The Disasters Darwinism brought to Humanity

reply to post by melatonin

Intelligent design as currently pushed in the US is just creationism.

But you are guilty of rebranding creation to be something its not.

I'm talking about the search for truth.. not US school board issues

I don't think it is. What is creationism? That the world id 6000 years old? Most IDers do NOT contend that. Dr John Lennox doesn't. Former atheist apologist Dr Antony Flew now believes in ID because of the evidence.

Your definition of creationism is as biased to me as you accuse my definition of Darwinism as being to you. Thing is you really do fit my def of Darwinism to a tee and I don't believe in YEC.

You are more prejudiced in your re definitions than I..

Darwinism has never implied atheism. Indeed, darwin himself was never an atheist. It's a pretty restrictive term anyway, as evolutionary theory is more expansive than mere evolution by natural selection.

Well thanks to atheists just like you mel it does now. Words "evolve" over time. Get it? You have only yourself to blame. Dawkobot.

Why are you so ashamed of its association to atheism now anyway?

even showed the clear contradictory position you hold earlier, but you ignored it of course.

1. Darwinism is an atheistic worldview.
2. Darwinism leads to Nazis.

But nazis came from a predominately christian country which toured Europe stealing deckchairs whilst wearing belts labelled 'Gott mitt uns'. 1 and 2 are contradictory. Duh! Get a clue please.

You need a clue. Guess what mel? Jesus was Jew!!!!

not contradictory.. Hitler just used the church for propaganda on his people he was not a believer in Christianity he hated it by his own words.

Christianity, of course, has reached the peak of absurdity in this respect. And that's why one day its structure will collapse. Science has already impregnated humanity. Consequently, the more Christianity clings to its dogmas, the quicker it will decline.

He sounds just like you do...

Hitler clearly used Darwin and science as his rationale. He hated Christians just as much as Jews. His spiritual beliefs were pagan and occult.... most of his top staff were atheists ie Darwinists..



[edit on 6/13/2008 by Bigwhammy]

FYI This is a book by Richard Weikart, professor of modern European history at California State University - exactly on the topic of this thread.

FROM DARWIN TO HITLER:EVOLUTIONARY ETHICS, EUGENICS, AND RACISM IN GERMANY

by Richard Weikart

n this compelling and painstakingly researched work of intellectual history, Richard Weikart explains the revolutionary impact Darwinism had on ethics and morality. He demonstrates that many leading Darwinian biologists and social thinkers in Germany believed that Darwinism overturned traditional Judeo-Christian and Enlightenment ethics, especially those pertaining to the sacredness of human life. Many of these thinkers supported moral relativism, yet simultaneously exalted evolutionary "fitness" (especially in terms of intelligence and health) as the highest arbiter of morality. Weikart concludes that Darwinism played a key role not only in the rise of eugenics, but also in euthanasia, infanticide, abortion, and racial extermination, all ultimately embraced by the Nazis. He convincingly makes the disturbing argument that Hitler built his view of ethics on Darwinian principles rather than nihilistic ones. From Darwin to Hitler is a provocative yet balanced work that should encourage a rethinking of the historical impact that Darwinism had on the course of events in the twentieth century.

web.csustan.edu...

So you still want to push the darwinism is atheist materialistic evolutionism, that leads predominately christian jew-hating nazis. Heh. Consistency ain't ya strong point.

Weikart is another member of the shell-gaming creationist disco institute. It's amazing that a country influenced by a form of theism that has fostered hatred and attacks on jews for over a thousand years, had a theistic leader who also used biblical literalists like the racist de Gobineau to justify Aryan superiority along with the Luther for a bucketful of anti-semitism (both darwinists, of course, rofl) but never really mentioned darwin, justified the attempted genocide of these purported king-killers.

Darwin's fault of course. He went back in time and made da joos get him up on the cross!1eleventyone!!

You're funny, whammy. How's tophat these days? We're all awaiting the next installment you know where.

[edit on 13-6-2008 by melatonin]

Originally posted by melatonin
So you still want to push the darwinism is atheist materialistic evolutionism, that leads predominately jew-hating christian nazis. Heh. Consistency ain't ya strong point.

Weikart is another member of the shell-gaming creationist disco institute. It's amazing that a country influenced by a form of theism that has fostered hatred and attacks on jews for over a thousand years, had a theistic leader who also used biblical literalists like the racist de Gobineau to justify Aryan superiority along with the Luther for a bucketful of anti-semitism (both darwinists, of course, rofl) but never really mentioned darwin, to justify the attempted genocide of these purported king-killers.

So you attack the country and refuted none of Weikarts information. Strawman fallacy at its finest.

Darwin's fault of course. He went back in time and made da joos get him up on the cross!1eleventyone!!

Oh you think Darwin was a time traveller now?

You're funny, whammy. How's tophat these days? We're all awaiting the next installment you know where.

Huh? I have no idea what you are talking about. I saw someone called that posting jokes here a few weeks ago. It was pretty funny but I don't know him.

[edit on 6/13/2008 by Bigwhammy]

ON the OP:: The Disasters Darwinism brought to Humanity = Nazis

Hitler always wanted people to believe he came up with his own ideas (delusions of grandeur) - so he never mentioned other thinkers by name but he borrowed from many of course.

Concerning whether Hitler's ideas were Darwinian: Hitler believed that population pressure causes a struggle for existence between organisms that leads to evolutionary progress. He also believed that this struggle occurred between human races. This is completely Darwinian (yes, Darwin did use the rhetoric of progress), and Hitler often described evolution in Darwinian terms. Also, like Darwin, Galton, and many Darwinists of his day, Hitler believed that intellectual and moral traits are heritable.

Hitler's anti-Semitism did not derive from Darwinism, but many of his ideas did have Darwinian roots: racial struggle, eugenics, euthanasia, population expansion, need for living space. If one reads writings by German Darwinists during the early 1920s (Fritz Lenz, Erwin Baur, Eugen Fischer and many others), one finds many of the same ideas that Hitler was promoting.

Just this morning I was reading an SS booklet entitled _Rassenpolitik_ (Racial Policy), which is overtly Darwinian. It overtly discusses the struggle for existence, natural selection, and it even discusses mutations as the source of variation. It also uses the term Hoeherentwicklung (higher evolution) constantly.

www.arn.org...

[edit on 6/13/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Oh, just for you, as you give me the occasional epic lul.

In this compelling and painstakingly researched work of intellectual history, Richard Weikart explains the revolutionary impact Darwinism had on ethics and morality.

Darwin's theory said nothing about ethics and morality. He was focused on the origin of species.

He demonstrates that many leading Darwinian biologists and social thinkers in Germany believed that Darwinism overturned traditional Judeo-Christian and Enlightenment ethics

Yet germany was a christian country with a history of anti-semitism who toured europe with 'gott' on their side.

especially those pertaining to the sacredness of human life.

Darwin's theory didn't speak to the 'sacredness' of human life. Luther did think that jews were a bit less than human. Amazingly the christian and theistic nazis also dehumanised jews.

Many of these thinkers supported moral relativism, yet simultaneously exalted evolutionary "fitness" (especially in terms of intelligence and health) as the highest arbiter of morality.

Eugenics? I think american christians had a soft spot for this as well. Indeed, eugenics has a long history (even Plato) well before darwin or Mendel (the eugenicists liked him). Creating 'desirable' traits has long been of interest to humans. And Darwin was most certainly not necessary for such ideas, in fact, his theory suggested natural selection was the important evolutionary mechanism, not artificially selecting those for extermination or breeding, for example, apparent christ-killers.

Again, evolutionary fitness speaks to reproductive success, not morality.

Weikart concludes that Darwinism played a key role not only in the rise of eugenics, but also in euthanasia, infanticide, abortion, and racial extermination, all ultimately embraced by the Nazis.

He also played a key role in communism, capitalists and uber-conservatives in the US, like D'Souza, and of course, dancing,

He was quite the dude. And I'm proud to an FCD and a member of his posse, protecting his ideas from the demagoguery of people like you.

He convincingly makes the disturbing argument that Hitler built his view of ethics on Darwinian principles rather than nihilistic ones. From Darwin to Hitler is a provocative yet balanced work that should encourage a rethinking of the historical impact that Darwinism had on the course of events in the twentieth century.

Aye, when Hitler and his brownshirts sat down to plan Kristalnacht for Luther's birthday, they read 'origin of species' for inspiration. Indeed, on page 39 of origin it clearly said 'go forth on Luther's birthday and pester the lying king-killing jews'.

You're still funny. You do realise that people are laughing at the likes of Weikhart and Ben Stein?

Anyway, you're boring me now. Your foxtrot is naff. Catch you when you have some new moves.

:shimmy:

[edit on 13-6-2008 by melatonin]

Originally posted by melatonin
Oh, just for you, as you give me the occasional epic lul.

[
Darwin's theory said nothing about ethics and morality. He was focused on the origin of species.

"Impact on" ethics and morality mel... nice try

He demonstrates that many leading Darwinian biologists and social thinkers in Germany believed that Darwinism overturned traditional Judeo-Christian and Enlightenment ethics

Yet germany was a christian country with a history of anti-semitism who toured europe with 'gott' on their side.

And whats your point? You refuted nothing he said.

especially those pertaining to the sacredness of human life.

Darwin's theory didn't speak to the 'sacredness' of human life. Luther did think that jews were a bit less than human. Amazingly the christian and theistic nazis also dehumanised jews.

Yes it does because instead of being created in Gods image (sacred) Darwinists made man to be just an animal.

Many of these thinkers supported moral relativism, yet simultaneously exalted evolutionary "fitness" (especially in terms of intelligence and health) as the highest arbiter of morality.

Eugenics? I think american christians had a soft spot for this as well. Indeed, eugenics has a long history (even Plato) well before darwin or Mendel (the eugenicists liked him). Creating 'desirable' traits has long been of interest to humans. And Darwin was most certainly not necessary for such ideas, in fact, his theory suggested natural selection was the important evolutionary mechanism, not artificially selecting those for extermination or breeding, for example, apparent christ-killers.

Again you refuted nothing he said Darwins influence on the Nazis just changed the subject.

Again, evolutionary fitness speaks to reproductive success, not morality.

Again implications on morality. It influenced their thinking. Thats a fact.

Weikart concludes that Darwinism played a key role not only in the rise of eugenics, but also in euthanasia, infanticide, abortion, and racial extermination, all ultimately embraced by the Nazis.

He also played a key role in communism, capitalists and uber-conservatives in the US, like D'Souza, and of course, dancing,

He was quite the dude. And I'm proud to an FCD and a member of his posse, protecting his ideas from the demagoguery of people like you.

I don't have a problem with Darwin himself or even his theory. The problem is the bastardization of his ideas by Darwinists like you and Hitler.

He convincingly makes the disturbing argument that Hitler built his view of ethics on Darwinian principles rather than nihilistic ones. From Darwin to Hitler is a provocative yet balanced work that should encourage a rethinking of the historical impact that Darwinism had on the course of events in the twentieth century.

Aye, when Hitler and his brownshirts sat down to plan Kristalnacht for Luther's birthday, they read 'origin of species' for inspiration. Indeed, on page 39 of origin it clearly said 'go forth on Luther's birthday and pester the lying king-killing jews'.

You're still funny. You do realise that people are laughing at the likes of Weikhart and Ben Stein?

Anyway, you're boring me now. Your foxtrot is naff. Catch you when you have some new moves.

:shimmy:
[

Nobodies laughing at people like you and Hitler though.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Nobodies laughing at people like you and Hitler though.

Yes, whammy.

Using me and Hitler in the same sentence is indicative of your approach. Be careful dude, I has my soldiers with their 'gott' and their gonna go holocaust on your ass.

reply to post by Hollywood11


Might want to actually read Darwin's material before regurgitating the regurgitation of someone who's also formed an opinion without ever reading the source.

Darwin's evolutionary theory is a thinly veiled repackaging of the Genesis lie that man could be like God; it is a insidious poison and pseudo science. Having long ago cast aside the theory as unsustainable in light of the second law of thermodynamics, or the entropy law of decay; that even before becoming a dedicated Christian.

I realized that his concept of “survival of the fittest” had turned man into nothing more than a better adapted organism or animal, who therefore had no moral responsibility to a creator. Liberated from the constraints of “truth” and the moral absolutes of “right” and “wrong”, that “truth” coming from a creator might dictate, man was free to become the god of his own universe with no accountability. It was this theory that fueled the fires of NAZI concentration camps and is currently fueling FEMA Detention Center mentality of the enlightened elite.

reply to post by melatonin


Yeah well you use satire make funof God and Jesus and its funny ha ha - but if I do I'm intellectually dishonest all of a sudden. Double standard at its finest.

Sieg heil Darwinist... you have so many similarities... read Hitlers words..

Being weighed down by a superstitious past, men are afraid of things that can't, or can't yet, be explained — that is to say, of the unknown. If anyone has needs of a metaphysical nature, I can't satisfy them with the Party's Program. Time will go by until the moment when science can answer all the questions.

[edit on 6/13/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by SGTChas

I realized that his concept of “survival of the fittest” had turned man into nothing more than a better adapted organism or animal, who therefore had no moral responsibility to a creator. Liberated from the constraints of “truth” and the moral absolutes of “right” and “wrong”, that “truth” coming from a creator might dictate, man was free to become the god of his own universe with no accountability. It was this theory that fueled the fires of NAZI concentration camps and is currently fueling FEMA Detention Center mentality of the enlightened elite.

Yes very true. Morality is not relative the idea that it is comes from Darwinism ie atheism. Its influence lead to conclusions like Man is an animal there are no God given human rights.This the way Darwinism influences all the mass murdering dictators to do their killing.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Yeah well you use satire make funof God and Jesus and its funny ha ha - but if I do I'm intellectually dishonest all of a sudden. Double standard at its finest.

lol

Your intellectual dishonesty is in your approach. I don't really want to focus on the personlities, dude. I don't even want to discuss your BS arguments anymore.

Get a new one. It was rancid to start off with.

Sieg heil Darwinist... you have so many similarities... read Hitlers words..

Yeah, it's amazing. Even people who were insane can sometimes speak sense.

Seig Heil!

ABE: just for fun, lets take another tack, I'm interested in the outcome.

If we accept that Darwinism was an inspiration in some way to nazis. So what?

I mean really. So what?

It's a description of nature. Whether you like it, or theistic nazis used it to kill 'christ-killers', it doesn't matter. It's a simple description of nature, and nature couldn't give a fig about your fantasies about its ethical implications. It has no impact of its truth. Similarly, chemistry and atomic theory doesn't give a fig that making explosives and nuclear weapons can kill people and lead to irradiated Japanese.

It just is. You can't change reality. What do you suggest? Lie and ignore reality?

Probably, heh.

[edit on 13-6-2008 by melatonin]

I have read the writings of some of the largest backers of Darwinism within the NAZI party; forced reading by my protégée and mentor - an Orthodox Messianic Jewish Rabi, Dean and well respected Professor of Ancient History, Sociology and Philosophy - as he worked for six years to redeem the soul of a broken and paralyzed (later healed by God - HOW I KNOW HE LIVES!) soldier. It is he that showed me how they reveled in the liberty Darwin's theory gave them to purify through extermination the master race. Anyone who thinks otherwise is dangerously misinformed, or actively participating in the misinformation; just read Mein Kampf.

reply to post by melatonin


Melatonin: Still bringing sense to the senseless

I would have descended into a frothing, gibbering state of rage by now if I were in your shoes. Keep up the good work.

Where does Darwinism lead? Have you toured Sajmiste, Treblinka, Ravensbrück, Buchenwald, Auschwitz Birkenau, or one of the other thousands of NAZI concentration camps? Have you smelled the still nauseating smell of the ovens after decades? Have you viewed the piles of teeth, shoes, dolls, and other personal items of the helpless victims of social engineering at its finest? Life is cheap to those who think that men are no better than apes - at least some men.

Have you seen women with their breast cut off, belies opened by a bayonet C section, children used for footballs and whole villages tortured to death - except the young women who were first used; all brought about by communism's extension of the NAZI doctrine of "useless eaters"? Have you sir? That is where Darwinism's logical conclusion leads.


[edit on 6/13/2008 by SGTChas]

[edit on 6/13/2008 by SGTChas]

[edit on 6/13/2008 by SGTChas]

reply to post by SGTChas


Could you pause the slobbering for a moment? You're almost pornographic in your paroxysm over Darwin = Nazi, and you clearly will not allow yourself to apply more than a couple brain cells to anyone who doesn't lavish your opinion with praise.

The Nazis had a extremely poor understanding of Darwin's theories. In fact, their understanding of evolution is pretty much identical to what YOU are claiming as evolution. So if you want to go comparing people to Nazis, might want to start with a hand mirror.

natural selection's "survival of the fittest" is not a mandate for predation and extermination of someone you have decided to be "unfit". That's absolutely counterintuitive - see the "natural" part of natural selection?

The Nazis may have used evolution as an excuse. But then they also used religion and politics as an excuse ("They killed Jesus! Communism was created by Jews! They have funny noses!") but this does not equate the two at all, despite your desperate, raving, froth-flecked attempts to portray it as such.

[edit on 13-6-2008 by TheWalkingFox]

reply to post by melatonin

If we accept that Darwinism was an inspiration in some way to nazis. So what?

I mean really. So what?

So what? Ideas have consequences...

A few reasons. Human life is sacred. We did not evolve from soup. Man is not just animal. To reduce him to animal level makes ideas like the Nazis had seem acceptable. They treated people like lab rats and cattle i.e. animals.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
So what? Ideas have consequences...

A few reasons. Human life is sacred. We did not evolve from soup. Man is not just animal. To reduce him to animal level makes ideas like the Nazis had seem acceptable. They treated people like lab rats and cattle i.e. animals.

That is a very pathetic answer. Oh dear! The emperor's goolies are clear for all to see.

Reailty doesn't care about your blatherings about sacred things and acceptability.

It doesn't. Reality doesn't conform to your fuzzy feelings and wishful-thinking. Nature can be harsh, but we are not necessarily slaves to nature. I think it's rather unfair that gravity means planes will fall from the sky when suffering critical failures. Problem is, gravity couldn't give a poop about my empathic response.

Try it sometime - go jump off a cliff and whine about gravity's ethical failures in the hope gravity will feel bad for you, perhaps jesus will save the day, probably best to rely on an emergency parachute - at least it is capable of intervening.

Perhaps go and whine about germ theory and the fact it means, rather than many diseases being bad spirits possessions and mojo-failures, it's little bugs killing kids. Nasty men now even know how to kill people with anthrax. That's immoral. That's wrong. But it's reality. Accept it.

Maybe we should deny gravity and physics because theist maniacs were able to use the consequences of its knowledge to fly planes into buildings killing thousands. Perhaps jesus might have just nudged the flaps and sent them into the sea. Nope, gravity and physics just did its thang.

As humans, we have the ability to act against nature. Whether we do that has nothing to do with whether we accept darwinism or even theism. To think that because nature is like x, means we must act like x is the naturalistic fallacy at its core. But I think fallacy is your middle-name.

Perhaps some are slaves to their own nature (i.e., pathological liars and genocidal madmen), rather than us all being 'moral' slaves to the knowledge we uncover about nature (e.g., darwinism, atomic theory, gravity).

In sum, you are arguing from consequences - argumentum ad consequentiam. 'I don't like the consequences, it just can't be true' - another logical fallacy.

And finally, we can also see the clear consequences of other ideas. Those that come from the writings of your own little book in the actions of these damned nazis (anti-semitism, ayran superiority, chosen people, even divine genocide). Lets burn the book! Lets hide the ideas!

Checkmate!

See ya around, like a lemon.

[edit on 13-6-2008 by melatonin]

"Hitler’s government relied heavily upon Darwinism, especially the elaborations by Spencer and Haeckel. As a result, a central policy of Hitler’s administration was the development and implementation of policies designed to protect the ‘superior race’. This required at the very least preventing the ‘inferior races’ from mixing with those judged superior, in order to reduce contamination of the latter’s gene pool. The ‘superior race’ belief was based on the theory of group inequality within each species, a major presumption and requirement of Darwin’s original ‘survival of the fittest’ theory."

Technical Journal 13(2):101–111
November 1999

What an amazing state of altered reality some live in... Let me stop "slobbering and raving" for moment to recount some facts: 1. Nazi concentration camps were not just about Jews, they were filled with all that were deemed non-desirable; to include Christians, Slavs, and political dissenters of all stripes. 2. Communism, no matter WHO started it, was used by warped minds to enslave not much unlike NAZIS; communist propaganda fliers in South America at times repeated Darwin, Spencer and Haeckel "survival of the fittest" and the necessity to assist "natural selection" arguments (for the sake of the oppressed workers of the world) as justification for their ethnic cleansing too - AS COMMUNIST PROPAGANDA OFTEN DID AROUND THE WORLD.

Perhaps if you had gone in to a few of these villages, you too might be motivated when some suburb armchair social engineering fount of esoteric wisdom spouts such nonsense. Kind of sharpens your prospective when you've buried a few hundred victims' of the self anointed ones' use of the theory of group inequality within each species to get rid of the undesirables. It WAS pornographic, and ALL attendees of Darwin's theory should be made to read the propaganda fliers as they take tours of the villages and the death camps; might get you out of your armchair and motivated too.

(Hey, look at me! I can use adjectives too!!! I'm just not RUDE)


[edit on 6/13/2008 by SGTChas]