why the hell are skeptics allowed to post here

Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
The biggest debunkers may be people from your own tent. I do not know if you have noticed, but UFO skeptics are currently winning by a huge margin in the court of public opinion. There are two ways UFO believers could turn things around in their favor. One, is that some highly visible UFO event occurs like a fleet of spaceships landing on the 50 yard line during the Superbowl. This is however unlikely.

The other way for the UFO believers to win in the court of public opinion is to put forth evidence that is highly credible. This means that UFO believers need to meticulously scrutinize to make sure it is genuine and that it skeptics cannot easily provide an alternative solution to the evidence..

This also means that UFO believers have to appear as if they are rational, credible, upstanding, and normal citizens. I am not saying that all UFO believers are irrational,unintelligent, or frauds but it appears to the average person that UFO believers are. It would behoove the sincere, reasonable, and intelligent UFO believers to quickly kick out from their tent people that are irrational, unintelligent, or frauds. Perhaps this is what the sincere and intelligent UFO believers are doing.

The problem here is that anytime mainstream media do a story or documentary on UFOs, they seek to avoid ridicule by putting 'both sides of the story'. (believe me, the skeptics are very vocal in terms of angry letters, emails and faxes to media organisations that dare to air/print anything they disagree with)

To make matters worse, lazy media researchers often dig up some local wacko (one that presents, talks and sounds like every serious UFO researchers nightmare) and put him/her/it opposite some skeptic professor (backgrounded against shelves of books) - and hence the court of public opinion leans in favour of the skeptics.

The skeptics organisations are pretty dedicated in terms of monitoring and correcting media - and will go to rival networks with a shame story if necessary. I've seen it at work. If the UFO community ever got coherently united and organised this all might change.

But getting the UFO community together and united is impossible - due to the vast amount of contradictory information in the field.

As for the highly visible UFO event we all want to see - if it gets full TV/media coverage like 911 - then I'm betting that it will be stage managed by humans.

Duncan

reply to post by nexusmagazine


I agree, at the moment it seems a lose/lose situation.
We have to remember that websites feed on hits and the more outrageous a video is presented to be the more hits it gets. Doesn't have to be the real deal, just look at the Haitian footage/amazing CGI. That got huge attention... unfortunately.

I believe that no matter how much we want to believe in the existance of ufos and in those being operated by aliens, we must never lower the floodgates in our mind completely. Feel free to risk losing yourself, but recover before losing yourself completely and then analyze what you earned from that experience.

oh, not aimed at you Nexus just adding to what you wrote...

If you do make a living of looking for crop circles, ufos, aliens etc. Then get some gear that can actually represent what you're doing.
Spend money on a good cam or videocam... not some consumer crap that costs $200, and then MAKE IT your life. Go to the places that have high rates of sightings, spend time there, move on. But don't ever fall to the tragedy of needing to show something. Pratice patience and dicipline, especially in intrepretations of what you see.
Buddhists can spend their entire life searching for nirvana and not finding it. But atleast they are willing to fight for it.

There will be no glory to be the first to bring tangible evidence to the table, no fame and fortune. Especially not if you write a book about it that your peers have to pay to get.
The glory you'll find in your sacrifice towards proving to us that some of us were wrong, some of us were right and some found a stand to take.

[edit on 23/5/08 by flice]

reply to post by spacedementia


hmm.. smells like a commie to me

If we didn't have fair skeptics, the Australian UFO wave hoax and the Drone hoax would be classed as solid evidence by a fair share of the members of these boards.

UFOlogy is NOTHING without skeptics to keep the kooks in line and to weed the 5% unexplainable from the 95% explainable.

Extremists are bad in anything, and that goes for both sides in this debate as well. Extreme debunkers and hardcore believers are the ones you should be targeting, not the average skeptic or believer.

My $0.02

You've got to treat members of ATS just as you would treat guests at a dinner party in your home.

For example, let's say you invite ten people to your home for dinner and drinks. As an individual, you're sure to engage in conversations with these people and as a group, they're sure to engage in conversations with each other - some of it serious, some of it not so.

These ten people [those who comment] and you has host [original poster of the thread] certainly are not going to agree on every aspect of your dinner conversation [threads on ATS], whether it be UFO's, 9/11 Conspiracies, Obama for President, or somethng else. If everyone agreed, it would be a boring dinner party and everyone would leave early because there would be nothing to talk about.

On the other hand, at almost any dinner party [whether we are the host or a guest], there seems to always be one or two guests who you may not particularly like, or who really rub you the wrong way and generally as a rule, we ignore those types of people because there's just something about them we don't like. Here at ATS, we have that option as well - we can ignore members who really bother us or say things we may find upsetting or which bother us in some way.

While I have been a lurker for a long time and rarely post comments, I learn a lot from ATS members who really know their stuff and who have a lot of experience and/or education to contribute.

That said, please don't shut all your guests out at the expense of a few who may irriate you or not agree with your views. Dinner parties should be fun and filled with a lot of chatter, so enjoy - you may learn something new from some very informative members!

[edit on 23-5-2008 by Artista]

Whatever subject or topic you "let out the bag" here, there is always someone to make fun of it. If you don't like that, then this you own limition.

You have the right to believe in whatever you want, so is everyone else.

Beside that, don't forget the ridicule might be used by some people as protection against the extraordinairy (which could be experienced as threathening).

An other thing is that a lot of ATS members are still waiting for this 1000% prove beyond denial that UFO's exists an that the have connection with aliens. This message would then be all over the media in the whole world.
Any story with facts open to other interpretation/explanation are nothing in their eyes.

Anyway don't be discouraged, some day after full disclosure, your life will be much easier on ATS, but then of course UFO's and Aliens are not "above top secret" anymore

Welcome top ATS. Here is your end of the 'party line'; begin towing on our command...

Disinfo jobs start at $15 an hour....

Before offering comment I would like to point to the header available at the top of every page in this forum:

This forum is dedicated to the discussion of historic and contemporary events related to extraterrestrial encounters, UFO sightings, and speculation about related subjects. Discussion topics and follow-up responses in this forum will likely tend to lean in favor of the existence of extraterrestrials and the related conspiracies, scandals, and cover-ups. Members who would seek to refute such theories should be mindful of AboveTopSecret.com's tradition of supporting the examination of the "extraterrestrial phenomenon" on the related conspiracy theories, cover-ups, and scandals.

and for anyone unsure also offer the following link: No more scoffing and ridicule...

There are some wonderful replies here and I have taken great pleasure in reading what I believe are insightful comments not only about the validity but also the essential requirement of healthy scepticism.

Any member who has spent time here at ATS is well aware there are those who arrive, note the somewhat controversial nature of certain subjects discussed here and, believing they will be met with unquestioning acceptance, form the opinion they can (in derision and for their own amusement) post whatever wild story that springs to mind. It is an understandable mistake for no doubt there are such sites which welcome any story with open arms through ill considered desperation and desire.

ATS though is not such a site.

Many here rightly see the role of sceptic as very important in this field. and refuse to simply accept any story merely because, if true, it offers support for a palatable viewpoint and this is surely a very healthy attitude to take.

(To those already aware I apologise for offering this quote again but so often it seems relevant.) Bertrand Russell:

If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence.

This is a very dangerous trap that I believe we are all vulnerable to. In such a controversial field for those with a genuine interest surely it must be desirable to hope for honest investigation on this subject and that anyone with a genuine interest be objective in his consideration and discerning in his judgement of any report rather than fall foul of wishful thinking and so set his beliefs on foundations so poor as to be easily refutable to even the most scant of honest investigation.

There are whose to whom the idea of intelligent extra-terrestrial life is extraordinary to the point of miraculous; that receive views on the subject of Aliens & UFOs with as much a wry smile as comment on religion and with this in mind a quote from David Hume (1711 – 1776) which I also see as relevant here:

The passion of surprise and wonder, arising from miracles, being an agreeable emotion, gives a sensible tendency towards the belief of those events, from which it is derived. And this goes so far, that even those who cannot enjoy this pleasure immediately, nor can believe those miraculous events, of which they are informed, yet love to partake of the satisfaction at second-hand or by rebound, and place a pride and delight in exciting the admiration of others.

With what greediness are the miraculous accounts of travellers received, their descriptions of sea and land monsters, their relations of wonderful adventures, strange men, and uncouth manners? But if the spirit of religion join itself to the love of wonder, there is an end of common sense; and human testimony, in these circumstances, loses all pretensions to authority.

Jak

[edit on 23/5/08 by JAK]

reply to post by JAK


Bertrand Russel hit it on the head with that comment. Well quoted...

The UFO community needs the skeptics badly. If the community had more of them associated with it, rather than against, maybe just maybe whatever truth is out there would come to the forefront, and not get buried under tons of Serpo's, Austrailian waves, and drones. There is truth to be had in the UFO area. It may not be what you want to hear, mind you, but that's got nothing to do with the search for the truth of the matter.

I have what I consider to be a healthy level of skeptism, I don't jump on board with every little thing. I do believe something is going on, what? Haven't a clue, that's why I do much more reading than commenting. Just searching for the truth in my own little way.

Relax.Skeptics are here to keep a certain balance.If we all agreed on everything then we wouldnt have much to talk about.Just keep in mind that the skeptics that say aliens do not exist cannot ever prove they dont.

Ignorance is someone saying "there is no other life out there" and here's why.
Just because some geek at NASA sends a few probes out to Mars and looks through a fancy telescope doesnt make him an expert on the universe.Pretty convenient that some random human can definately say there is no life on other planets but doesnt know even how many planets are out there.

The universe is vast and possibly endless.There is only one way to know for sure if they exist or not and that's to fly out there and visit every planet in the entire universe.Then if nothing is found i'll agree with the skeptics.That will never happen.


Just smile at the skeptics and feel good that you are intelligent enough to have an open mind and realize that no human (not even NASA scientists) can ever disprove the existence of life elsewhere because it just isn't possible.

I think what you'll find happening quite often on this board is that members who have been around for a while, who have seen the Titor's and Serpo's come and go a dozen times a year, you've heard about most of the major UFO/alien cases, you've read about a thousand theories of 911 and reptilians and the NWO, that by the end of it all you can't help but become skeptical.

I think what's important to remember is that when a 'skeptic' comes along to douse your thread with cold water, it is not an attack on UFO-logy or disclosure or whatever, but is an attack on the misinformation and fallacious reasoning which so thoroughly pervades the discussion of these alternative topics.

Stay strong

Originally posted by fooffstarr
If we didn't have fair skeptics, the Australian UFO wave hoax and the Drone hoax would be classed as solid evidence by a fair share of the members of these boards.

UFOlogy is NOTHING without skeptics to keep the kooks in line and to weed the 5% unexplainable from the 95% explainable.

Extremists are bad in anything, and that goes for both sides in this debate as well. Extreme debunkers and hardcore believers are the ones you should be targeting, not the average skeptic or believer.

My $0.02

Actually, the UFO community have outed far more hoaxes than skeptics have, and with more accuracy and facts.

Dunno about most of the so-called skeptics that lurk on this list, but those who are paid members and receive the various publications must be pretty disappointed with the quality of both journalism and research.

I mean, I know I have nothing to brag about here at Nexus, but fair dinkum, the amount of rhetoric and research by proclamation (ie its impossible so we don't even need to investigate futher lines of thought) put out in the magazines funded by skeptic groups is appalling. (Yes, I get and receive the skeptics newsletters, magazines etc - and they are so full of back-slapping and emotion that you would never assume there are neutral, fact-driven fact crunchers in their ranks at all.)

In my 25 years of being skeptical of the mainstream media-driven nonsensical view of world events, history and science - I have yet to meet a skeptic that has contributed anything meaningful to any of the issues I have been involved with.

If standing up in other people's conferences and yelling and screaming at presenters is how skeptics want to behave - then maybe that should be put on TV instead of the wild-eyed crystal worshippers who make the footage instead?. (Yes, folks, that is how Australian skeptics have behaved in days gone by, and I have witnessed it personally. In fact the time I saw it happen, it was the national president at work. LOL!!)

Duncan

the forum, in my opinion, is actually like a Soap-Box.... where anyone & everyone can state their case to anyone who cares to stop a moment and hear the message.


As opposed to a pulpit, where one sermonizes to the like minded followers
and "preaches to the choir", as it were.


So be it


~~~~~~~~ ADD:

Oh, nexusmagazine....

vociferous Debunkers should not be mixed in with Skeptics,
there is a wide gulf between the two


[edit on 23-5-2008 by St Udio]

Originally posted by elibubbles
i joined this website the other day
my second post was a long topic about ufos aliens which took me an hour to write
i had no replies except one person making a mockery out of it
whenever there is a thread on ufos theres always people making fun of it
sorry but if you dont like matters of which people are based of their opinions, keep it to yourself
there is way more proof that aliens exist than there is to any other theory whether it is 9 11 or the jfk assasination
so for gods sake
if u dont believe aliens exist thats fine, just DONT COME ON A UFO TOPIC AND MAKE A MOCKERY OUT OF IT!

I can understand your frustration mate.
However, you shall not get so upset about people reacting in a sceptical way of your posts.
If you want to make preaching posts about UFO's then you ALWAYS have to accept that people will be sceptical and even mock your posts.

But, you should never tell them to go away or keep it to yourself.
Like someone said in here, it is a matter of balance. The sceptics are just as essential as the believers.

Those who want to believe do so, and those who want to be a sceptic will be one. Not much one can do.

Another thing is that you shall never EVER try to convince someone that UFO's are real or anything, however, you should ENCOURAGE them to get out on the net and make there own research so they can make up their own point of view about this. This is the key. Not to tell everyone that this is how it is or how it works.

Don't TELL them....Guide them....

Originally posted by elibubbles
i joined this website the other day
my second post was a long topic about ufos aliens which took me an hour to write
i had no replies except one person making a mockery out of it
whenever there is a thread on ufos theres always people making fun of it
sorry but if you dont like matters of which people are based of their opinions, keep it to yourself
there is way more proof that aliens exist than there is to any other theory whether it is 9 11 or the jfk assasination
so for gods sake
if u dont believe aliens exist thats fine, just DONT COME ON A UFO TOPIC AND MAKE A MOCKERY OUT OF IT!

So using your logic we all should bow to our new messiah!

VVVVVVVVVVVVVVV




Wooo I want myself an alien chick!


[edit on 23-5-2008 by Macrotus]

Originally posted by elibubbles
i joined this website the other day
my second post was a long topic about ufos aliens which took me an hour to write
i had no replies except one person making a mockery out of it
whenever there is a thread on ufos theres always people making fun of it
sorry but if you dont like matters of which people are based of their opinions, keep it to yourself
there is way more proof that aliens exist than there is to any other theory whether it is 9 11 or the jfk assasination
so for gods sake
if u dont believe aliens exist thats fine, just DONT COME ON A UFO TOPIC AND MAKE A MOCKERY OUT OF IT!

Typically, skeptics are people who request evidence in order to believe. To believe in something without evidence is FAITH which is something that separates science from religion.

Your opinion on UFO's is just that-your OPINION.
The person posting their opposite OPINION is just as valid as yours unless you have physical evidence to present which would override an opinion.

If you came to ATS to look for nothing but followers of your belief, you came to the wrong place. There are many free thinking people here that have scientific minds and those minds require evidence.

I am a skeptic so will will always ask someone for evidence to back up what they say.

Do I personally believe aliens exist somewhere? YES. Based on the number of stars in our galaxy, the number of hypothesized planets per star, the number of galaxies in the universe, the statistical odds that somewhere there is life, is VERY high. Now have those aliens come here? Although I would like to think so, I don't know as I have not seen any solid evidence to believe they have.

My suggestion is that you develop a little thicker skin if you continue to post here on ATS as you will run into some people who will try to get under said skin

Originally posted by elibubbles
sorry but i feel so strongly about it
every thread i read about ufos theres skeptics or even people going `oh well im not convinced`
well why not KEEP IT TO YOURSELF!
youve signed up to a taboo website obviously because theres alternative topics that interest you so why contradict yourself by doubting ufos
god i hate some people

I agree with you. I have fought long and hard on this issue. This is a thread I started long ago.--->

www.belowtopsecret.com...

We have tried to mobilize to no avail. People just don't care about alien greys taking our innocent nerds or taking our jobs. They are a real threat to our way of life but do you see any outrage? NO. That is just sad.

I have preached for along time now that we need to prepare a common defense against Alien Greys. I just want to ask some of these people that don't believe in our cause---->If Alien Greys were killed off today, would you miss them?

Take a stand against the enemies of Earth. This is our final hour if we don't do something to stop the threat against humanity.

Peace

[edit on 23-5-2008 by ConstantlyWondering]

For someone who complained he never got any replies you got a lot this time.

Still, we are really here and hiding in New York and Dunedin, Florida (well we didn't all like the city).

Would you like a visit?

Originally posted by ConstantlyWondering

Originally posted by elibubbles
sorry but i feel so strongly about it
every thread i read about ufos theres skeptics or even people going `oh well im not convinced`
well why not KEEP IT TO YOURSELF!
youve signed up to a taboo website obviously because theres alternative topics that interest you so why contradict yourself by doubting ufos
god i hate some people

I agree with you. I have fought long and hard on this issue. We have tried to mobilize to no avail. People just don't care about alien greys taking our innocent nerds or taking our jobs. They are a real threat to our way of life but do you see any outrage? NO. That is just sad.

I have preached for along time now that we need to prepare a common defense against Alien Greys. I just want to ask some of these people that don't believe in our cause---->If Alien Greys were killed off today, would you miss them?

Take a stand against the enemies of Earth. This is our final hour if we don't do something to stop the threat against humanity.

Peace

The Grey's aren't the enemies.There are two sides to every species.Try not to be so paranoid.Not everything non-human is out to get you.