Creationists Will Destroy ATS

Maybe localy the Muslims haven't try to convert you, but in the rest of the world thats not precisely true. Oh and Al Jazeria is definatly not christian or jewish TV. If you can, go look at they're Saturday morning cartoons for kids,LOL It will scare ya!!
Zindo

reply to post by Astyanax


Awesome thread here And I agree with some of your points I'm not for suppressing any topic whether you are for or against.

What I Am Sick of is the gang like or clan like mentality that I see on thread after thread, I have often wondered if they are actually one person with multiple accounts. The way they control or dominate a thread congratulating each other for debunking the other side, the stars and flags and the profile comments I'm sure there are u2u's involved in there attacks.

Really just how many does it take to do this to threads 3? 4? but it seems to go one and on. I have witnessed this for a little over a year, but only one side seems to get banned.

reply to post by AshleyD



Your question isn't really fair. In essence, your asking me how I would have handled a discussion that I didn't agree with versus a discussion that I agree with. Obviously I would handle them differently, as I'm sure you would. Its all great debate though. I had fun and learned some things as well. That's what its all about, right?

i wish we could pull off one liners here...

the fact is we were created

i could post up a bunch of links,but you would have to want to take the time to look at them.

the truth about us,earth,our history,life and the universe is sooo amazing...wow.

we are all very important

take care


edit= i do read all the posts..i'm here to learn as well...
i bet you will feel something about this story

www.youtube.com...

and

www.youtube.com...



take care

[edit on 30-5-2008 by Skipper1975]

[edit on 30-5-2008 by Skipper1975]

Originally posted by Astyanax
Is the End nigh?

Now, I'm not suggesting that creationists are conspiring to take over the board or anything; despite my years on ATS, I'm not that paranoid.

Ummm, yes, you did.

You said we used "Pincer" attacks.

These pointless threads are created and sustained by a new breed of ATS member, the type who gets his information about FTs from TV 'documentaries' and science-fiction shows like The X Files. The quality of discussion has plummeted.

WOW, why don't YOU
start some good threads, if EVERYONE else's are so stupid?

The creationists, though, are another matter. They are the people I referred to earlier, the ones who ended their quest for meaning in life by immersing themselves in some degenerate offshoot of the Christian religion.

Degenerate offshoot?
From what? My Christianity is not comparable to another?

However, this is dangerous work -- many of my favourite members have been banned because they took on the creationists. The reasons for their banning were all different,

Just like I've asked someone else.
Who was banned, and why? What did we do to them?

reply to post by Mad_Hatter

I think that's an underlying issue that contributes to the idealogy of the OP. Many Christains are abusive of their religion, even towards other Christians. I'll be the first to point this out. Still, we can't let our personal feelings take away from what could be very good discussions on an interesting subject.

Secondly, you need to ask yourself why are those that believe so sincerely in Creationism hanging out in a forum where the attitude is at times openly hostile towards their views. The answer is of course that they're here to hear both sides of the issue. There are of course the obvious trolls (Let's not name names), but most here honestly want a open discussion on the topic. Else they would post in forums were everyone believed the same.

Lastly, don't be down on yourself if some disagree or no one responds. Just because you don't get comments that say "Right on! Flagged and Starred" doesn't mean that you didn't make a great contribution to the discussion or that Creationists might not be mulling over your thoughts. You have to be able to put your thoughts out there and just let them go. Believed or not they require the reader to understand and process the ideas mentioned. Look at the words of this 6 year old girl. She obviously made an impact even if you disagree completely with her. Solid contributions to the topic are always seen and remembered no matter what side they lay on.

Who wants an easy opposing view anyway? Steel isn't sharpened by going through butter. It gets sharper when you run it against another tough object. Of course that requires that the steel be at the proper angle or attitude when it hits the opposition.

Originally posted by Mad_Hatter
Your question isn't really fair. In essence, your asking me how I would have handled a discussion that I didn't agree with versus a discussion that I agree with. Obviously I would handle them differently, as I'm sure you would. Its all great debate though. I had fun and learned some things as well. That's what its all about, right?

I think it is a very fair question. For instance, I get sick to death of Israel-bashing threads but understand I have no right to accuse Pro-Palestine members of trying to hijack or destroy ATS. It's just the way it goes. So you might disagree with creationism but accusing them of destroying ATS, hijacking threads, or acting as a forum gang is pretty unfair.

The question was aimed due to the fact people are supporting the OP due to their dislike of creationism. However, I wonder if they would have been supporting a thread stating something about hushing liberal views, political views, atheistic views, skeptical views, etc. Their tone would most likely change to what creationists are saying here: Everyone has the right to believe and defend what they want on here.

As for the comments regarding Christians being the largest group trying to convert. I won't disagree with you there- at least in the U.S. However, I've never seen anyone trying to convert me like the atheists do. Christians are accused of trying to convert through fear while I see atheists trying to convert through arrogance and belittlement. Just my two cents.

I too used to be a great lurker of these boards and this site pratically single handely endowned me with all the knowlege of how to debate and evalute further that i posses today.

Just watching the intellectual serves and volleys of some members back then was pratically an art form in it's own right you would certainely leave the site that day learning at least something new or evalutating how you percieve things and your train of thoughts.

There's few faces i recognise these days but does that mean one is biased to only acknowleding the posts of members we know???..no it doesn't a point is a point no matter who makes it and a debate is for everyone and the more the merrier in my opinion anyway.

Theres always been outstanding members on ATS who no matter what race or idealogical creed who would engage in debates show their point and listen and take on board what is being said by everyone, They will go out of their comfort zones and are prepared to exercise new trains of thought.

Even on occasions certain threads that have ended with unanimous agreement weirdly by all parties taking part in it which is a strange and rare event.

It seems though theres more insults and a breakdown in calibre of debates and communications. Maybe not enough people are reading the excellent beginners materials offered by this site and the sites TOS?? I don't know.

In my opinion it's not solely the creationists faults as they're are and have been many geat creationist members as with every other group/label we can think of and theres not so great members in ever group/label again what counts here is not your belief but the way you conduct yourself as a member of this site.

There's alot of my way or the highway type threads nowadays that then get reduced to insults, But it's not too much a big deal every member has been prone to faulter and make an insult now and again and the moderators always take care of it when need be.

What's worrying though is the blatent refusal of some people to basically 'DENY IGNORANCE' everyone is welcomed to their beliefs but as in another thread people are taking insult to others opinions when they aren't even being addressed or twisting peices of what being said to just basically start a 'war' and to harrass members.

It's as if the whole debate revolves around them, Now everyone posses an ego it would be ignorant to suggest we're all perfect infalliable beings but it's exasperating to see debates being turned into games of who has the bigger 'gang' basically.

It's disgusting to promote ones beliefs and then refuse to let others air theres, Too demean people as something or other to try and devalue them and thus there opinions.

Too think that the majority opinion is the right one and because people have simply left a debate that you've 'won' and are a superior person to them.

It just seems that theres more of this going on this than before.

/Rant Over





[edit on 30-5-2008 by SR]

At the end of the day... what does religion solve?

Nothing...

Creationism is based on a few fact-less books that are still doing the rounds, people will still defend those idea's with violence and hatred and igorance...

This backwards mentality should stop, we are in the 21st century and millions and millions of people still die through war, violence, disease, poverty etc... and all the god-botherers can do is say 'oh well it's god's will' and crap like that.

When will people wake up and actually help each other instead of spouting off a few verses from their book of choice.

We need action and not words to solve our world's ills.

Mr L

A conscious athiest. x

reply to post by Astyanax


I enjoyed reading your opening posts. They are evidence that there´s still plenty of quality to be found on ATS (contrary to your assertion that there is not).

As much as Im in awe of your analysis and tend to agree on many of its points, I take issue with the following:

1. As dbates already mentioned, not all believers in creationism are christian or even religious. Im an example: Strictly anti-religious but nevertheless believing in intelligent-design and a supreme being.

2. The "Forum Gang" that will supposedly "destroy ATS" consists of about 6 people of the evangelical/missionary type. Some of these people I have come to appreciate as interesting contributors to ATS. Most of their preaching-message is in the Forum "BTS Faith". Take note that 6 people of a certain opinion do not make the entirety of ATS and that the Origins and Consp. in Religion Forums are not the only Forums here.

3. Imagine getting rid of these specific posters: What would be left of these forums? Activity would decline and you´d have nobody to argue with when you want to blow off steam. Or put differently: What is supposed to be discussed in these Forums if not Creationism, Origins, Religion?

4. You seperate between the "Godly" and what you call FTists. But at least 50% of the conspiracy-literature out there originates in Christian communities.

5. You ask for the staff of the site to be more strict with a certain group of people. The job of the Moderator is not to aim at opinion but at the way opinions are expressed. Rules are enforced not according to the views someone has but according to what constitutes civi and respectful communication.


Despite my objections to your opening posts, I enjoyed it a lot.

I would agree that I find it annoying when Christians bring their beliefs into everything; however, the author of this thread seems to have a problem with it because of his strong disbelief in religion, more than anything. It sounds more like the lament of an irritated atheist, than anything else.

Tell me this: how is a religious person's use of their religion as a basis for their replies any different than those who use evolution as a basis for their replies? Both are beliefs about origins than cannot be proven, but have to be taken on faith. One is faith in a higher power, other is faith is the scientific establishment. In a way, the religious people are more "fringe" than the atheist, which is likely part of what brings them here. I think the rise in "religious" people that you see has more to do with a growing disillusionment with the science/humanism based "religion" than a planned infiltration. Most people have a limited view of things, and see it as being either science or Christianity, so when science has faltered and strayed from truth, they swing the other way.

edit for spelling

[edit on 5/30/2008 by saturnine_sweet]

Hey everyone,

I just wanted to drop in and give kind of a third party opinion on this whole topic. I will say that I can't decide which side of this Creationist vs. Evolutionist/Science debate I take, because neither have been proven beyond all doubt. That said, I'm not here to take either side. I often consider my vantage point somewhat ubiased because I try to look at and accept all directions of an argument. I've read these forums for quite sometime (nearly 2 years) but only recently have I felt comfortable enough with my knowledge to post. You don't have to take this post to heart, but at least hear me out:

The problem I often see in threads isn't always the Creationist, nor the Evolutionists, Skeptics, Ufologist, or what have you.. It is the way people approach debates. Instead of approaching topics as DEBATES, they approach them as ARGUMENTS. I'll agree with the OP to the point of saying, topics are going downhill and a lot of garbage is repeated and what not. I rarely see debates where all angles of opinion are respected by all involved in the debate. Instead of listening to what the other person has to say, analyzing it, considering where the opposition is coming from, and making a thoughtful and legitimate rebuttle.. I notice that a lot of posters will read the title of a thread or a few sentences from a post and respond accordingly. Because of this, you often see several wasted posts because no one cared to read the other person's post thoroughly and with an open mind. This often results in miscommunicated arguments, unsupported knee jerk responses, lack of credible sources if any at all, and the worst of all is the insults and belittling of the opposition's opinion. Which in turn leads to similar responses from the OP's or the opposition.. It's a vicious cycle.

The process allows for very little, if any, real intellectual DEBATE. It turns into a name calling, finger pointing, mud-slinging, "ARGUMENT" at a child like maturity level that more often than not results in zero progress.

As the OP stated, arguments used to be well sourced and intellectual. I feel that to make an argument, you must be able to provide credible sources to back your claims and I think many people would agree with this. A certain respect and understanding must exist between all members of the debate too. Presently, I am hard pressed to find a thread where any subjects are supported with credible and or NEW information or sources. Nor can I find many where the "mutual respect" I speak of exists. Many threads often turn into what I have already discussed and many are just repeated and redundant threads which also turn into ARGUMENTS as opposed to DEBATE.

The point I'm trying to make is this:

No matter what your beliefs are and no matter how much knowledge you possess concerning a subject, you MUST RESPECT and at least try to UNDERSTAND the opposition's point of view to the best of your ability, even if you do not agree with it entirely. After, and only after those steps are taken are you able to make a respectful and intelligent rebuttle to the subject of debate. A mutual respect for eachother's beliefs must be present in order for us to peacefully and intellectually coexist.


EDIT: Fixed a couple errors.


[edit on 30-5-2008 by ZiggyMojo]

WOW, well told story, however, I cannot understand why any one group would want to silence another.

If you don't like what they have to say don't read it.

You know the argument by now, and the outcome, stop beating a dead horse.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
NEWSFLASH: Asty

I think ATS values freedom - even creationists opinions - even megalomaniac atheists opinions too - why suppress human rights? Is your science so threatened Asty? Afraid of the light of exposure?

This is my philosophy:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

In Contrast

Your rant reminds me of a book I read once...



Your Struggle?




[edit on 5/30/2008 by Bigwhammy] [/quote

This post sums it up.Believing in a a man in the sky =Good.Believing we are that man in the sky=Bad.The Constitution is a brilliant piece of work.Too bad most americans dont adhere to it.Or they adhere to it when it suits them and ignore it when it doesnt.I was just thinking about this today.What hypocrisy to have this quote,

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

And then have a flourishing slave trade until 1865 and some say that goes on to this day.And to top it off to PUBLICLY condemn those who have ideas different from what the Vactican says.I mean cmon just recently the Pope says its ok to believe in Aliens?I mean are those of religious faith that afraid to speak their mind that they need the Pope to speak for them?This was Jesus' arguement with the JEWISH temple priests.You dont need the church of priest to connect with God.God has no use for money yet religions collect billions of dollars a year and dont pay a dime in tax.I cant speak for other synagogues but why does someone who donates more sit closer to the Torah?Or the Bible?This type of behavior is what turns me off of religion.Fanaticism and extremism are also what turn me off of religion.Mel gibson in his anti-semite rant claimed that jews caused all the wars in the world and that the jews killed christ.No mel they didnt but RELIGION has caused most of the wars throughout history.If jesus does come back like they claim i hope he kicks everyone ass for acting this way and tells everyone to smarten the fock up!

i think the OP should go and apply for a grant to research this.
originally posted by the OP

Then came the internet.

All of a sudden, FTists could easily communicate with each other and the rest of the world. They could network, and spread their theories wider.
The internet has spread FTs far and wide.

And then....oh no......its those keyboard terrorist religious terror argueing creation terror terrorist terror terrorers, scary God people terrorists.

The invasion of the Godly

As the years went by, I noticed the complexion of ATS changing.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Bring in the ATS patriot FTist only act to stop the terror terrorist creationist of terror , scary God people from talking to each other about their terrible terror of creation bomber matyre discussions....ahhh terror. Scary God people, make me question myself, scared little Darwin guy. Terror Alert High Creationist Post Warning. Phew.

www.templeton.org...

In keeping with Sir John Templeton's intent, his Foundation serves as a philanthropic catalyst for research and discoveries relating to what scientists and philosophers call the Big Questions.

As you obviously fall into this catagory you should put in a proposal. Here is a working Title for You.
Digital Egg VS Digital Chicken
Who was here(ATS) first. The nerds on the net who believe this nerd called Darwin, that were spawned from a primordial dial up connection. Or the religious geeks who believe that the internet was in fact built by god in 6 days who was then upset on the 7th day when everyone wanted broadband and so kicked them out of the internet cafe of edan.

Go here to make a proposal www.templeton.org...

Our Philosophy of Grant Making

Dear Potential Grantee of the John Templeton Foundation:
We look for bold ideas that engage the "big questions" and draw in multiple disciplines. The division of labor and increasing specialization in most fields means that some of the most interesting, difficult or profound research questions don't get addressed. In a contrarian spirit, we try to help give great minds the space and opportunity to address significant questions and issues that cross disciplinary boundaries.

p.s. God luck with the grant OP. Also Maybe we should change some aspects of ATS to from Starred and Flagged to Scared and Flogged. If a Creationist thread Scares you, you can have them flogged. What do you think.


[edit on 30-5-2008 by atlasastro]

reply to post by Astyanax


Dear Astyanax I think your statement is well thought out and spoken, here is the kicker! and I encourage you to respond to my reply.

I for the most part am a creationist. I might look at things a little diff then some cretionists but, there are a lot of people who bring scientific discussion and thought into their thoughts about creationism. It is just like evolutionists...there are few people that have the same theory of how, when and the time frame in which evolution took place.....This is not an argument for creationism.

What I am saying is although the dynamic of this forum will always change with new groups of people. Nobody is purely an evolutionist or creationist, (maybe a literalist) and I myself have found myself siding with evolutionist on certain or specific issues especially where physics or cosmology is concerned, on time lines.

I think a lot of the haughty fire exuded by skeptics and debunkers is often taken away by the fear of being ejected from this forum, and on more then one occasion I have found myself rewriting a POST because I knew I would have been sent to the file 13 area.

The other thing is although I have seen myself as a loner on certain POSTS, at which I will defend and even become quite hostile about, I have also sided with or ganged up on individuals, I think that is nothing but the nature of the beast here at ATS. Perhaps I could pretty much copy your thread here and insert whatever group, category, or type of belief as who I think is bringing and end to ATS, but I dont think it will come to fruition. I believe ATS is here to stay and that the opinions and topics will vary and the arguments will remain plentiful.

Originally posted by Mad_Hatter
reply to post by jamie83

 

I never said "Creationists" were closed minded...I said Christians were...man, people sure do like putting words in my mouth. I myself believe in a supreme conciousness....

[edit on 5/30/2008 by Mad_Hatter]

Whether you said Christians or Creationist my point was still the same.

Calling Christians "close-minded" is and of itself an example of close-mindedness, i.e., passing judgment and smearing an entire group of people based on your own personal and ill-conceived conclusions.

Which is the essence of the point the OP is raising in this thread. The underlying premise of the thread is that creationists are close-minded/wrong and are destroying ATS, when in fact, judgments like those passed by the OP are what would destroy ATS faster than any sub-group who posts here.

this isn't aimed at anyone in particular, i feel there's just way to many posts about the quality on ATS dipping, and not half as many people actually posting the quality stuff that they claim used to be here.

honestly, if your here long enough that you remember a time when there were fewer members and the opening posts took half an hour to read, then you've got a heck of a lot of knowledge to pass on by now, so get going.

when i joined ATS first, the only thing i knew about conspiracies was what i'ld seen on the x-files and a few documentaries, i read ATS, i followed links, i went down rabbit holes and heard about ten sides of every argument. now i know crap that they know i know and i know crap they don't think i know but i think they know that i know that they don't think i know. it's got to be the same with other members that have been here a while.

OP, i have to say, for a man that misses the old school ATS members and the verbal table tennis and logical mangles they performed, you can't half manage yourself when you want to. so the fifth option, as always on ATS, if the creationists are driving you nuts, fill three posts opening a thread about why exactly your right, not why they're wrong. give ATS more of the good stuff you love.

Most of ATS acts in groups, whether they want to believe it or not. People of like minded opinions only star and flag each others posts, do everything possible to get people of the opposing view punished, and the majority of people here are uninterested in a conversation and are more interesting in preaching to the choir. It goes both ways.

I have noted there is a definitive formula to getting your posts highly praised, starred, and flagged on ATS: bash Bush (for anything, it doesn't really matter), bash the government (again, for anything), act hysterical and declare the end is nigh (for any reason), talk about how the economy is horrible, or create a post bashing some demographic that ATS dislikes (no reason needed, they'll still praise it). These are the threads I see where people work in groups to shove their opinion across - I have yet to see any of the fundamentalists get even close in comparison. They may be a problem, but there are many larger ones...


[edit on 30-5-2008 by ALightinDarkness]