Man killed after grabbing officer\

reply to post by ybab hsur

but i also take the appraoch that i dont think the officer INTENDED to kill the man.

The officer most certainly did intend to kill the man. You don't shoot someone you don't intend to kill. Period.

That being said, this may indeed have been a justified shooting. I will continue to watch for updates.

reply to post by thegdfather


The third officer should be fired, arrested and jailed for homicide. There was no excuse for him to use deadly force against someone that had a taser, after all the police say tasers are safe and don't kill.
As a former police officer and having family in law enforcement, it's assholes like these that make it dangerous for all other police officers. Police officers that are now coming on to the force suffer from a lack of professionalism and emotional immaturity.
It's a wonder more police aren't killed because of the message jackasses like this police officer sends to the public.

reply to post by AgentScmidt

In police acadmey, officers are trained to shoot and kill anyone that attempts to grab their gun, as it only means one thing: The person grabbing it is going to use it to kill them.

This I agree with.

You have to realize police are a BIG target...

This I do not. The clerk at the donut shop has a better chance of being killed at work.

Originally posted by AgentScmidt
Are you an anti-taser type?

No. I am an anti-taser abuse type. But that's not the issue here.

And honestly what would you choose, a bullet to center mass or a little zap of electricity?

If neither is justified... neither.

I can't say what all went down in this situation. All I'm pointing out is the hypocrisy of the police. They treat their tasers like toys. But all of a sudden when one of their little toys is turned against them they're in fear for their lives. I wish one of the officers would have died from the shock. Unfortunately the lesson would likely have been lost on them.

Originally posted by jackinthebox


This I do not. The clerk at the donut shop has a better chance of being killed at work.

Police officer is not the most deadly job out there, I think it's about number 20 something on life magazine's 100 most dangerous jobs, ranking behind jobs like arctic crab fisherman which I think is the #1 most deadly job with the most deaths per capita. That's probably why they made a show about it, called "deadliest catch".

But you must realize that the only reason being a police officer is not in the top 10 most deadly jobs is because officers have received excellent training and know what to do. If it's them vs some psychopath with a gun, the officer is probably going to come out on top. They simply have much more training, better utilities, backup/help from other officers, and better coordination. So yes, they don't die that much.

But it's a gross exaggeration on your part to say a clerk in a donut shop is a more deadly job. On average almost every police officer will be shot atleast once sometime in their career... I don't think many donut shop clerks can say that.

Originally posted by apc

And honestly what would you choose, a bullet to center mass or a little zap of electricity?

If neither is justified... neither.

Alright you have a criminal grabbing their weapons and attacking them. What are the officers supposed to do, stand there and do nothing?

No, they have to use a utility to subdue the criminal. Pick one:

- Handgun shot to criminal's chest
- Pepper Spray to eyes (couldn't be used in this case since there was more than 1 officer and it is easily misprayed at friendlies)
- Baton breaking criminal's kneecaps
- Taser

Keep in mind officers cannot use their bare hands as punching/kicking is considered police brutality.

If I were the criminal, I'd choose taser. Yes it hurts like hell, but it only lasts for 3 seconds. The pepper spray burns for days. Having my kneecaps broken would hurt for months. Getting shot to the chest would probably kill me unless I got lucky.

Even if police were allowed to punch and kick, I would choose taser over that. The only other option police had was to run - but they cannot do that. They are brave and not cowards.



[edit on 8-6-2008 by AgentScmidt]

reply to post by AgentScmidt

But it's a gross exaggeration on your part to say a clerk in a donut shop is a more deadly job. On average almost every police officer will be shot atleast once sometime in their career... I don't think many donut shop clerks can say that.

You really are ignorant of the facts. I suggest you study them.

www.bls.gov...

There is a far greater chance that a retail clerk will be shot and killed at work than in any other occupation, including law-enforcement.

As far as every officer being shot once in their career, that is completely idiotic. I remember a time when officers were proud of the fact that they went through their entire career without even having to draw their weapon, much less fire it.

I personally have been shot at and had a gun pointed at me many times standing behind the counter of some gas station or quicki-mart, but not one single time while I was wearing a shield.





[edit on 6/8/0808 by jackinthebox]

Well gee, I just had to chime in on this one...

As some of you who posted here (like my friend jackinthebox) know I am currently a Deputy Sheriff in GA and have been a LEO for 6 years now. This "story" hits real close to home because I have had incidents like this where I had to use my taser, and I have arrived on scene where suspects were fighting fellow officers for the taser. Here is one VERY HUGE issue NONE of you mentioned and probably didn't think of....

We carry a weapon, oc spray, batons, and many officers carry a knife as well....now, if said suspect gets the chance to taser an officer, he just made accessing those other weapons MUCH easier....meaning, he shoots officer with taser (or drive stuns him) and while the officer is incapacitated he gets his service weapon...NOW WE HAVE A PROBLEM!!! So to those who are now trying to say and "spin" the, why can police use deadly force if a citizen has a taser...thats why...joe blow walking the street doing dumb stuff isn't armed with other weapons for the taking!!!

Then you say yeah but it was 2 on 1...obviously your not aware that not all police officers are physically dominant. The "ALL CREATED EQUAL" mentality has forced departments into hiring those who CANNOT defend themselves on the street but have a college degree and passed the exam to be a LEO. We have affirmitive action laws and MUST hire not based on ability but on pure looks. We have people who watch WAY to much TV and think they want to be cops, get hired and CANNOT do the job thats required of them....so people get the job..BUT when their thrust into these situations CANNOT handle them properly. So many people are quick to say 2 on 1 means the cops should have the upper hand, but many of you have never dealt with a guy fighting whos on roids, pcp, lcd, heroin, crack, meth, etc....they feel no pain, they have no sense of reality, and they have zero concern for their actions.

I am almost 6'1 and 255lbs. Played college football and served in the Army for quite a few years...I am athletic and well versed in hand to hand..but guess what I STILL USE MY TASER!! Why, because society has pushed me in that direction. 10 years ago without tasers cops handled things 2 ways...shot the suspect or beat his ---!!! People back then understood if you fought with or resisted police you got your --- whooped, paid the fine, saw the judge and thats that....these days if a LEO my size, or any size does that..its AUTOMATICALLY police brutality, no matter the situation...someone will cry foul...so how do I avoid that...taser...the taser is the happy medium...I don't have to go hands on and worry about that outcome, and I don't have to end someones life by shooting them.....

Bottom line is...not everyone will ever agree with the SPLIT SECOND choices we have to make. They will sit on the couch, in the chair, or wherever they choose for hours or sometimes days and pick apart the situation...then they will open their mouths with an opinion....not an opinion based on experiance, not an opinion based on knowledge, not an opinion based on facts...but rather an opinion based on mere emotion and attitude.

Sorry if I rambled...I just woke up...

Originally posted by thegdfather


The man was asking for something and was resisting arrest. But still 3 on on 1 and the guy ends up dead? Is that justified? It's not like he reached for the officers gun.

www.kpho.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

How would you have handled it if you were a police officer?

1 on 1 perhaps while the other officers held your coat?

Safer for the bad guy to get taken down quickly.
Less harm for him as well as the officers involved.

Doesn't take much of an imagination to see that the next step up by the bad guy was to go after the officers gun.

Being drunk or on drugs is no excuse either.
I don't buy into the "he didn't know what he was doing" PC crap.

Granted, we need more news that hits on the truth rather than listen to the sensationalist main stream media.

From APC: I wish one of the officers would have died from the shock. Unfortunately the lesson would likely have been lost on them.

You wish one of the officers would have died?

I thank God every day for the officers we have protecting us from the scumbags.


Since you apparently have a strong dislike for police officers, who do you call when you have a problem?

Originally posted by thegdfather
Im not judging them at all. All I am saying 3 against 1 is never a fair fight, it just seems like death is a little too harsh of a penalty for this guy for what he was doing. Stealing metal flower holders? He sounds like he was probably under the influence making him even that more difficult to deal with so it is hard see what was the best option available. ESPECIALLY since we weren't there.

LAW AND ORDER does not demand a "fair fight". Being intoxicated is no excuse. For such a petty offense, he should have submitted peacefully. I know it is hard to submit to harsh authority when you are full of the sauce from personal experience, but common sense dictates that you will receive better treatment if you do.

That he would rip out the taser probes and turn the gun on the officers, while holding three police officers at bay indicates an escalation of force was necessary to secure the suspect.

if pepper spray and tazers do not always work on combative drugged offenders that are not shooting at or trying to knife arresting officers there has to be another method of subduing them other than a 9 mili or 357 round----what ever happened to that 12 gauge shot gun officers had/have in their cars-----they can be loaded with a variety of different shells----there must be a non lethal, incapacitating round that would cripple the offender rather than kill him?

or maybe every cop should have a k-9 with themselves although i think if i was the cop i'd probably get so attached to my dog that i wouldn't want to take the chance of seeing him get hurt by a drugged resistor.

I've been very against police use of violence for a while, however it seems to me this one was justified. Imagine coming across that scene, the man has a taser and is near your friends, he might reach for one of the officers guns next. You have a choice, run towards them and try and tackle him or draw your weapon.

In the time it takes to run to him he might have started to reach for one of the officers guns, in which case it's already to late for you to get yours out in time and one of your friends might die. Personally i'd have done he same, got out my pistol and used it.

Justified i say.

What ever happened to cop's being MEN enough to handle a drunk? Most cop's in the old days would have simply jumped on the guy and subdued him. They would have been ASHAMED to shoot a man simply because he was difficult to put down and cuff. Most old time cop's did not mind a fight now and then as it proved that they were real men and could handle anything without using excess force, it was a matter of pride. Now they have ZERO pride.

If three cop's, with all the mace and tazers and batons they carry cannot take down one man then they need to get some real men back on the streets and get these cowards out of service. Any cop that is afraid to fight and instead MURDERS one of us because they cannot get their dainty hands ddirty should be arranging flowers for a living and stay off the streets. This is NOT the first cxase..God knows how many people have gone to their graves because some sissy cop refused to get down and dirty and take a risk: Today the cop's want a risk free environment for themselves!! Imagine that!!

Does anyone here recall the video and story about the man who was in an accident and was burned terribly? He was delirious, naked and his skin hanging off his body...he was out of his mind with pain and shock and was walking toward the cop's who arrived pleading for help. When he would not stop walking a COP SHOT HIM DEAD. A naked man that was obviously crazed with injuries and burns simply cannot comprehend stopping so he gets shot. The cop that did that deserves to be taken out and stood up against a wall and shot himself: He is a filthy murderer no matter what excuse he gives.

Today we are seeing the dividing line: it is going to come down to US vcersus THEM, and you thug pig lovers out there had better wake up and smell the bacon wafting into your life soon. A cop may very well kill you so he does not have to use his hands or take any chances at all...fell safe yet? Being served and protected enough? Sickening...just appalling. Maybe one day we will wake up and hear about how cop's like these are simply disappearing....one day they don't show up for work and everyone wonders what happened to them....then they dig back and see that they had murdered and gotten away with it but some agency of divine intervention had removed then threat to us all forever.

Think that would get their attention? Think maybe that if murdering cop's were disappered altogether that the others would take notice and act accordingly? Maybe, maybe not, but in any event if a cop will use deadly force when a simple use of GUTS would sufficed he deserves to be eliminated from the force one way or another for the safety of us all.

Remember, prevention is better than problems!!

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


I concur.

Anyone who knows me here, also knows that I am no longer on the side of law-enforcement in many cases. That being said, there are realities that go with the job that they do.

K-9 units and non-lethal shotgun ammo are not available all the time. While there certainly are cases when officers are detrimentally impatient, and would rather shoot the perp than wait for backup, this does not appear to be the case here. The officers have not only a right, but an obligation, to keep their person and equipment secure.

reply to post by eyewitness86


While I certainly sympathize with your position, this case is not quite as clear as three cops subduing a drunk burgler. The perp was in fact armed, with one of the officers' own weapons. This shows a critical escalation of danger. Not only was the perp willing to and capable of disarming the officer, but willing to use the weapon as well. A "kill or be killed" based decision does not seem unreasonable in this particular case.





[edit on 6/8/0808 by jackinthebox]

Godfather,

3 on 1 doesn't mean diddly. I have been in situations where 5 to 1 was almost not enough. It took 5 large men (I'm 6'1" 240) to just get the college football player cuffed and into the back of the car. Luckily all this kid wanted to do was wrestle with us and never tried to grab anyones firearm. Funny thing was he wasn't even mad or growling. He just wanted to fight, period. He also made us hurt like hell the next morning and he only had a small scratch on one knuckle!

Zindo

reply to post by thegdfather


If the cops knew it was a non-lethal taser... Why would they use lethal force??

Questions: Can a Cop shoot you dead...

1. If you fart while being handcuffed... in otherwords an abrupt loud sound ??... and the cop blows your brains out instead of taking a step back... what is the statute of limitations on the (F.F.) or flatulence force?? People are dying!

2. If you look at a cop too long... then, unexpectedly scratch a itch in your crotch... do they have the right to shoot you 30 times in the chest?? Yes/No??

3. If the cop is arrogant and cocky off the bat....because he's working overtime... for example: his shopaholic wife... should one curl into a fetal position to avoid being blasted??

4. When cops join the force after a life of -- "I've been bullied all my life... now I'll show you syndrome," Does this play a factor in being irresponsibly trigger happy??

5. If you are pulled over, and you reach for a bible on your seat.... Will it stop the cop from killing you??

reply to post by ZindoDoone


I got jumped by a football team at a keg party once, and I won. Of course, I had to do some gruesome damage to a few of them as an example to the rest of them of what sort of fight they had just stepped into. I did not use the knife I was carrying that night either, though I did consider it.

reply to post by Level X

2. If you look at a cop too long... then, unexpectedly scratch a itch in your crotch... do they have the right to shoot you 30 times in the chest?? Yes/No??

Legally, yes. The eye contact could be construed as a terroristic threat, and therefore any sudden movement might then be interpreted as a deadly threat.

3. If the cop is arrogant and cocky off the bat....because he's working overtime... for example: his shopaholic wife... should one curl into a fetal position to avoid being blasted??

It's also a better position if they just decide to kick the living crap out of you.

5. If you are pulled over, and you reach for a bible on your seat.... Will it stop the cop from killing you??

Not at all. Holy water and crosses and garlic don't work either.