Creationists Will Destroy ATS

reply to post by undo


You painted that!? Holy cow! You did! I see your artist signature in the painting.



Great work, Undo! I can't even draw a stick figure. Excellent work!

Originally posted by JPhish
You've been proven wrong, based on your own words, several times already. . .

Actually, no I haven't, but you have. Like I said, I knew you'd forget the past 10 pages of posts.

And, you are still yet to provide any evidence of it. I can, if you'd like, give you a link to my post with your flaws, and that was only 2 pages worth of them.

The only flaw that I have commited so far in this thread with the information being posed to me was my assumption about the emotional state of gigatronix. As for your "raised athiest and family is athiest statement", it still stands to be answered and I will continue to go off presumptions since you find it so difficult to correspond.

What we need, is an impartial moderator, to come on this thread and decide;

Well, I'd hate to burst your bubble, but any moderator that doesn't realize that an eternally or even currently unknowable and invisible thing with attirbutes it a complete contradiction and a scam, you might as well be sitting next to P.Y..

"Who is right, and who is dead." -Westley

I've already dug your grave for you. You can't admit to your own defeat of faulty logic, so you need a moderator to come help you admit it? Sad. Thought we were mature grown ups.... wait nvm, you proved you were an immature confused creationst with the first post.

Originally posted by Astyanax
I think it was the (not entirely unintelligent) Arthur C. Clarke who said that Haldane was one of the most intelligent people he knew.

I'll be the judge of that. Someone elses opinion about someone has nothing to do with my experience of them.

Haldane - along with R.A. Fisher and Sewell Wright - is justly credited with creating the "Modern Synthesis" of genetics, morphology, and evolutionary biology.

Many people who have done great things on this planet have also immolated their veridicality with the manifestation of absurd comments.

'my... suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose.'

At some point in time. If it is queerer than we can suppose, when why make suppositions? That was basically the outline of my last post and this entire thread and conversation with JPhish and random cohorts. I have neither beliefs nor suppositions, neither opinions nor religions. I am a dithyrambic vicissitudinious iconoclast, the emotional paracletes of the past find no solace or sound reasoning within me and are repelled like two opposing ferromagnetcs. The nomial of a man or famous figure from which a quote comes is as much drivel until found to be impermeable as the invisible and unknowable God with attributes.

Have a read, and see whether you still think he's a flaming idiot afterwards.

I don't mean to be a jack-ass, but I don't have the time. I am much too engrossed in myself.

[edit on 18-6-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

reply to post by AshleyD


thanks! i have a folder on the other comp with the step by step process of how i painted it, if you're interested, i'll upload it to my server and let you review it. took about 20 hours, give or take sleep, food, etc. anyway, your avatars are beautiful. you have a great eye for color and design so i dont believe you can only draw stick figures. it may just be a mental block, cause you are definitely artistically inclined!

I don't mean to be a jack-ass, but I don't have the time. I am much too engrossed in myself.

okay, i'll read it and let you know what it says. there may be a time differential between my reading it and the review. of course, you'll have to trust that i've read it accurately and am not adding my own bias.

reply to post by undo


I'll take whatever you report back with at face value, wheteher you ad a bias spin to it or not.

It's not the contents of the knowledge that matters to me, nor if its 100% parallel to the original copy, what makes all the difference is the logic and science involved in the content of the knowledge.

Just as with the Shrodingers Cat conversation, I didn't care whether it was the exactitude of content or not, and it wasn't and I knew this, but either way it was still an entertaining exchange.

it appears to be about similarities between the size of biological systems in nature and systems in artificially created things like governments. then it launches into discussion evolution theory, touches on genetics and inheritance, survival of the fittest, natural selection, genetic variation. then it suggests that although some items relating to evolution are biological, some are not, such as physics role in evolution, particularly mutations. then he touches on the rise and fall of forms and compares it to art forms. then he wraps up all those thoughts by saying the only satisfactory answer for the cause of evolution is natural selection.

next chapter is on enzymes. he believes enzymes are the answers to world hunger, if i understand this correctly.

and that's the end of the excerpt.

reply to post by undo


So essentially what he is radiating through natural selection, evolution and comparability of natural systems as opposed to "artificial systems" (I personally call it all natural) is that every current and future action is really an eternal reaction of the "past" and the scope is that everything is an eternally interconnected universal interaction with no one calling the shots, rather just a natural course of precedence.

Thank you, brb. I have to go for just about the remainder of the day. Thx undo.

reply to post by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
You voice some interesting comments, and i think you are very brave in expressing your own personal beliefs on this thread and on a very controversial topic. I have enjoyed reading your posts. You are very thought provoking, which is why people come to ATS.
But as you are free to question the logic of a faith that requires a God, i feel i too would like to question your logic on not requiring one, as in a God being or deity.

I have no beliefs, only knowledge, logic and fact. The physical is not temporary. Its energy sempiternal with neither beginning or end. Its space eternal with neither beginning or end, and so its time. My God is the universe and everything that is of it and that it is of.

Can the physical become infinite in quantity, i don't think it can by your logic. Infinity by definition is larger than any quantitative value. Hence nothing can have already existed for eternity. What about the argument that G*D lies outside of the Laws of nature(redundancy avoidance mechanisms...i know).

You can, in a more simpler manner refer to my God as energy, the universe, existence. My existence is absolutely everything, my God is 100% logical, 100% perfect, and 100% knowable.

Are we not limited as humans. We get the vast majority of our knowledge from our senses, and as these are limited in our reality ,so to is our knowledge. So even if as you say, your knowledge is perfect, it is only a limited sample of the overall, and therefore you may not know that which lies without of our limited and defined knowing. To ignore these limitations corrupts a search beyond these limits leaving you prone to a premature acceptance of your own perfection in logic, and in your knowledge. What you are really saying is this" i know what i know and what i know i believe is perfect. Sounds almost religious to me.

My logic is perfect and it is parallel and based on the existence of perfection, which is existence itself.

If existence is perfection than would we not all be physically eternal. To suggest that there is another state of existence would imply that this existence is imperfect, and so too your logic and knowledge as it would run parallel to your imperfect existence.

They do. It's not an assertion sir, it's a validated fact. 90% of this planet's inhabitants or more have this schizophrenia.

If this is true then it is a logic of our existence and so a valid and evidential aspect of a belief system designed by evolution, to be genetically built by nature to believe in a God or form thereof, the fact that you don't believe in GOD makes you flawed in that design and possibly the ill one.

I worship my existence. I study my existence, I know my existence and therefore my God. I have no faith. I have no religion.

From this quote and others I guess i could argue that your belief defies our evolutionary design. Your are the perfect form for the post-religious world, a single entity self absorbed and isolated from the collective natural design of humanity, a member of the cult of the Individual. Newest religion of them all. The belief in ones self over all other. One within the universe. Selfishness. The Anti-thesis of selflessness or oneness with the universe. Not part of any energy or system but separate, divorced from the energy of the natural existence of humanity and so redundant, useless except for self introspection and the inevitable glorification of itself as its own and its god. Alone for eternity so it seems. But to debase your belief that way would be cruel and unkind and not unlike those posts that do the same to people who believe in a christian G*D etc. I guess you believe what you believe, hey!

If your God is unknowable you can not know anything about it!

I think that many people believe they know god, or strive to know him through the doctrines or what have you. I also believe that to know of something is one thing, to comprehend it is altogether another universe or plane of existence. As has been said before on this thread, we know many things of the universe but do not understand them.. I think the fact that evolution and creation theory cannot reconcile this point of view with each other is why we have these threads. A creationist "knows" god is responsible for creation but has no understanding of God that would satisfy scientific logic or rationality. Science Understands how life has evolved, yet cannot fully know its origins or the origins of the universe that will end creationists beliefs.....And so the debate continues.
And You love it. Admit it. Its probably the only place you can safely come and tell everyone you and your logic are perfect. And you know what, you damn well can. That is the beauty of ATS.






[edit on 19-6-2008 by atlasastro]

Originally posted by atlasastro
You voice some interesting comments, and i think you are very brave in expressing your own personal beliefs on this thread and on a very controversial topic.

I don't voice my beliefs. I'll repeat it again. I only use sound logic (including psychology), tangible knowledge and scientific evidence.

I have enjoyed reading your posts. You are very thought provoking, which is why people come to ATS.

Mucho gracias.

But as you are free to question the logic of a faith that requires a God, i feel i too would like to question your logic on not requiring one, as in a God being or deity.

Sure. Personally you are free to question me about anything, the point when my respect and trust is lost in another is when another becomes delusional and in denial of logic and facts.

Can the physical become infinite in quantity, i don't think it can by your logic.

The physical doesn't become infinite, it already is, already has been and always will be. You don't "think" it can by my logic? Well that statement means absolutely nothing to me. You've not shown where my logic doesn't allow it, you're just voicing your opinion on nothing.

Infinity by definition is larger than any quantitative value. Hence nothing can have already existed for eternity.

You're right, and nothing has existed for eternity and so has everything. By default of nothing existing for eternity, everything is eternal.

Why? Because what is nothing? Try to imagine it. You can't. Try to touch it. You can't. It does not exist. So if you say that nothing has already existed eternally, then you are correct, and because of this there is no place for nothing to exist because it is not something. Thus its eternal existence, or rather eternal non-exstence, allows only for the eternal existence of everything. Imagine the unvierse as a bubble, what is outside of it? Nothing? How can nothing be acting as a force to keep it as a bubble? It's not. It's own forces also do not restrict it to a bubbular geometry. Since there is nothing outside of it, then we know that it expands eternally, but is not in a state of expansion, rather already is an eternal expanse.

Like I said, there is no absence of energy. The only way an immeasurable presence exists (absence) is as eternity.

What about the argument that G*D lies outside of the Laws of nature(redundancy avoidance mechanisms...i know).

This is a scam. You'd never know this. This is the exact same situation as attempting to make me believe that you somehow know the attributes of the invisible and unknowable god.

Are we not limited as humans. We get the vast majority of our knowledge from our senses, and as these are limited in our reality, so to is our knowledge.

The only knowledge that matters is the knowledge of energy, physicality and tangibility. Claiming to have any knowledge of that which doesn't exist, except for admitting that it doesn't exist, is a contradiction and a mental deception.

So even if as you say, your knowledge is perfect, it is only a limited sample of the overall, and therefore you may not know that which lies without of our limited and defined knowing.

And like I said, if there is anything that we can not ever know and it will never produce evidence for us, EVER, within our ability to receive through our 5 senses and any technology that it is capable of producing, then this thing is irrelevant to our reality and our defined way of knowing. Any God that created us to not be able to know it, yet to give a book to Humanity in which its attributes are explained and oxymoronically might I add, must not want to be known, probably because it doesn't want us to figure out that it's the biggest deceiver of all time... unless this God wants us all to become liars and scammers, at which point being created in its image I could understand... which would lead me to believe that it must have a god of its own that also lied to it.

To ignore these limitations corrupts a search beyond these limits leaving you prone to a premature acceptance of your own perfection in logic, and in your knowledge.

I agree. So stop ignoring these limits and your search beyond will not be corrupted. To dismiss the boundaries of the Human reception as the conduit that it acts as is to have a corrupted search beyond, where invisible and unknowable things with attributes rule your life and where you fall prey to hypocritical creeds.

The knowledge is ever growing, the logic applied, induced and deduced to, of andd from that bank of knowledge is perfect and always will be because existence is perfect, and to study and know its perfect energy through is to become perfection.

What you are really saying is this" i know what i know and what i know i believe is perfect. Sounds almost religious to me.

I don't believe it is perfect. It is perfect. If existence was imperfect it would spontaneously cease to exist, but every second passes with the symbiotic perfection of forces, laws and principals coherently, interconectedly and synchronistically flowing in a continuum of flawlessness. Every stroke of my finger exerts energy into the keyboard transferring information at the speed of light through gold wiring and circuit boards onto the screen in front of me, which is not web hosted by me, and ultimately seen by you. Every molecule of oxygen, nitrogen and carobon flowing through the air, dispersed around my body because of my movements, reacting instantaneously to my actions, but already knowing I was going to be there. Never does the universe make a mistake, its perfect happen is eternal.

If existence is perfection than would we not all be physically eternal.

No, it is as it is. This is the perfection, everything about it. Our energy is physically eternal. Everything that makes you up has always existed. You are, in essence of energy, an eternal being. Your body and your mind a vessel for the one eternal consciousness. The death of your individual body real, but the death of your energy an illusion.

To suggest that there is another state of existence would imply that this existence is imperfect, and so too your logic and knowledge as it would run parallel to your imperfect existence.

You can suggest all that you want, but it won't change the perfection of objective reality.

If this is true then it is a logic of our existence and so a valid and evidential aspect of a belief system designed by evolution, to be genetically built by nature to believe in a God or form thereof, the fact that you don't believe in GOD makes you flawed in that design and possibly the ill one.

And I am genetically built to know that the idea of this God's time is over. The only idea of God that exists is the one eternal universe. I was designed to be perfect, and so I will be.

[edit on 19-6-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

Originally posted by atlasastro

From this quote and others I guess i could argue that your belief defies our evolutionary design.

I have no beliefs.

Your are the perfect form for the post-religious world, a single entity self absorbed and isolated from the collective natural design of humanity, a member of the cult of the Individual.

I have no individuality.

Newest religion of them all. The belief in ones self over all other. One within the universe. Selfishness.

Whether you accept it or not, you are always one with the universe. Some people are better than others at certain things, but we are all equally as important as the thing next to us.

The Anti-thesis of selflessness or oneness with the universe. Not part of any energy or system but separate, divorced from the energy of the natural existence of humanity and so redundant, useless except for self introspection and the inevitable glorification of itself as its own and its god.

Actually the invisisble and unknowable is completely divorced and separated from physical reality and the universe. I am always a part of the eternal system, never can I be separate. Yes, we are all God and all our own God. God is the universe. That means your body and your mind as well, they are not separate from the universe.

Alone for eternity so it seems. But to debase your belief that way would be cruel and unkind and not unlike those posts that do the same to people who believe in a christian G*D etc. I guess you believe what you believe, hey!

I have no beliefs. It's really not hard to follow me repeatedly stating that. There is only one eternity, but this eternity can not be alone (all-one), because it is not an all, it is an eternity of one. Alone only comes about through the illusion of separation. The one eternity can not be separated from anything. It is with you always, you with it always, within you always, you within it always, and is you always and you are always it.

I think that many people believe they know god, or strive to know him through the doctrines or what have you. I also believe that to know of something is one thing, to comprehend it is altogether another universe or plane of existence.

People don't know god. They have all these attributes about god that are flawed from a book written by god that is flawed by god's logic. There is no other universe or plane of existence.

I think the fact that evolution and creation theory cannot reconcile this point of view with each other is why we have these threads. A creationist "knows" god is responsible for creation but has no understanding of God that would satisfy scientific logic or rationality.

That's because their God doesn't exist. They don't know God, they faith in contradiction and ignorance.

Science Understands how life has evolved, yet cannot fully know its origins or the origins of the universe that will end creationists beliefs.....And so the debate continues.

There was no origin of the universe. It is the eternal being.

And You love it. Admit it.

Sometimes, other times it's a drag, but I feel obliged to spread the word of truth. There's no reason to sit on this knowledge and logic for myself. I'd rather turn you all into the universe (gods).

Its probably the only place you can safely come and tell everyone you and your logic are perfect. And you know what, you damn well can. That is the beauty of ATS.

No. It comes with me everywhere I go. It is what and who I am. Yes, it is the beauty of ATS. I just wish more would impliment perfect logic. It's there for the taking whenever they become brave enough.

[edit on 19-6-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

The only idea of God that exists is the one eternal universe.

i'd say that's just evidence of eternity, not evidence of God.
evidence of God is a bit more personal than an impersonal universe.

Originally posted by undo
i'd say that's just evidence of eternity, not evidence of God.
evidence of God is a bit more personal than an impersonal universe.

Do you exist of the universe? Is your personal relationship with god built through your existence of the universe? Yes. The universe is not impersonal, rather it is personal. So your evidence of God is found here. You can't even claim to know god without existing here.

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences! I am also a creationist (but NOT a 6000yr old earth fanatic) for purposes of this thread!

Explanation: As to the topics statement "Creationists Will Destroy ATS". Hmmm sounds a little oxymoronic to me but jokes aside I feel I must offer some of my own advice into the mix.

1stly To new and old members alike whatever your creed, I suggest If you can't handle the heat you stay out of the kitchen. And ATS/BTS is certainly a kitchen with multiple pots on the brew at anyone time and its easy to get burned in such an enviroment if one is ignorant of kitchen protocols such as don't go sticking your fingers in a boiling pot to taste it!!!ect. The fittest and most robust Memes will survive!

2ndly If you stay on topic and obey ATS/BTS rules (you read them when you signed up! OR did you???) regardless of ones POV's (religious,spiritual,political,other ect) and research what others post and research and SUPPLY the information sources you cite in your own posts and utilize the Ignore button when required but still give people some chance to apologize if you are offended and leave everything else to the Moderators then I'm sure your time here will be pure edutainment!!! You don't get moderated or banned for NO reason and if you do get moderated or banned then its your own fault and having your mates complain that their argument ability has been diminished by your loss does nothing to improve their or your arguments! Its called being a sore whining loser and "should" be beneath true ATS/BTS members. Attack the arguments proposed not the arguer! Intolerance breeds Ignorance!

3rdly To have a right to anything you must 1st extend that right to others (whats good for the goose is good for the gander!) and Astyanax appears to want to have himself censored not that I want that as clearly I to have participated here under what he created and fully advocate his right to have a rant even if I totally disagree with his O.P.!

Personal Disclosure: I personally feel this entire thread would be better placed under the Rant's forum as regardless of any religious connotations its a Rant pure and simple.

P.S. Pastor Jesse Duplantis once said "the Bible does not make sense. It makes faith!" and I agree with him fully on this matter.

Also when I hear hooves I expect a horse but it could possibly be a zebra or less probably a pegasus or a unicorn but all 4 or more can't be ruled out until I actually confirm whatever it is by a more direct observation.

Become totally disillusioned and finally see everything for real. Think Globally Act Locally Feel Internally.DENY IGNORANCE 1st.

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences! I am a Creationist (but not a 6000yr old earth fanatic) for the purposes of this thread.

Explanation: I suggest we can all have our cake and eat it too!

1stly let me talk about the omnipresence because without anything you got nothing. Both The universe and God are Omnipresent (ie they are everything that exists everywhere at all times!). There is no dichotomy here. Therefor no arguments are required to be traded between the 2 or more opposing camps on this point.

2ndly let me talk about the omniscience. Both the universe and God are omniscient (ie they both know everything about themselves at an intimate and implicate level). Again there is no dichotomy here. Therefor no arguments are required to be traded between the 2 or more opposing camps on this point.

3rdly let me talk about omnipotence. Both the universe and God are omnipotent (being everything and knowing everything they both have the knowledge and resources to be all powerful). Again there is no dichotomy here. Therefor no arguments are required to be traded between the 2 or more opposing camps on this point.

4th and final let me talk on creation. What can we say about existence befor the big bang ?(age of universe to date =13.7 billion years old give or take 1% as interpreted via studying the Cosmic Background Microwave radiation
and it shows that the universe had a creation point. lets assume my 1st 3 points I made are valid, then lets assume the God side of the equation is no different in this 4th point and therefor God also was created! WHAT BY I
hear you cry. Hang on its coming ), well what can actually be definitively known? In this state there exists only 100% uncertainty which is a funky nonlocal quantum state which allows for the creation of wave/particles out
of nothing. which wave/particles were created... I suggest the that the most certain and possible of states came into existence which was then conditioned by what was actually most probable state of that possible state which had its origins in 100% uncertainty (or the nothing . call it what you want but a rose by any other name is but as sweet!) and that this actualized wave/particle state is both the universe and God. here both God and the universe Dynamically bootstrap (quantum tunnel) their virtual selves out of an 100% uncertain static state (please remember we are talking about a time and place before time and place had impetus and existence of their own!) into a 100% certain dynamic reality. Creationists could be comforted by the fact that creation happens and non-creationists could be satisfied that the universe or God has always been as long as existence has been and that nothing exists before either therefor no arguments are required to be traded between the 2 or more opposing camps on this point.

Personal Disclosure: By trying to please everybody I'll probably just piss em all off LOL. Anyway I welcome any refutes anyone may have as if they are better memes than mine I 'll gladly be infected.

Become totally disillusioned and finally see everything for real. Think Globally Act Locally Feel Internally.DENY IGNORANCE 1st

reply to post by OmegaLogos


I liked the first 3, you fell off on the 4th with the creationist spin and big bang theory data.

Anyway, seems your understanding of the universe is similar to mine except for the 4th of course.

reply to post by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation: ok let us lock our memetic horns together and debate the validity or not of my 4th point. And the better memes shall win. Or in other more diplomatic words, care to show me where I was wrong or misleading or
causing ignorance to be promoted as I welcome critical debate upon my beliefs.

1stly I direct your attention to both the factual existence of the Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB) Radiation as Proved by the WMAP satellite (wiki article Here) so I'm not talking about something that is beyond the Universe.

2ndly I direct your attention to the Implications of such a finding for Cosmogeny and Cosmology (again 2 sciences that deal with The Universe) which also can be found under the above link. ie it proves the big bang theory and falsifies a steady state universe and Dates the age of the universe to a very high degree of accuracy plus much more.

The CMB radiation proves that the big bang is as good as the theory of evolution as both a cemented in universal scientific fact! Care to refute NASA who funded the project. This is not some string theory that can't be tested
yet if ever. We've tested it and gotten valuable and reliable answers!

Personal Disclosure: I patiently await your Proof filled refute.

BTW I notice you claim the universe is perfect, according to that logic you must agree that those who disagree with you somewhat or totally, well both they and their ideas are perfect as well.

Become totally disillusioned and finally see everything for real. Think Globally Act Locally Feel Internally.DENY IGNORANCE 1st.

Originally posted by OmegaLogos
Explanation: ok let us lock our memetic horns together and debate the validity or not of my 4th point. And the better memes shall win.

Or in other more diplomatic words, care to show me where I was wrong or misleading or
causing ignorance to be promoted as I welcome critical debate upon my beliefs.

Actually, acquired from the looks of your character and personality you don't seem to be promoting ignorance nor wanting to if you incidentally accidentally have. Your approach appears to be much more heftier and enwrapped in intellect and objective reasoning rather than faith and dogma. At least you make an attempt to use some sort of science, regardless of that fact that you don't understand it.

1stly I direct your attention to both the factual existence of the Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB) Radiation as Proved by the WMAP satellite

I've read this many times. I don't see factual conclusion. I see a twisting of the facts to fit a preconceived agenda based on nothing but religious doctrines.

2ndly I direct your attention to the Implications of such a finding for -Cosmogony- and Cosmology (again 2 sciences that deal with The Universe) which also can be found under the above link. ie it proves the big bang theory and falsifies a steady state universe and Dates the age of the universe to a very high degree of accuracy plus much more.

Nah, not really. The supposed "age" of the universe is always "changing" according to the speculations of creationist scientists. It was first 13.7 billion, then it was 20 billion, and so on. Yadda, yadda.

The CMB radiation proves that the big bang is as good as the theory of evolution as both a cemented in universal scientific fact!

No it doesn't, neither does red shifting.

Care to refute NASA who funded the project. This is not some string theory that can't be tested
yet if ever. We've tested it and gotten valuable and reliable answers!

We found something, somewhere in space that resembles a theory.

Personal Disclosure: I patiently await your Proof filled refute.

I've debunked the red shifting and CMB so many times that it's a cranial torture to continue going over this. I apologize if it's not what you wanted.

BTW I notice you claim the universe is perfect, according to that logic you must agree that those who disagree with you somewhat or totally, well both they and their ideas are perfect as well.

No. The objective universe is perfect. Everything is perfectly synchronized and put together and always has been. It's not a claim, it's the way of existence. Their ideas are not perfect, rather flawed relative to objective perfection, but exist of perfection and are allowed to perfectly exist as imperfect ideas of what perfection is. Anyone claiming existence to be imperfect is living in ignorance of its perfection, yet through its perfection. It's like being able to deny God, even though God created you and is within you and within everything, eternally.

It is true, we are all perfect beings, but I don't know any who truly harness and embody this as the idea of theirself and their existence. They'd rather argue against their own perfection and the perfection of their existence, which in turn makes them the idea of imperfection. Denying the truth of perfection makes one a liar and a deceiver, and living in ignorance and delusion.

These detachments from their perfection and their physical reality is what causes the suffering and damages of the "soul or spirit" as it is referred to in religion. Because they are not being one with their soul and spirit, that which is perfection. Instead they deny the true message of God and become lost and confused; this is where the pain and suffering sets in.

[edit on 20-6-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

reply to post by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation: Firstly Thanks for the kudo's. I'm intrigued by your statement and I quote "At least you make an attempt to use some sort of science, regardless of that fact that you don't understand it." Please enlighten (provide proof) me to my ignorance or better still just point the way and I'll try get there myself.

Next you state and I quote "I've read this many times. I don't see factual conclusion. I see a twisting of the facts to fit a preconceived agenda based on nothing but religious doctrines." Again please enlighten me or point the way.

Then you state and I quote "Nah, not really. The supposed "age" of the universe is always "changing" according to the speculations of creationist scientists. It was first 13.7 billion, then it was 20 billion, and so on. Yadda, yadda." Drop the word creationist from that sentence and it reads just as true or are you calling NASA creationist scientists?

Then you state and I again I quote "No it doesn't, neither does red shifting." Again you refute with out qualifying it with WHY this is so or providing either Proof or directions to it! I encourage you to deny my ignorance with a bit more rigour and vigour.

Next you state and again I quote "We found something, somewhere in space that resembles a theory." I'm glad you are including yourself in the we that discovered a less ignorant way of viewing things. And it wasn't just an ambiguous something, It was that energy you love talking about that is the basis for everything. well that energy field was registered at very defined
and measurable levels where?? not just somewhere but Everywhere over the entire Observiverse as best our technologically enhanced senses will currently allow. and at that moment it was sensed and assessed to be valid by peer review it went from being speculation regardless of who was speculating or why, to being current scientific fact. I look forward to how you go about debunking this as it may earn you a nobel laureate and I would sure love to see that.

Penultimately you state and I quote "I've debunked the red shifting and CMB so many times that it's a cranial torture to continue going over this. I apologize if it's not what you wanted." Cranial torture huh? apology accepted as it wasn't what I wanted at all but them's the breaks I guess. I feel that I have no option now but to throw your own words back in your face as a reprimand and I quote "The fact that I have to go back 10 pages and copy things I've already said and re-explain them, and then copy things that opposing posters have said and re-explain them, is a daft drag... but... someone's gotta do it or they'll never learn how to debate or understand anything." Care to do what you say in future? As I'm very interested in
learning how to debate and understand anything as apparently you will teach me and I'm always up for learning and re-education when it comes to water tight arguments and as your logic is flawless they should be gas tight!

And Finally you state and I quote "No. The objective universe is perfect." And I believe my quote "BTW I notice you claim the universe is perfect, according to that logic you must agree that those who disagree with you somewhat or totally, well both they and their ideas are perfect as well." didn't actually refute this and actually agrees with what you are saying so no argument here except that I suggest that the subjective universe is also perfect. for example my thoughts and feelings are sometimes highly abstracted states of subjective perception based on the objective reality. now lets say my abstract internal subjective state assumes a POV that is inconsistent with the objective reality state. then I still see it as Perfect in the sense of Perfectly wrong or Perfectly misguided but Perfect none the less! I contend that there is no place in the universe/God state that is not inherently perfect at some level. Please dish up some of that flawless logic for me to choke on.

Personal Disclosure: I feel you were worn out when you posted your post and thats not a fair contest so I will let you rest up and get your endurance back up as I'm sure looking forward to round 2.

Become totally disillusioned and finally see everything for real. Think Globally Act Locally Feel Internally.DENY IGNORANCE 1st.

Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal

Infinity by definition is larger than any quantitative value. Hence nothing can have already existed for eternity.

You're right, and nothing has existed for eternity and so has everything. By default of nothing existing for eternity, everything is eternal.

Sorry, i was unclear. I meant that no thing can have already existed for eternity. As i think i was refering to your statement that the physical is eternal.

Why? Because what is nothing? Try to imagine it. You can't. Try to touch it. You can't. It does not exist. So if you say that nothing has already existed eternally, then you are correct, and because of this there is no place for nothing to exist because it is not something. Thus its eternal existence, or rather eternal non-exstence, allows only for the eternal existence of everything. Imagine the unvierse as a bubble, what is outside of it? Nothing? How can nothing be acting as a force to keep it as a bubble? It's not. It's own forces also do not restrict it to a bubbular geometry. Since there is nothing outside of it, then we know that it expands eternally, but is not in a state of expansion, rather already is an eternal expanse.

While your preoccupation with explaining nothingness to support your belief that the Universe is eternal is interesting, i do not have to rely on imagining or touching it to support my beliefs. Thus i have a problem with accepting that the universe has always existed and is eternal. However, if you can prove that the physical is eternal then my problem disappears. While obviously my beliefs are not your concern, i would hope that your efforts to share on ATS are sincere and i would greatly appreciate your thoughts on the Second Law of Thermodynamics in regards to the entropy of energy, and thus matter. And how this logic relates to yours in relation to your beliefs.

This is a scam. You'd never know this. This is the exact same situation as attempting to make me believe that you somehow know the attributes of the invisible and unknowable god.

I have not asked you to believe anything. Calling it a Scam is an opinion. Just claiming something has always existed as it is impossible for nothing to exist is a theory based on principle and not process and i would call that a scam. More opinion.

Any God that created us to not be able to know it,

There are many people that claim they do. You do not. That is your problem to resolve, which you have.

yet to give a book to Humanity in which its attributes are explained and oxymoronically might I add, must not want to be known, probably because it doesn't want us to figure out that it's the biggest deceiver of all time...

So here you are supposing to know that which you claim does not exist. Your supposition is proof that he does not exist. But others that suppose god reasoning or existence are debased as schizophrenic?.

God wants us all to become liars and scammers, at which point being created in its image I could understand... which would lead me to believe that it must have a god of its own that also lied to it.

Here is your problem. People are liars and scammers. Where does God say "lie and scam". Where does religious doctrine inspire"lying and scamming" in the name of GOD. Can you please show me. Are lying and scamming isolated only to religious people who believe in a god or other form thereof. Your view is limited and not based on fact or logic.

To ignore these limitations corrupts a search beyond these limits leaving you prone to a premature acceptance of your own perfection in logic, and in your knowledge.

I agree. So stop ignoring these limits and your search beyond will not be corrupted. To dismiss the boundaries of the Human reception as the conduit that it acts as is to have a corrupted search beyond, where invisible and unknowable things with attributes rule your life and where you fall prey to hypocritical creeds.

I asked this question for a specific reason. We observe the Universe. Infact it is called the Observable universe. Which you claim is Eternal and therefore infinite otherwise it would be limited and therefore surrounded by nothing(a nothingness which you believe is an impossibility). But we cannot observe this, it is outside of our reception, our limitations. Can we see in every spectrum. Can we hear every frequency. No. But at some stage we had to imagine outside of these limitations and eventually found that they were in fact there.Therefore why should we limit ourselves looking outside these limitations. Can we travel at the speed of light. No. Einstein Imagined he could and what do you know......Theory of General Relativity. God is obviously outside of my limitations. But this is not proof that he does not exist or a reason not to continue to believe in the idea of a God or a search for Gods prescence.

I don't believe it is perfect. It is perfect. If existence was imperfect it would spontaneously cease to exist, but every second passes with the symbiotic perfection of forces, laws and principals coherently, interconectedly and synchronistically flowing in a continuum of flawlessness.

Some of the laws you talk about contradict your belief that energy and matter are eternal and have always existed.

No, it is as it is. This is the perfection, everything about it. Our energy is physically eternal. Everything that makes you up has always existed. You are, in essence of energy, an eternal being. Your body and your mind a vessel for the one eternal consciousness. The death of your individual body real, but the death of your energy an illusion.

There is no doubt that we are all made of the same energy. You believe it is eternal and has always existed. Eternal Consciousness. This is how god is described in religious dogma. You say you have no belief, yet offer a consciousness now that is eternal. This is metaphysical. Or Scientism. Astrology and religious dogma. Take your pick. This a clever way you can make your peace with that which you do not know as you accept it is always there and within you. Which then lends you the arrogance to dismiss all other beliefs as stupid and/or delusional mental illness, which you constantly do. Your hypocracy is manifest.