NOBama Nation: 1.7 Trillon required for Universal Healthcare AND Global Poverty Act

so.. mkay. you would rather have a war that A. is damaging the economy B. skyrocketing oil prices and C. is dividing this country in polar opposites not seen since the days of slavery.. as opposed to say.. A. Free medicine B. Free Surgery C. Free Check-ups ect. Now of course i know these things wouldn't be absolutely free with taxes and all, but i think i would much rather have the well-being of knowing that if anyone of my family or friends, or myself were to become ill or injured, that they would be taken care of guaranteed. that's just my two cents

Iraq war causing higher oil prices ---

False, the global economy is affected by the rise in Oil prices. Many places are paying more than the US is. It is the global increase in higher Oil demand with China's booming economy as a large contributing factor. Many Chinese are getting vehicles because of their higher quality of living afforded to them by ithe trade deficit with Walmart (220 Billion now in China's) favor.

With all the Chinese buying and using vehicles now requires Gas to power them. You can't expect over 1 Billion Chinese to have the same quality of life as yourself and expect it not to strain the Global supply chain.

Free Surgery and check-ups

At what cost and who will be doing them?



[edit on 9-6-2008 by jetxnet]

reply to post by 2nd2no1


It isn't an "either or" situation. Just because Obama wants to get out of Iraq doesn't mean that it will happen. The current administration is working to ensure that we remain as a long term presence in Iraq. So, we will have both a costly war and a costly health plan.

Let's be realistic. The one thing alot of political Obama skeptics are saying is that it really does show how naive Obama is when it comes to the world state. Obama claims a complete withdrawl in 2 years, but most everyone in the political arena are saying this is not possible.

Even going by Obama's claim that in two years time this would be the case, that's already half of his first term.

He is clearly making false promises. When you look at the reality of the situation, Obama in office will further drive the economy beyond redline. I think he believes he'll have access to Canada and Mexicos resources under the NAU. The problem is though, Mexico is overwhelmingly poor. They have much worse medical problems than the US. Obama would expect you to take care of them, unlike Mexico's government has miserably failed to do.

Are you a good caretaker, because under Obama's plan, you are going to be giving it up for him and his blanket Utopia. He is a NWO puppet, and a one world government is the goal.

Most people would be poor with virtually no middle class, and then you will have Obama, the investment bankers and the rich businessmen at the top taking in all the money, more than ever before.

China stands in the way of a US corporate controlled NWO (see my signature link). What started out being a testbed has turned into an adversarial stance between state-run facilities and Corporate Facism.




[edit on 9-6-2008 by jetxnet]

I am curious as to how many people on this board have watched Michael Moore's documentary 'Sicko'? While some of his data has been flagged as questionable, the point is clearly that Universal Healthcare is not merely about cents and dollars, but raising the quality of life for everyone in your country, equally.
It disturbs me greatly to see people disgusted with the fact that their tax dollars could go to help the less fortunate, while never considering the fact that the ability to look after your nation's sick is not only necessary, but should be something worthy of taking pride in.
If you think that the morality of it is worthless, wouldn't it be at least notable to consider how great it would feel to know if you get sick, that everything is taken care of and that no one will refuse you help. No forms to fill out, no cash exchanging hands... no worrying that your deductible is going to ruin your well planned car payments on your shiny SUV.
I'm Canadian, and yes we pay taxes for Universal Healthcare. I wouldn't have it any other way. Nor would most of my countrymen, who have voted to repeatedly smack down the greedy corporations who would introduce their privatized healthcare and detract for the public institution we've built.
Our government even takes responsibility to manage the health care system so that costs are significantly lower than what you pay in a free market health care economy.

According to the Bloomberg report, your country is getting taken to the cleaner by your system. Here is just one example:
“Americans pay 83 percent more for heart-bypass surgery than Canadians, with no difference in outcome, because of higher medicine and labor costs”
“The cost of medications used to treat bypass patients, including aspirin and the antibiotic ciprofloxacin, were as much as 68 percent greater in the U.S. than in Canada.”
“The cost of a surgical bed was 36 percent greater in the U.S.”
www.bloomberg.com...

While our system has its flaws, occasional wait times, and is occasionally targeted by statistics that crap on the quality of the service here, the important thing remains that I've never been refused care. I’ve never had to forgo medication because I was broke and a student with a terrible minimum wage job, or had to worry about getting sick. Nor has anyone else I know. As an added bonus, my elderly mother's heart disease and aunt's cancer have never once threatened to bankrupt our family, or cost us our homes. There is a lot to be said for taxes being used to give peace of mind.

You are Canadian, nuff' said. Move along nothing to see here ; )

C'mon, quit buying into propaganda. Michael Moore *coughs* umm, ahh, yeah, ok.

reply to post by Loray


I think a lot of people look at it like you. They think that anyone who is opposed to Obama's plan doesn't care about the poor and it is as simple as that. It is a complicated issue. I would love for everyone to get good healthcare for free. How we get to that is the problem.

It really seems that the burdon for this system will be astronomical. I personally have zero faith that any significant amount of that burdon will be put on the upper 10% of the wealth in the nation. The middle class will have to bear the burdon which will further increase the divide between the classes.

Our politicians are owned by the upper 10% and they will make sure that they will be protected. Right now the middle class and below is getting slobber knocked with rising food and fuel costs, we can ill afford to take on the large tax increases that it will take to fund this.

It isn't about a lack of concern for people without healthcare, it is about self preservation at this point. It would be one thing if our government has shown a genuine concern for its people, placing them above the corporations, but we don't live in that world. We are ruled by a government that protects the corporations first and foremost so forgive me if I don't believe that they can pull this off for the betterment of the people.

Tax the wealthy and the corporations to pay for it on the same scale as they plan on taxing the middle class and I will be more supportive. But if I am going to have to pay 10-20% of my disposable income to fund someone elses doctor bills, the upper class had better be eating the same 10-20%. It won't happen though. This will only further the creation of the working class and ruling class divide.

Yes, that is some wonderful propaganda. It's funny how most of the major news agencies in the world are in on it too...
So how are things going in the US anyways? I watched Bush talk about your economy today, enlightening... The campaign woes of Clinton and Obama... truly fascinating

Excellent post Karl, well said. By and large, these are the core reasons health care in America would not work as stated. It feeds the NWO objectives, which in turn are really governed by Corporate Facism.

Read the thread titled "Obama and the Bilderbergers (PROOF)". He has concrete ties to the men that really run the country. They are your international investment bankers and NWO architects.

The poor really will become more poor while the rich will really get richer. It will be more true than ever under Obama's government model of larger government and high taxation.

It's funny how most of the major news agencies in the world are in on it too...

The major news agencies have large investments by NWO architects and other corporations. In other words, the news agencies' hands are in the pockets of rich corporate NWO investors.!

Do you want me to tell you there isn't a Santa Clause too?? ; )

Originally posted by Loray
I am curious as to how many people on this board have watched Michael Moore's documentary 'Sicko'? While some of his data has been flagged as questionable, the point is clearly that Universal Healthcare is not merely about cents and dollars, but raising the quality of life for everyone in your country, equally.
It disturbs me greatly to see people disgusted with the fact that their tax dollars could go to help the less fortunate, while never considering the fact that the ability to look after your nation's sick is not only necessary, but should be something worthy of taking pride in.
If you think that the morality of it is worthless, wouldn't it be at least notable to consider how great it would feel to know if you get sick, that everything is taken care of and that no one will refuse you help. No forms to fill out, no cash exchanging hands... no worrying that your deductible is going to ruin your well planned car payments on your shiny SUV.
I'm Canadian, and yes we pay taxes for Universal Healthcare. I wouldn't have it any other way. Nor would most of my countrymen, who have voted to repeatedly smack down the greedy corporations who would introduce their privatized healthcare and detract for the public institution we've built.
Our government even takes responsibility to manage the health care system so that costs are significantly lower than what you pay in a free market health care economy.

According to the Bloomberg report, your country is getting taken to the cleaner by your system. Here is just one example:
“Americans pay 83 percent more for heart-bypass surgery than Canadians, with no difference in outcome, because of higher medicine and labor costs”
“The cost of medications used to treat bypass patients, including aspirin and the antibiotic ciprofloxacin, were as much as 68 percent greater in the U.S. than in Canada.”
“The cost of a surgical bed was 36 percent greater in the U.S.”
www.bloomberg.com...

While our system has its flaws, occasional wait times, and is occasionally targeted by statistics that crap on the quality of the service here, the important thing remains that I've never been refused care. I’ve never had to forgo medication because I was broke and a student with a terrible minimum wage job, or had to worry about getting sick. Nor has anyone else I know. As an added bonus, my elderly mother's heart disease and aunt's cancer have never once threatened to bankrupt our family, or cost us our homes. There is a lot to be said for taxes being used to give peace of mind.

You bring up some very good points. I am on a fence about this issue, though.
Perhaps you can clear up something for me.

I have heard about Canadians coming to the United States for surgery that for whatever reason they couldn't get in Canada.
Either the wait was too long or they were refused treatment.
If the stories are true, could you perhaps give us some insight as to why they had to wait or were refused?

Since I'm technically considered at or below the poverty line (old PC and extremely low internet bill, so please respect my choices...without the net I'd have zero communication with certain people who are crucial parts of my life) and I am more than willing to let my tax dollars go toward paying for the health care of my fellow American citizens (and fellow human beings of different nationality as well, frankly,) I personally have no problem with this policy if he gets elected, and if it gets passed.

That said, I totally can understand and respect the resentment involved in having to see hard earned dollars going to help someone else, particularly those which in some people's opinion aren't entitled to it. I disagree with that view, but I do understand and respect it, and I'm sensitive to those feelings. I won't condemn or dismiss them.

[edit on 6/9/2008 by AceWombat04]

reply to post by Loray



Excellent post.

I lived in 2 different countries before I came to USA and USA health care system is the worst I have seen so far...

Ask all those hard working American people who got $300000 of medical bills in their mailbox what they really think about it ?

I would rather deal with 10% increase in taxes then give 24% of my income (as of now) to insurance companies, and still have to pay deductible, co-pay and 20% of every major bill and all that is capped to the fixed amount which if I go over, I'm just out of luck (won't even talk about if you go over it, no other insurance company will accept you because you are very high risk customer).

You really need to live and experience universal health care and the one we have here in USA to judge it properly, first hand insight always beats all the speculations.

In the end, it's all about what you choose to believe, is it a privilege to be treated or is it really all about basic human right ?

Originally posted by QuetzalcoatlAlien

Originally posted by jetxnet
No need to back it up, your taxes didn't go up since the war began. If that doesn't explain it, what does? Other countries have paid for it mostly (the Iraq War). China, Japan and the list goes on. Do the research.

The point is, your taxes will GO UP bigtime to cover Obama's plans for the US to solve Global Hunger (as IF it is OUR responsibility in the first place).

Univerals Healthcare, 'nuff said.

Contradicting yourself there, Paulie.

Why is it OUR responsibility to be supposedly ending "Terrorism" and "Muslim Extremists"? Why was it OUR responsibility to go to Vietnam?

Global Hunger is far more serious and should be a humanitarian effort looked up to.

It is not "your" responsibility, it is "your" game. Or at least the game of alle the warmongers in this world. "War on Terror" is a preset game to gain political and economic power. There are a lot of threads on ATS which give info about the ideology and goals of the socalled Neocons. A lot of people in the west would be very happy if we would refrain form it.
This is not a US trashing remark. You will find this kind of mindset all over the world. At this moment China is the next Egomaniac that has only one thing in mind. Be number ONE in all the aspects a nation can be number ONE in.
Wait untill China will take its "responsibility" to change the situation in this world (which it is already doing in Africa by investing a lot). Wait until they say; "You are for us or against us". See you then.




[edit on 9-6-2008 by Pjotr]

I cant believe anyone who doesn't see free healthcare as their GOD given right. In France,UK or where I am, Australia, medical is free or atleast subsidised. Some choose to have private health insurance to allow them to have a choice of doctor and hospital but Ive never had it. I see a doctor, its free. I need surgery, dental work, its free or largely re-imbursed. I cant imagine it any other way nor imagine even holidaying somewhere, where if I was to trip on a sidewalk and break my ankle the hospital wont touch me till they see my insurance. Cant imagine it.

I am Pro-Obama, and after watching Sicko and ignoring the mega-biased views of Michael Moore I saw that we in fact do need it in our country, but it will cost tons of money and I think with the current economic status we need to wait before we do such a huge project.

For such a powerful nation it's personally laughable you guys don't have government funded healthcare. Just look to other western democracies to see it can and does work. France, Australia my goodness the list goes on. It's also kind of funny how it's looked at as almost evil, conditioning I guess.

Originally posted by wisefoolishness
I'll believe what Obama says ... I happen to enjoy kool-aid, thank you very much.

Oh man ... I'll pray for ya'. It's your only hope.
HINT - Don't believe any politician. They are all a mess.

Originally posted by biggie smalls
McCain has said he wants a 100 more years of war, .

No he didn't. He said he wants a 'presence' in the region - like we have in Japan and Germany. He also specifically said - only if the Americans were safe. That's definately NOT war.

Originally posted by Baxtoriafall
I am Pro-Obama, and after watching Sicko and ignoring the mega-biased views of Michael Moore

So .. you admit that you buy into Michael Moore even though he's been proven to be a liar? You admit that you ignore the facts presented against Michael Moore? And you admit that you are voting for Obama?

So what we have here is someone who votes and makes decisions with their eyes closed and their fingers in their ears all the while singing lalalalalalalalaaa.

HERE's the scoop folks - Any politician who is offering you a slice of heaven is just asking you to smoke their hope-ium. There is NO WAY that someone can walk in the office of POTUS and hand out free health care, end a war on terrorism (when the threat is still very much alive and will be for a very long time), keep us strong and safe, not raise taxes, fix the economy and generally make this heaven on earth.

It's a lie. It's an election year lie.

[edit on 6/9/2008 by FlyersFan]

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


You don't have to worry about that. Hospitals in the United States are already required by law to treat patients in an emergency, regardless of whether they are insured or not. Broken ankle? Covered, even if you aren't. This is one reason that hospitals give for the high costs we see today.

www.cms.hhs.gov...

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


Its looked upon as 'evil' because many are fearful that it will lead to an overall decline of the state of healthcare available. For many people who already have excellent healthcare coverage, the concern they have is that their quality of coverage will decline if a national healthcare system is adopted. If they believe that to be the case, why should they be willing to accept it?

reply to post by QuetzalcoatlAlien


How old are you? You dont really seem to know much about socialism. Universal healthcare is socialism and eventually all socialist societies fail from massive corruption and greed in part from the leaders of that socialist government.

As for why should we fight the muslims...they want to convert you to their religion or kill you, that is every muslims goal, it is in the koran and it is every single muslims job to do this without question. Do they all want to? No, but around 30 million of them do, with about 8 million in this country alone.

You think obama will change the world, I agree he will, he will make it worse than it is currently. You blame Bush for everything when in fact the dems have had control of congress for 3 yrs now and have done nothing but waste time and our money trying to save the polar bears they dont need saving.