln was the Republican party's first president. You should at least know who that was, the guy that aboloished slavery, and presided over the Cival War?

Hey Red - your party has lost its way in the last century. Your party has had men such as Wallis and Duke upon its rosters in recent times. The current Red mentality is neolithic and nasty. It was the Blue mentality that had the courage to change the disparities of civil rights in CURRENT times. Your new mentality is the same as those slave owner you once fought against. Business is king, money is the real god and all Americans must endure anything that the wealthy dictate. Oh yes and thanks to your I.Q
of 83 presidents , most industries do monitor, regulate and enforce a bias towards their own industrial operations on the basis of your parties core values. Your suck cut hair cut senators and representatives ensure that regulation is in favor of anything that will create political support in the form of money and FOX news type propaganda!!!!!

Bats Crap to your mind and its stinking ridged walls... The lack of accomplishment on behalf of dems in the senate and the house is a result of Repo stone walling and anti citizen bias. Reds Creating chaos and blaming the effects on others... Bills filled with ridiculous appendages like so many blast from a 12 gauge is page 2 out of the Repo political play book.

As far as healthcare... May you personally suffer - be denied by your Black suits - may you lose everything as we have... May you effectively become an indentured servant
for rest of your days to those suits ... May you pray for an answer that once was laid at your door step by your enemies... You will be effected... One day you will realize it was your voice that cried for the very worst of man kinds tendencies to be enforced. May you argue with heartless people such as your current self. May you contest endlessly that somethings, some rights should not owned by any interests or denied to any man in our country!

- Healthcare should be a fundamental human right - in my mind it is, I will fight for it - We currently pay for a charbroiled man to be carried out of a burning building with tax payers dollars, but we will not ensure that he will receives every medical advance available??? We Blues are not asking to Socialize - creativity - science - energy...
We are talking about a Basic Human need that should not belong to any small group, rather belong to everyone. One day Red you WILL be stricken and might you watch your full coverage prescribe a remedy that is three times your rent, food and basics combined!
So I hold that spending money on projectiles is a waste Red. I also hold that
Lincoln had a conscience that is no longer alive in you rotting cabbage of moral bankruptcy that you term the RNC. Your current mindset is in line with the serfs of the past, promoting the lords that enslave all! P.O - F.F

[edit on 10-6-2008 by just great]