Dutch cartoonist arrested on suspicion of violating hate speech laws

I don't get the unrelenting Dutch Support for Theo Van Gogh.

I mean here's a guy who really was just a talentless hack of a film maker, all he was renowned for was denouncing every organised religion and making controversial statements. That's how he made a name for himself, writing hostile columns in newspapers and publically denouncing Islam.

First he attacked Jews with his openly anti-Semitic statements and criticised them for quote, "Being too concerned and obsessed with the Holocaust."
Yeah only 6 million dead guys move the hell on, forget about your friggin' parents and grandparents you lost and get over it cry-babies!

Then he turns to Islam where he just made endless critiques and cheap Right-Wing propaganda films disguised as "documentaries", and referred to all Muslims as "Goatf**kers".

And the Dutch wonder why someone puts a bullet in his head?
What did you guys expect honestly, for this man to mock people and for them to sit still and bear it?

How about if I came into Holland and starting making "documentaries" extremely critical of the Dutch people and their history and then I hid behind Freedom of Speech to defend myself from critics and those that say I'm pushing the envelope?

Sheesh, yes Freedom of Speech should be guaranteed, BUT it should not turn into a vehicle for bigoted, nimrods out there to vilify other religions or cultures.

The man was a friggin' nut as far as I'm concerned. Clinically Insane.

I don't get why people bring him up like he was the "Patron Saint of Democracy and Freedom", he wanted Holland to turn into a model Nazi Germany; no immigration, no freedom to other religions, and widespread propaganda.
And somebody shoots and stabs him.

Honestly, I can't blame them. I have no patience or respect for those cowards out there who openly preach hate and prejudice and then go and hide behind a thin piece of paper.

Instead the Dutch praise this man for attacking discriminating against other religions?
Wtf?

reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira


Where is Van Gogh coming from all of the sudden?

I totally disagree with your put a bullet in your head thing. There is never reason to put someone down for his or hers believes. Never.

You can make your own stupid movies or your own stupid bitching articles yes, but you don’t resort to violence. I can not see how that step can be made by a sane person.

Are you good with murder?

reply to post by D.Wolf


I never said he should have died, I said I can understand why he did.
Honestly, this man was seriously troubled. Have a look at his history and background, this is his claim to fame:
Attacking other people's beliefs. He doesn't deserve the title of a film-maker or writer, he was a bullsh*t artist and professional propagandist.

He smoked coc aine, drank heavily and generally did not create or write anything of serious film merit.

With some of the sh*t he's spouted over his long "career" of hatred, I wouldn't be surprised if he had an undiagnosed mental illness too:

"I suspect that Ms. Gans gets wet dreams about being #ed by Dr Mengele."

"Today they're only burning diabetic Jews".

en.wikipedia.org...(film_director)

It's about censors and sensibility.
He has a right to express his views, yes, he DOES NOT have a right to continually and immaturely abuse Freedom of Speech to openly insult other religions.
He was responsible for his own death. All that criticism and negativity he brought on himself with his half-assed "documentaries".

[edit on 24/5/08 by The Godfather of Conspira]

reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira


Oh yes I can understand too why he died. There was a disturbed insane person resulting to violence where there should have been discussion. Van gogh indeed attracted that and I take he knew that to. Nonetheless he continued to claim his right on free speech in stead of taking a step back. That could as you bluntly state, fall under the category mentally insane, but name calling is easy so one could with the same effort call him a hero, a brave man, a champion and now that he died the way he did, a legend.

For what he was and what he has become you can have your opinion. However this threat does not concern van Gogh in the least. So where does he fit in the discussion?

Originally posted by D.Wolf
reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira

 

For what he was and what he has become you can have your opinion. However this threat does not concern van Gogh in the least. So where does he fit in the discussion?

He does'nt, save for the fact he als commentend on the oversensitive religious factions that we have in this world. I don't know where The Godfather of Conspira got the idea that van Gogh was a Nazi, but he critisized the extreme muslims, who cite the koran in throwing gay's headfirst from buildings and calling every dutch not muslim 'pigs' en being intolerant. And the fact that he was murdered proves he was friggin' right.

In Holland (how it should work anyho) it works like this:

if you feel offended by something, you either put it up for discussion, or you file a complaint and let the judge decide. You do not go around killing someone that says something you do not like.

That is what guys like Nekschot and Van Gogh protested against: the intolarance of certain groups in society. there is nothing wrong with the islam itself, but with the extremists, and how in holland they use political correctness to impose their will. And against the political parties who turn their backs. They do ot and have never endorsed nazism in any way. That is a ridiculous thing to say.

reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira


Ah yes, the Godfather finally exposes his true colors.

And the Dutch wonder why someone puts a bullet in his head?
What did you guys expect honestly, for this man to mock people and for them to sit still and bear it?

That his right to freedom of speech be respected, that's is what people expected. With this attitude, when people can't take anymore and they start killing all the Muslims for their lack of respect for Western culture, will you say the same. Killing someone because you disagree with what they said is never the answer.

and here you go again

Honestly, I can't blame them. I have no patience or respect for those cowards out there who openly preach hate and prejudice and then go and hide behind a thin piece of paper.

I have no respect for someone who condones murder as you have just done. It is this kind of attitude from the Muslim world that is going to start WW III, and the Muslim world will not win, or even come close.

You can go to Holland, or any Western nation and make fun of the people. If your criticism is on target, chances are you will be respected, if your criticism is wrong, you will be ignored and ridiculed yourself. People in the West do not condone murdering someone because you don't like what they have to say.

reply to post by poet1b

That his right to freedom of speech be respected,

Well in your little rosey, sheltered world that might happen. But this is Earth, where people die everyday and sh*t happens, just be realistic for two seconds. Like Martin Luther before him, some folks just really don't take too well to certain beliefs.

I never condoned his killing BUT I do make a distinction between Freedom of Speech and pushing the envelope.

Insulting Muslims is one thing, like an odd remark or two, or an article; but making a friggin' career and living out of it is completely reprehensible.

I don't want to personally kill this man nor can I, but I can easily compute why he ended up dead with the views and beliefs he publically kept displaying.
Fine you hate Muslims, you wish they were gone from the Earth, just keep it to yourself sheesh. I hate Republicans, but I don't go and mash up every Republican I see.

This guy called himself a film-maker, an expressionist and he all could express and create was pure hatred.

Pffft.. "Talent" right there.

I have no respect for someone who condones murder as you have just done.

Not condoned, "understood". Hey you want to make a life out of bashing other religions go for it, just don't be surprised to walk into knife a few times in dark alley someplace.

People protect and cherish their beliefs more than anything, religion has created wars and disastrous amounts of destruction because people's beliefs were being offended; and the Dutch people see this guy dead and start pondering why?

Is it that hard to see? Some people need glasses out there...

t is this kind of attitude from the Muslim world that is going to start WW III, and the Muslim world will not win, or even come close.

Again with the paranoia and fear?
Are you taking your anti-depressants?

Just come back down to Earth seriously, there's not going to be some mass culture clash between Muslims and Christians, just chill. Relax.

It's exactly this kind of "fear-baiting" and widely speculative attitude that is responsible for the tensions between East and West.
The lack of knowledge and understanding combined with the physical separation leads to widespread misunderstanding and hatred, all because both sides don't know jack all and love to gossip bascially.

If only some realists talking some sense into both sides and made them see their getting hyped up over petty crap that could be solved with an arm wrestle or a game of scissors-paper-rock, not Federal Courts and Cruise Missiles.

Fear and consume, fear and consume... Name of the game the Government wants you all to play. Congrats on your membership

People in the West do not condone murdering someone because you don't like what they have to say.

LMAO. Best stuff I've heard from you yet, remember how I said go read a history book? I would really help make your arguments less like Swiss Cheese...

JFK?
Martin Luther King?
Ngo Dinh Diem?

*Ding**Ding* Bells chiming yet?

I guess they wound up dead because of "Muslim aggression" and their global domination agenda right?

Nah you Westerners your so tolerant, what have you ever done to deserve this?

reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira


All the nonsense in the world and your attempts to stereotype me do you absolutely no good in refuting that in your previous post you condoned murder. Now you wish that I get stabbed in an alley. You're a real humanitarian.

Just because you think someone has insulted you, that does not give you the right to kill that person. Violence begets violence, and that is exactly what is happening. Now here you are to egg the violence on.

reply to post by cappuccino

Well I LOVE the cheese and the wooden clogs are real comfortable for yard work... but you forgot to mention two other important things..

Red Light District in Amsterdam
Ummm no... no comment

Bilderberg Club

Your Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands was involved

The 2006 meeting of the Bilderbegers took place June 8-10 at the Brookstreet Hotel, in Ottawa, Canada.

Some of this year's attendees were pictured on the front page of the Ottawa Citizen: from left to right, first row: David Rockefeller, founder of the Trilateral Commission and former chairman of the Chase Manhattan Bank; Frank McKenna, former Premier of New Brunswick and ex-ambassador to the U.S.; Gordon Nixon, President and CEO of the Royal Bank of Canada; second row: James Wolfensohn, former president of the World Bank; Richard Perle, assistant secretary of defence to U.S. President Reagan and advisor of present President Bush; Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands

www.michaeljournal.org...

And you worry about a little thing like "freedom of speech"



Remember Salman Rushdie?

Freedom of Speech comes with a price that many seem to forget... accountability
A well-known example is typified by the statement that free speech does not allow falsely shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre

Other limiting factorinclude those of libel and obscenity..

Sure you can SAY it or print it, but be prepared for the consequences of your actions... try walking into a bar in the south with only blacks and yelling out the N word... see where freedom of speech gets you then...

The cartoon is the same thing while we may think it funny, some will get their bombs ready and declare "Jihad"



[edit on 25-5-2008 by zorgon]

reply to post by Zorgon.


Hate to disappoint you but the red light district in Amsterdam is bound to be pretty much round up. What will be left of it is just for sightsee purpose I guess. The smart shops are also on the edge of being round up and I think the coffees shops will be next.

The wooden clogs are out for quite some time now. In my life I’ve only seen them on the stumbling feet of tourists, so yeah you love em. Good for you.

Bilderberg club, oh man them having some amazing places over here. Been to one of them last year and it was unbelievable. Sorry to hear you have lesser experiences with them.

About the jihad declaring. It is total bogus to fear and step back because someone or some group of people tend to resort to violence rather than take a deep breath count to ten and be civilised. That means maybe to discuss the matter or sue ones but for everything s/he’s has, or wave an arm and laugh about it. Whatever, but there should be no violence or threatening with it. That is a step down the ladder where there should be a step up towards standing way above someone who can not cope with his freedoms, pushing the envelope. Only then there will be respect to gain.

Don’t get me wrong, I am all for accountability in freedom of speech but this accountability is bound by law so when there is a law broken the fire shouter can and will be held accountable. As is the case now with the cartoonist.

And there you have it. A perfect example of how it should be done without resorting to down spiralling violence.

1, 2, 3.

(edit reply to zorgon not poet)


[edit on 25/5/08 by D.Wolf]

reply to post by D.Wolf


I think you are replying to Zorgon.

reply to post by zorgon


See Wolf's post.

You know, even if you were to walk into an all black bar and shout the N word and start talking trash, they might beat the tar out of you, and then again these days, they might just laugh at you for being ignorant.

You don't see black people threatening to kill Larry Flynt for racist cartoons in Hustler. Especially being that they make fun of all people and all racists, and that is the key.

Shouting fire in a crowded room can get people killed, and that is a whole different story.

reply to post by poet1b

You're a real humanitarian.

I don't pretend to be something I'm not.

Eg: "Oh I support Freedom of Speech/Worship/Expression but we should really ban Muslims from immigrating to the United States."

Pffft.. Look mate, you want to give up fine, just at least concede defeat instead dodging everything I say and replying with 2 lines of pure rhetorical garbage.
(I.e.Your just stereotyping me, in my idealist dream-world this would never happen,etc...)

I like debating with people who put the effort in to build a sold arguement against me, I respect that.
Not just: "I don't like what you say, and I'm gonna pretend I didn't read your post and reply with something that has absolutely no relevance to what you said."

Then stop talking to me if want to carry on a 6th Grade arguement.

Just because you think someone has insulted you, that does not give you the right to kill that person.

Your right it doesn't, but I'm being a REALIST here.
People will kill you in this world because they disagree with what you say. Americans have done it. Muslims have done it. Everyone has done it.

Van Gogh can express himself but with those views, he should have looked over his shoulder a bit more, I wouldn't feel safe in public if I was going around calling Muslims "Goatf**kers" in a country with a sizable Muslim majority.

You know, even if you were to walk into an all black bar and shout the N word and start talking trash, they might beat the tar out of you, and then again these days, they might just laugh at you for being ignorant.

EXACTLY MY POINT.

Would you feel safe walking down a street in South Central LA where everyone knows you hate black people and think of them as scum?

You don't like the heat, you move out of the kitchen. If Van Gogh loved America so much and saw it as the "bastion of Light in a darkening world" as he put it so ignorantly, he should have lived there.

Beside if you hate Muslims so much, why live in a country where Muslim immigrants make up 10% of the urban population?

[edit on 26/5/08 by The Godfather of Conspira]

reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira


Try this, Change

Eg: "Oh I support Freedom of Speech/Worship/Expression but we should really ban Muslims from immigrating to the United States."

To, "I support Freedom of Speech/Worship/Expression, and I don't want people living next door to me who do not respect Freedom of Speech/Worship/Expression, and I especially do not want people living next door to me who think they have the right to kill me or my loved ones if we criticize their religion or way of life". That, my my poor confused boy, is being realistic.

What is becoming more clear is that you are too much of a simpleton to understand my perspective of things.

Here is another realism for you. People will put up with this kind of bullying behavior, which is exactly how the Muslims are acting by threating people with death for being critical of them, for so long, and then you might find that they will find their barbaric roots, and wipe out the communities in their midst who are trying to bully the rest of society. Then what will your attitude be, will you still be condoning murder?

Originally posted by D.Wolf

Hate to disappoint you but the red light district in Amsterdam is bound to be pretty much round up.

Ahhhh for the return of the good ole days

Bilderberg club, oh man them having some amazing places over here.

I wonder if we are talking about the same thing here

Originally posted by cappuccino
if you feel offended by something, you either put it up for discussion, or you file a complaint and let the judge decide. You do not go around killing someone that says something you do not like.

Well neither do the Muslims... only the EXTREMISTS do this and extremists are not race or religion specific

Remember the IRA?

Unfortunately there are a LOT of extremists in the world today... so if you insist on exercising your freedom of speech in such a manner that you KNOW will incite some of these extremists... you should not be too surprised if they hunt you down...

its a small world these days... you can hop on a plane or put out a 'reward' very easily

[edit on 26-5-2008 by zorgon]

Most of the extremists these days are Muslims, which is a bad thing for Muslims who are not extremists, because the answer to these Muslim extremists is to hunt them down in order to protect free speech, and that means that there will be some collateral damage. If I was a Muslim, I would be thinking about whether or not the religion is worth putting myself and my family at risk, and I would be thinking about changing religions. I would be doing everything I could to distance myself and my family from the extremists.

reply to post by poet1b

What is becoming more clear is that you are too much of a simpleton to understand my perspective of things.

Hows this for perspective?

I post arguement...

You post.... nothing.
Maybe if you actually gave me an idea of what your perspective is I could see it, all I know know so far is that your some kind of political chameleon who supports every side of the spectrum as long as it suits his point.

And apart from inane ad hominem attacks like above, you haven't got nothing much to contribute.
Have you got anything else to say apart from that I'm a simpleton/terrorist/extremist/liberal-type person?

Okay cool, if were playing the name game here you're a:
Neo-Conservative, Ignorant, Xenophobic, Republican Chickenhawk,that's my take on you just to level with you here since you just can't help yourself from labelling everyone who disagrees with you.

Here is another realism for you.

Oh now he's a REALIST folks!

A Christian, Republican, Realist-Humanitarian who supports restrictive immigration and pre-emptive miltiary action?

Is that a joke?

People will put up with this kind of bullying behavior,

Beeeep! Oh I'm afraid that's another ignorant statement...
Would you like to try for double jepordy where the scores can really change?

Yes people will put up with stuff like that, but the person won't.
Hence why Van Gogh is dead. Just because nobody formally sent this guy a cease & desist letter and lodged a complaint with the Dutch Courts doesn't mean he should have kept pushing the envelope. People were evidently pissed off with his rhetoric.

This arguement has reached it's belated end, like a sloth clinging to a tree with it's three fingers, it's about to collapse.

You obviously haven't got much experience with Muslims or even ordinary people for that matter, you have it in your head were living in this idealist type "dream-world" where everyone is skipping down the streets holding hands and blowing kisses.

I'd love to come live where you do, must be real peaceful and utopian-like but sadly I'm AWAKE and I see a cesspool of corruption, hate and ignorance.

[edit on 26/5/08 by The Godfather of Conspira]

reply to post by stumason

Originally posted by stumason

Originally posted by InSanE1
Here is a sample of what's happening in Canada when it comes to free speech :

"Freedom of speech is an American concept, so I don't give it any value."
- Canadian Human Rights Commission (CHRC) investigator Dean Steacy.

Freedom of speech is a thing of the past.

Quite the contrary to whatever your CHRC chap says, the concept of Freedom of Speech is an English idea set in stone by the Bill of Rights, passed in 1689, from which almost every constitution and Common Law in the world descend.

Funny you should mention that. Just last night, someone on the radio was saying that Freedom of Speech was not originated by the US, but was an English concept. Then he said, it actually was present back in the days of the Romans.

reply to post by jsobecky


I could see early Rome making free speech one of its principle beliefs. The City that brought us our first republic was so far ahead of their time, it is incredible. The catholic church destroyed Roman civilization, and set manking backwards by almost a thousand years.

It would be ashamed if another Middle Eastern Religion caused another repeat of history.