Obama. A View From Scotland

Wow. I love ATS but sometimes the ignorance of people who THINK they know what they are talking abourt astounds me. First, to our ATSer from Scotland, I'm sure you realize that despite what he maky think Jester does not speak for us as a nation.

On a national level this has nothing to do with psychology or 'core self-esteem'. Self-esteem. That principal is based on individual psychology. Not on collective psychology (usually referred to as sociology). Our current administration and their various cohorts have put this country on a path of absurd jingoism. We are part of a worldwide community --- like it or not --- and we have to behave and act that way.

I can understand why the world view of the USA has gone into the toilet (thanks to piss-poor and utterly misguided foreign --- and domestic --- policies). But unlike Jester, I do care. And the majority, the VAST majority, of this coutry's citizenry also care. We will never likely see eye-to-eye with every other country and there will likely always be enemies against whom we will need to defend ourselves. But we cannot expect to be prosperous and secure if we continue to run roughshod over other countries' national interests. The United States hasn't always been the 'big-kid-on-the-block' and some people, it would seem, lack the historical perspective to understand that.

Why do so many in the sick side of the left care what europe thinks? I don't give a rats-behind what the world thinks especially europe.

Obama is a marxist and will flush this country for his elitist arrogant buddies.

When I can vote to elect any prez in europe then I will listen to thier stupidty about ours..............

God save the queen, but flush the rest of the EU......................

The monarchy has to be one of the worst things in the UK,God save the queen my arse,if i was PM i would get rid of the monarchy all together...Anyway im going off topic...but seriously...America is in a mess right now...britan heading down the same path...we didnt even get to vote for Gordon Brown...We didnt get to vote for the new EU Constitution,complete Centrilization of power in brussels is only a few years away....

Jesterman.....winners don't often stop to tally the dead either. Who really wins?

Originally posted by JesterMan
As an American all I can say is that we don't really care what the rest of the world thinks.

Speak for yourself. You do not speak for all Americans. And you certainly don't speak for me. I am ashamed at where Bush has taken this country and I am embarrassed to think that people in other countries think we support that madman.

When the primaries were over last night one thing I thought was what a great statement the nomination of Barack Obama, a man that is 180 degrees out from Bush, says to the rest of the world. Bush has ruined our reputation in the world. We are PART of the world and our country has to get along with the other countries, treat people with respect and diplomacy. Not run roughshod over everyone. I am ashamed at the war-mongering and bullying the Bush administration has represented to the world and for the first time in a while, I'm REALLY proud of Americans for making such a strong statement.

Thanks to the OP for your perspective. I couldn't agree with you more.

Benevolet heretic on my best freind list. One sentence. Flame me.

[edit on 6/4/2008 by jpm1602]

Of course Frank. Many of us know how messed up we are. We admit and admonish ourselves. It is a turning point.

This Scot has only seen Mr Obama on MSM. I think he wishes coalition troops home from Iraq as soon as possible ... but apart from that I couldn't tell you a thing about the domestic or foreign policies he wishes to implement in office. Either he's totally bereft of new ideas, is inadequate when putting them across or maybe I just haven't been paying much attention to stateside politics.

And why should I ? I thought Scottish politics set a new standard by which tedium could be measured ... until I watched CSpan one Sunday lunchtime (just where do they get some of their callers from ? maximum security twilight homes ?)

But hey. He's black, he's photogenic and he's not George. And after eight turbulent years that might just be good enough to give him the keys to the White House.

But I get the impression there's not much to him at the moment, there's a distinct lack of substance. He hasn't dazzled me with his oratory in the way great leaders of the past have bewitched their audiences. I'm not so much thinking of JFK or MLK, or even the homespun pearls of wisdom from RR in the early eighties. I'm thinking more about FDR during the Depression ... because it's exactly that economic uncertainty Mr. Obama is about to inherit. And it's a measure too of how great the next President will have to be in order to lead during what will be a very difficult period for the USA and the West in general.

Has he got "it" ? Mm. I'm undecided. Perhaps he'll grow in office. Or perhaps instead his Presidency & government will collapse under the weight of economic absurdity. We can but wait & see.

First let me say that I love my country served in the Army and so on blah blah blah right

I couldn't tell you whether or not we are the greatest country on earth
I can tell you I have met a lot of good people from a lot of great places

As far as Obama goes I don't think he will be all that different he just doesn't have the political capitol to exercise the changes he wants to make and if he does manage to accomplish change it will be at the expense of the American tax payer and small business owner I like Obama's ideas and have zero issues with race but I think it is all just a little unrealistic..

People are fickle over here they have decided they want change and while that is all good all change is not good for all people , I for one don't want state healthcare I will pay my own thank you very much I don't want higher taxes thank you very much and I won't have gun control in any way shape or form and I don't even shoot... I also don't want people telling me what to drive especially some kid wearing a che Guevara T-shirt (no offense to anyone)

I think if he can accomplish what he says it may be a good thing but I believe that what will happen is a deep divide in American politics and ideologies..

Originally posted by geocom
...all change is not good for all people...

This is quite true. I'm not an Obama supporter. I've always favored Ron Paul. What I am hoping if Obama gets elected is that the changes that get implemented are good for us and bad for the people that have been raping this country for the last 8yrs. The level of corporate piracy that has gone on under the pretext of 'making us secure' is unprecedented. Maybe... just maybe there is hope that we can return to the fundamentals of this country. State healthcare? Gun control? Don't even try to go there. We're not buying it. We have a contract with the people running this gig and it's called the Constitution. Let's follow those rules for awhile shall we?

OMG !!!
see !!!

all i said was foreign policy can sometimes make it hard to be american in the world.

i have american friends, mates over there as we speak, its a wonderfull place, full of wonderfull people. my thread wasnt a dig.

we all know Bush took America to war on Lies...and for oil, that, is a fact.
we can argue all day, but the facts are there...so, foreign policy disaster.

i think Obama is a REAL man.
my hope is he brings in something new, something different.

my thread wasnt a dig at the USA, just an off the cuff comment.
as things stand, Bush has been a disaster for the USA.

Obama, i feel, will have a JFK way of doing things.

world peace can be achieved by talking, i think Obama will talk more.
Bush said "i am a war president"..thats his problem.

i intended no disrespect to anyone here

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


i agree with you..heretic... obviously people don't believe in the "redress of grievences" in the first amendment. we as a nation should always try to improve. we the people, have a duty to critisize our leaders, when we think they are not working in our best interests. and the "love it or leave it" crowd reminds me of the 1960's era politics. i'll critisize anyone i d-mn well please. and the neocons have ONLY, ONLY, served the very richest in our nation and they don't give a d-mn about the rest of us. and this isn't even hidden anymore.

and be careful if bush calls you "bud"...in his circle of friends, that stands for B roke, U seless, D umb. any bets on when FOX news station or one of their talking heads will "accidently slip" and call Obama n-gg-r? they won't be able to help themselves, because you know it's on the tip of their tongues.

The most likely place for a racist slip of the tongue will be from Michelle Obama.

Ok, I'm a British citizen, there I said it... however, I am deeply ashamed of the leadership of my country, I think Blair has been nothing other than an evil hypocrite who has sold-out on the traditional values of his party, which has effectively turned it into nothing more than a sham Conservative (Republican) government.
Now, I'm more than content for a foreign citizen to criticise my country and its policies, yeah we have issues, there's no harm in pointing them out - for some of the posters on here, there seems to be a knee-jerk reaction towards any criticism of the US, even where that criticism is valid, although, there seems no reasoned critique of any invalid comments made about the US, just comments like "Don't tread on me" etc, well "Why not?", you've been treading on most other nations for a damn long time and the only reasons in 100's/1000's of cases are furthering democracy (capitalism).
I think Obama will greatly change the international public perception of America for the better, whether or not this is "realistic" or true, well... probably not, but, it may be a small step towards making the world a safer/friendlier place... for one thing, it would maybe ease-off the perception of US citizens as a bunch of racist-rednecks - which is still quite a common perception for a lot of non-US citizens, that they're all bigotted Klansmen... you see, this is one positive.
I don't realistically think that any political leader in this day and age is going to make any real, long-term change for the better, I honestly believe government is all about furthering the needs of big business etc and that any perceived "changes" will just be PR or "giving and inch to take a mile" type scenarios.
However, Fudge-it, I honestly don't care, I'm just here as a spectator, I just want to get it over and done with and party whilst we still have time, the world is doomed, we just waiting for the insects to take over and I'm sure they'll do a better job. It's all just an illusion to keep us busy and buying stuff, to keep the economy ticking over.


Rant over, wow, I got more worked up as I typed that... I'm going for a cigarette and then readress this...

Yeah, I stand by what I wrote, we're going to hell in a handcart, Obama may be a small chance for Obama to redeem itself in the eyes of the general populace of the world communtiy and perhaps of the governments of the world communtiy, perhaps. I would be concerned about the view of th UK that is held by the rest of the world, because it would be nice if we (as a world) were heading towards peace as opposed to more strife. I wouldn't think it'd be a good idea to be viewed as the bully of the world.

Anyway, bestness and peace to you all.

reply to post by shauny



Quite directly,

What do you exactly think Obama would do that would make the rest of the world "like" us more? I would like specific things he would do. People seem to think he is all about "change". What precisely is he going to change?

Originally posted by acura_el2000
wow those last two responses were HORRIBLE, just shows you why people in other country's look down on the US.

Dammit I agree 100% with you.

The man was trying to say 'look we don't all hate you' in a round about way. Jumping all over him was mean.

reply to post by shauny


Hey shauny..Thanks for this thread. I for one am pleased to see that there are other world citizens that see the same strengths in Obama as do I.

Never mind the rude behavior of some..skin color matters to the few backward and frightened still left here in the U.S. I suspect those same rude people would cheer if we brought back the witch burnings.

BTW I was stranded in Scotland during 9-11 and was made to feel right at home by all Scotts. It's beautiful there too.

reply to post by shauny


Shauny,

I applaud your right to comment on what you feel from the heart.

To answer your question on why Obama bashers on ATS feel a foreigner has no right to comment on a "Global event" that will ultimately effect you and the rest of the natural world??

THEIR DAY IN THE SUN IS OVER!.... THEIR TEAM IS LOOSING!!

Remember, it sometimes takes a person on the outside to call it correctly.

You are witnessing their usual tantrums... Stomping out of the room... loading their rifles... & Staring into mirror's like meth-crazed RAMBO'S now they hear the world (and you my friend) are vocalizing events regarding this Bush'd-up country. How dare you they say!?

You know America has always had it's dirty (NOSE, PAW'S & SATELLITE'S) in everybodies affairs. But shear arrogance over Obama won't let them play second fiddle. "How dare you look into our glass house!" But what they don't realize is... the current administration (Bush) has left the door wide open. Right??

Remember, to them... America can start a war placing the entire world on edge... and for some strange cocky reason NO-ONE should be allowed to question our motives--- and that means you!

In this case: They don't want you guy's (as they view you from a dominate position) peering in... to see a black man on his road to be president . They feel if you see this... the white American man's image around the world will be tarnished forever. ------ But who really cares right??

These freedom fighters for 'no-change' are always on attack mode and want to control America's outgoing image at all cost. But there is hope on the horizon with Obama. Their swashbuckling hero's of oil & war are loosing... and loosing badly with the votes of the American people!

Slip-Sliding away!!



[edit on 4-6-2008 by Level X]

Originally posted by jpm1602
He is the IN man. Will take a beaut frim OZ. Get over it. It's a done deal.
The next US president WILL be a black man.

We need to remember one thing in this case. To me it's ironic how people call Obama a "black man", himself included. The title "Black Man" is one of convenience. In order to understand what I mean, one must understand Obama's racial background and a little history. Accordning to what I have read, Barak Hussein Obama's father was (is) a black Kenyan, and his mother a white US citzen. In the late 1800s, Southern and border state and local governments began enacting laws aimed at racial segregation. These laws became known as the Jim Crow laws. Many of the laws enacted, targeted people of mixed race, which I'm sure we all will agree defines Mr. Obama's racial status. Some of the laws were written to discriminate against people who were as little as 1/32 Afro. The laws were written to legally define who is black and who is white.

So I say that the use of the term "black man" to define someone of mixed race is convenient based on today's politically correct environment. And the reason I say that is this - the descendants of former slaves have worked too hard to gain the freedoms promised by our constitution to ALL US citizens. They have struggled for over 100 years to win rights which should have been granted them along with whites upon our declaration in 1776. And for Mr Obabma to call himself "black" based on definitions intentionally designed to discriminate against him - is to me convenience, hypocritical, and demeaning to anyone of mixed race who has any intelligence.

As for the OP. Thank you for your view point. I'm sure those in other countries who have a mind are interested in our politcal system and the out come of our elections. Unfortunately, those very out comes do have an affect on you and the world as a whole. Bush has made some serious mistakes. I'm not ashamed to tell you I voted for him twice. I will also tell you the reason I did so. More than any other, it was for our national security. You see with all of his faults as our president, whether by his work or not, we have not had another terrorist attack since 11 Sept 2001, and inspite of what you may have read or heard, I do not feel that any of my rights as a US citizen have been violated for the sake of our security.

I'd love to visit your country one day. I have an inherent bond with Scotland and Ireland for some reason. My wife is related to the Rosslyn St. Claires in some manner, and Leon Uris wrote 2 wonderful books about Ireland called Trinity and Redemption. I am told my roots lie in both. Someday maybe....hopefully while we are still friendly

[edit on 4-6-2008 by Hugues de Payens]