Creationists Will Destroy ATS

Just so that we are absolutely clear - There is NO ARGUMENT. Creationism was thrown out of the courts and proven to be garbage. Anything beyond this is no better than the "tooth fairy". If you think otherwise then provide proof.

The simple solution to this is for Christians and there "make believe" to provide evidence we can debunk - like the rest of us. Links to evidence which supports their theories - evidence - real evidence - not simply this person said or that person said - evidence.

There is none, never has been any, never will be.

reply to post by AshleyD

Matrix can correct me if I am wrong but she said right above her comment to you that she believes there is a fundie tag team going on and was trying to share with you what she does in an effort to bring you some peace: Use the ignore feature.

Yes! I haven't seen it in many threads, but certainly some. And as Clearskies said, it probably exists on the atheist side also.

The irony is; I am only ignoring two. One is Christian and one is atheist!

I am impressed with someone's conviction, including yours. I respect the right for all on ATS to be able to defend their beliefs and the right to do so.

I choose to ignore those who cannot be civil or maintain some dignity and respect for others. We can do this without name calling and defamation of character. All of us can be provoked, and often the subject matter is provocative enough, but it rarely accomplishes anything to attack another.

Thanks for your support!

reply to post by Clearskies


I think with some people, opposition to Evolution is proselytizing.
Because if Evolution, (Darwinism) isn't true; to them that means
Creationism is true and Creationism to them is religion.

reply to post by skyshow


Why, hello again Skyshow. Long time no see.

I see you are back to your own rhetoric as well of accusing me of being preachy. It's funny because in the past on multiple threads you repeatedly said all I ever do is quote Scripture. In all of those threads I asked you to point out one of my many comments where I quoted just one passage from the Bible- not once did I ever get an answer from you.

Again, say something loud enough and long enough and people will believe it. What makes it even more amusing is that a few of the Christians here have jokingly accused me of being 'ashamed of the Gospel' due to my frequent refusal to quote Scripture even when other members have repeatedly asked me to do so in a debate. This is because I spot a futile attempt when I see one and don't feel the need to proselytize.

However, I am grateful that you then point out what I typically do- I 'refute.' Yes, that is precisely what I do. Instead of preaching or starting the tangents, I mostly stick to defending Christianity against the attacks on the board. Super simple: Quit attacking Christianity and you probably wouldn't hear from me much.

Anyways, this entire thread reminds me of Nero accusing the Christians of burning Rome. Let's hope Astyanax and company doesn't have any say in our fate. We'd all be lined up on stakes and set on fire to be used as street lights in the streets of ATS.

Edit to add a response to this comment of yours:

This site is cool because it allows one to explore alternatives to the status quo.

Precisely. However, the status quo in this case is evolution, Skyshow. Therefore creationism is the alternative to the status quo. I'm sorry but your own words expose your bias. You are not interested in discussing alternative views when the underdog is a religious view. Your many anti-religious threads and posts throughout ATS speak volumes concerning where you stand on the issue.

[edit on 5/31/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by jamie83

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by jamie83
What would destroy ATS faster than anything is if the OP's attitude spread and became the prevalent thinking here. Nobody wants to hang out in a forum populated by a gang of like minded bigots who single out and attempt to silence the minority opinion.

Like minded biggots? Yes I flagged and starred it.. not agreeing with you does not make me a biggot though.

You forgot to call us 'nazis' btw.

I didn't call you ANYTHING.

"A gang of like minded biggots" was what you called us. Also in your own words:

How in the world can a blatantly bigoted post like this be starred by so many members is beyond me. It's discouraging to think that there are so many members here aligned with the OPs attitude of intolerance.

I was referring to an attitude of intolerance, evidenced by any majority demonizing a minority, dissenting opinion, and then using the demonization of the minority as an excuse to silence the minority. That's the definition of bigotry.

And I've copped it from the side you're defending.. to me thats endorsing biggotry.

If you think the shoe fits, then you really need to examine your own values and beliefs in terms of how you respect other people who don't share your values and beliefs.

You called everyone who starred the OP biggots.. getting on your moral high ground and claiming you didn't when it's there for everyone to read is beyond hypocritical.

And in terms of creationism vs. atheism,

I thought it was creationism vs. ToE..?
ToE does not equal atheism. There are plenty of believers that accept ToE. The FACT is 'creationism' cannot compete against ToE simply because it is not a science.

it is arrogant for either side to claim they have absolute knowledge that their belief system is correct, and that the other's is incorrect.

Well not really.. ToE is based on factual evidence and creationism is based on faith. It is arrogent to expect non believers to accept ceationism without question.

Therefore, I would suggest that both sides would be well server by being far more tolerant than what the OP is suggesting.

I would suggest you follow your own advice.

[edit on 31-5-2008 by riley]

Very well written OP. Would be neat for a week if ATS was that dramatic and cool to have different factions banding together to overthrow the rest but I haven't noticed it until it was brought up like this.
Wasn't ATS originally not a forum and just like an alternative news site? Maybe a moderator can answer this question.
Also I haven't noticed too many creationists expanding their beliefs in other topics aside from this one. However I have gotten into an argument with a fellow about spreading the good word. I was against it and he was criticizing me for being a bad Christian or whatever.

reply to post by jamie83


Jamie if I could give you an applause for that, I would. Hopefully a simple star will do. It is funny, isn't it? You really nailed it with your comment.

reply to post by Clearskies


Thank you very much for coming to my defense, CS, against more silly accusations.

reply to post by jamie83


Jaimie nails it again. Very true. I don't think they realize just how bigoted they are coming across. I guess that is what blind hate does to people. Don't think you will make any headway, though. You will never get those who thrive on the victim mentality to ever admit they are sometimes downright cruel to other members here and often bring the heat they receive on themselves.

reply to post by MatrixProphet


You're more than welcome. We don't agree but that is what you can do when you are not biased. And that is, disagree with someone but still come to their defense when you see them getting falsely accused.

reply to post by Howie47


Pretty much. Someone of the more even minded will take criticism of evolution for what it is- questioning a science. However, the more sensitive types will take it as an offense of their very religion. And they don't like you criticizing their religion.

reply to post by riley


Well, that is because the OP is very bigoted. Those who are agreeing with it are coming off as bigots too. Just as a psychological experiment I would love to make a thread asking for mod intervention to keep the atheists from posting in the CIR or Faith forum. What do they really need to be there for anyways, right? Something tells me you guys would cry persecution, though, and you would be correct because I have no right to tell you where you can or cannot post.

[edit on 5/31/2008 by AshleyD]

You should really work on your reading comprehension.

I was very careful NOT to call anybody anything. I specifically said that the attitudes displayed were bigoted, not the people.

I also said that generally speaking, any group of like-minded bigots who attempt to silence a minority is what will destroy ATS.

And again, if you take offense because what I described fits you, then so be it. I have never called you or anybody else here a bigot.

That said, the attitude of intolerance expressed by the OP and those who agree in principle is, by definition, a very bigoted attitude. If this attitude was expressed towards blacks instead of creationists, it would be call racist. If it was expressed towards gays instead of creationists, it would be called homophobic.

The ATTITUDE of intolerance, not the individuals. Get it?

I thought it was creationism vs. ToE..?
ToE is based on factual evidence and creationism is based on faith. It is arrogent to expect non believers to accept ceationism without question.

This isn't a debate about creationism vs. anything. Save your debate about science vs. creationism for another thread. If you don't want to accept creationists beliefs then don't. Nobody is forcing you to accept anything.

This debate is about one group demonizing another group, making claims that the minority is going to destroy the ATS community, and advocating for the elimination of the minority voice on ATS.

Here's a common pattern that's been seen throughout history:

1. The majority claims the minority will destroy the greater good.
2. The majority gets people to agree that the greater good must be preserved.
3. The only conclusion is the minority must be eradicated to save the greater good.

This pattern is a vile, disgusting, and bigoted pattern that's been used throughout history to oppress people. Even if the minority is not eradicated, they are put into a position of fear which leads to silence and compliance. In other words, it's just a grand form of bullying.

It's up to each individual to decide for themselves if that's the point of the OP or not.

Just know, ATS is not the playground where bullies are used to getting their way with physical force or mob rule. ATS is an arena in which fairness and following the TOS is what's valued.

This is why ATS is so popular to begin with. Unlike most boards, ATS is staffed by what are undeniably the best, most fair, and most diligent Mods on the internet. The entire premise of the OP goes against everything ATS stands for, and has worked so hard over the years to implement.

[edit on 31-5-2008 by jamie83]

I read the testimony of an american jew (ashkenazi jew) who pilgrimaged to Israel when it became a nation again, after World War II. He said when he got there, he fell in love with a female sephardic jew, which caused all manner of problems. He said there was so much bigotry there, that it was insanely hard to live there. Ashkenazi jews will have nothing to do with Sephardic jews, who they view as unworthy. The problem was the influx of jews from Russia that were primarily atheistic, communist and socialistic and the jews from Germany, that were primarily fascist atheists. The top eschelons of the government are composed of atheists who call themselves ashkenazi jews and who not only don't like Sephardic jews but don't like muslims or christians, and the society is set up to reflect this. I was in shock when i read it. He claimed that it wasn't even remotely democratic, and in fact, the atheism and communism there had essentially destroyed the culture and provided for some of the most aggregious crimes against humanity he had ever seen.

Most of the people in jail are sephardic jews, muslims and christians.


[edit on 31-5-2008 by undo]

This is how I see this thread and it's attitude.

Now this thread also fits quite well with the USSRs Lenin.

Notice the uncanny similarities....

It would be the biggest and most grievous mistake a Marxist could make to think that the millions of the people (especially the peasants and artisans), who have been condemned by all modern society to darkness, ignorance and superstitions - can extricate themselves from this darkness only along the straight line of a purely Marxist education. These masses should be supplied with the most varied atheist propaganda material, they should be made familiar with facts from the most diverse spheres of life, they should be approached in every possible way, so as to interest them, rouse them from their religious torpor, stir them from the most varied angles and by the most varied methods, and so forth.

Lenin



[edit on 5/31/2008 by Bigwhammy]

[edit on 5/31/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by audas

Just so that we are absolutely clear - There is NO ARGUMENT.

The only thing that's clear is you must be are afraid of the argument. Because you want to silence the opposition. I believe in God - the Big Bang - limited micro evolution - because of reason and evidence. The scientific evidence supports theism by a wide margin. I Love Science. I want all theories and all view points heard. Unlike those who fear creationists.

Stop the hate - I don't think atheists are ruining ATS - they are fun and easy to debunk. I guess you guys are tired of always losing huh?

[edit on 5/31/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Originally posted by Lightmare

Originally posted by Tenebrous
Well simply stated, look how bad this thread has broken down. I agree with the OP, religion is dragging ATS down. I was a lurker for a while before i signed up. It seems like theres always one cyclic debate or another going on ABOUT THE SAME THING. This really has to end, because both sides have trouble staying out, and as much as i hate it i often end up reading the threads as well. I wont take a side, but this "war" is disenchanting.

And both sides will continue to debate the same thing until the second coming. Deal with it.

If you don't like the religious debates, then don't read them. Pretty simple huh?

The fact still remains that ATS has taken a serious nose dive. I lurked for years before I signed up and I remember the quality that used to permiate ATS. Some of the most brilliant members that I remember have abandoned this site within the past year, and I can't really name many current posters that have wowed me. I used to come here to learn, but now, it feels like we're buried it nonsense that I couldn't be bothered with. First and foremost, maybe someone could tell me how to ignore a topic, and if it's not an option, perhaps it should be implemented ASAP.

MODS, LITTLE HELP HERE?

I don't like logging on and being confronted with religious debate threads on the front page, they take up valuable space and I might be missing something important because of them. It seems reasonable to assume that the non-stop babyish behavior that came from such threads slowly transformed the site into one based on bickering, and this directly drove off the more intellegent posters that simply couldn't be bothered. And with the more intellegent posters gone so go the ones who've come to learn from them.

Originally posted by audas
Just so that we are absolutely clear - There is NO ARGUMENT. Creationism was thrown out of the courts and proven to be garbage. Anything beyond this is no better than the "tooth fairy". If you think otherwise then provide proof.

The simple solution to this is for Christians and there "make believe" to provide evidence we can debunk - like the rest of us. Links to evidence which supports their theories - evidence - real evidence - not simply this person said or that person said - evidence.

There is none, never has been any, never will be.

This is a very good point. Religion is a shoddy conspiracy/fringe topic because it isn't debatable. Conspiracies within' the structure of organized religion is good, as well as conspiracies concerning religion seeping into government, but to argue about which religion is right or the existance of god is an effort in extreme futility. I actually think religion should just be on BTS because it's not a supply evidence, debunk, rinse, repeat. Rather, it's more of an I'm right, you're wrong, you're an assface, kiss my taint, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, who cares type of subject.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go to Manhattan to stomp on a homeless man's cake...

Linger longer

Originally posted by Bigwhammy

Now this thread also fits quite well with the USSRs Lenin.

Notice the uncanny similarities....

It would be the biggest and most grievous mistake a Marxist could make to think that the millions of the people (especially the peasants and artisans), who have been condemned by all modern society to darkness, ignorance and superstitions - can extricate themselves from this darkness only along the straight line of a purely Marxist education. These masses should be supplied with the most varied atheist propaganda material, they should be made familiar with facts from the most diverse spheres of life, they should be approached in every possible way, so as to interest them, rouse them from their religious torpor, stir them from the most varied angles and by the most varied methods, and so forth.

Lenin

Having known many Creationists, primarily of the variety who believe in the 6,000-year Earth, I can say with some authority that there is a common thread of anti-Intellectualism among them.

They seek educational alternatives for their children that ignore and demonize Science, Social Studies (especially any that seek to instill an understanding of other religions and their belief systems), and the Arts.

They spend (waste?) vast amounts of their time on the indoctrination of their children and enforcement of belief in their particular system to the exclusion of all else.

In light of my personal experiences with such folk, and Marxism aside, I have to state with all conviction that in a purely intellectual sense Lenin had a point.

The human mind requires new information and experiences. Organized religion, especially that which seeks to dismiss and suppress Intellectualism as some kind of "devil worship", effectively numbs the mind and robs it of the ability and impetus to seek that new experience. If God created all, and God provides all you need, why bother to seek out anything but a deeper relationship with God? In my opinion this is a waste of human capacity.

And yes, Creationism and Intelligent Design are religion. Both presuppose the objective existence of a Supreme Being who created this Universe and is responsible for its well-being.

Originally posted by Sunsetspawn
MODS, LITTLE HELP HERE?

I'm not a mod but what you are asking for is extremely simple.

1). Go to 'MemCenter' at the top menu.

2). Click on 'ATS Customizations.'

3). Select 'myATS' from the menu.

4). Go to the forums you would like to be subscribed to and click 'subscribe.'

From now on, any time you click 'recent posts,' only the posts in the forums you subscribe to will be seen by you in the list of recent topics.

Super easy and you don't have to be burdened with seeing religious threads on the home page however those who enjoy such topics will still be able to participate in said threads.

Originally posted by AshleyD

Originally posted by Sunsetspawn
MODS, LITTLE HELP HERE?

Super easy and you don't have to be burdened with seeing religious threads on the home page however those who enjoy such topics will still be able to participate in said threads.

That would work IF the religious topics were kept to the forums set aside for religious subjects. However, there isn't a forum on this board, nor few threads, that isn't hijacked.

Originally posted by The Nighthawk
And yes, Creationism and Intelligent Design are religion. Both presuppose the objective existence of a Supreme Being who created this Universe and is responsible for its well-being.

Doesn't evolutionary theory that unequivocally states that there is NO Supreme Being who designed evolutionary process also constitute a religion?

I.e., wouldn't that require faith/belief that there no Supreme Being? It seems from a scientific standpoint, at best one must be agnostic. What I've seen is a cross-over in which people wear the cloak of science to conclude there is no God. Science can't conclude there is no God anymore than it can conclude there are no ghosts, no aliens, or anything else that is beyond the means of being proven one way or another.

Originally posted by audas
Just so that we are absolutely clear - There is NO ARGUMENT. Creationism was thrown out of the courts and proven to be garbage. Anything beyond this is no better than the "tooth fairy". If you think otherwise then provide proof.

Are you talking about the scopes trial?
Because that was supposedly a very messed-up trial.
I haven't studied much of it.

This is silly,

You think that there are NO scientists that have believed in God?

You think all scientists are athiest?

Famous Scientists Who Believed in God
www.godandscience.org...

nobelist.tripod.com...


50 NOBEL LAUREATES
AND OTHER GREAT SCIENTISTS WHO BELIEVE IN GOD

Pierre Duhem: historian of the Christian origin of science - French physicist Pierre Duhem
findarticles.com...

The work of Duhem is of great relevance today, for it shows clearly the

Christian roots of modern science,

thus decisively refuting the alleged incompatibility of science and Christianity still propagated by the secularist establishment. Science is an integral part of Christian culture, a lesson still to be learned even within the Christian Church. From this follows the importance of detailed and accurate scientific studies of many aspects of modern life before any moral judgements are made.

history demonstrates that science has flourished the most in societies that believed in a Creator.The following list contains many creationist scientists, but it is in no way exhaustive. You may notice the presence of many famous ones who were founders:

bassethound.wordpress.com...

Partial list of Creationist scientists
(past and present)

www.christiananswers.net...

Collins: Why this scientist believes in God
Editor's note: Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D., is the director of the Human Genome Project. His most recent book is "The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief."
www.cnn.com...

as the director of the Human Genome Project, I have led a consortium of scientists to read out the 3.1 billion letters of the human genome, our own DNA instruction book. As a believer, I see DNA, the information molecule of all living things, as God's language, and the elegance and complexity of our own bodies and the rest of nature as a reflection of God's plan. I did not always embrace these perspectives. As a graduate student in physical chemistry in the 1970s, I was an atheist, finding no reason to postulate the existence of any truths outside of mathematics, physics and chemistry. But then I went to medical school, and encountered life and death issues at the bedsides of my patients. Challenged by one of those patients, who asked "What do you believe, doctor?", I began searching for answers.

British writer G.K. Chesterton famously remarked, "Atheism is the most daring of all dogmas, for it is the assertion of a universal negative."

You guys are throwing the baby out with the bath water, you don't think there is a place in society where spirituality and science can mess with one another,

They are all levels of the human experience.

I would say the people who want to take the possibility of a God out of the equation, are the close minded ones.

reply to post by The Nighthawk

In light of my personal experiences with such folk, and Marxism aside, I have to state with all conviction that in a purely intellectual sense Lenin had a point.

Yes good points in a purely intellectual sense let's throw creationists in the Gulags.

The human mind requires new information and experiences. Organized religion, especially that which seeks to dismiss and suppress Intellectualism as some kind of "devil worship", effectively numbs the mind and robs it of the ability and impetus to seek that new experience. If God created all, and God provides all you need, why bother to seek out anything but a deeper relationship with God? In my opinion this is a waste of human capacity.

"Human capacity" sorta like Horse Power Niiiiiiiiice

And yes, Creationism and Intelligent Design are religion. Both presuppose the objective existence of a Supreme Being who created this Universe and is responsible for its well-being.

And you presuppose the non existence. To your peril. Intelligence and consciousness are not material. You can't explain your on ability to reason. If your brain is an accidental occurence of chemicals then why do you assume it can determine what is truth? BIG ASSUMPTION. without a creator.

And don't forget atheism is a religion as well.

Court rules atheism a religion

Decides 1st Amendment protects prison inmate's right to start study group

Atheism is [the inmate's] religion, and the group that he wanted to start was religious in nature even though it expressly rejects a belief in a supreme being," the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals said.

The court decided the inmate's First Amendment rights were violated because the prison refused to allow him to create a study group for atheists.

Brian Fahling, senior trial attorney for the American Family Association Center for Law & Policy, called the court's ruling "a sort of Alice in Wonderland jurisprudence."

"Up is down, and atheism, the antithesis of religion, is religion," said Fahling.

The Supreme Court has said a religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being. In the 1961 case of Torcaso v. Watkins, the court described "secular humanism" as a religion.

Fahling said today's ruling was "further evidence of the incoherence of Establishment Clause jurisprudence."

[edit on 5/31/2008 by Bigwhammy]