What the heck is going on in the UK?

Two or three days ago we see this story:

MPs back creation of human-animal embryos

And today we have this:

Women win right to children without fathers

Seems to me the disintigration of traditional values and ethics is acclerating.

What's next? Anyone who wants a baby, and can afford it, can just go out and buy one? They can get the size, shape, color they want? What if they don't like it? Will they be able to trade, or return it?

Although I don't believe single parents of either gender, or two women, or two men are well equipped to effectively raise a well adjusted child, I support their legal right to do so. As long as half of the chromosomes come from a normal male and half come from a normal female in the normal way, unchanged. I'm concerned that it won't be long until any woman can become pregnant without a male sperm donor. Just buy a custom designed laboratory embryo cloned from who knows who or what.

This doesn't sit well with me.

reply to post by darkbluesky


So you don't think two women or two guys can raise a family? Then you're clearly bigoted.

Luckily for society what doesn't sit well with you sits well with most folks.

Originally posted by dave420
reply to post by darkbluesky

 

So you don't think two women or two guys can raise a family? Then you're clearly bigoted.

Please explain why you think that makes me a bigot.

I believe you have made an assumption regarding my views on homo-sexuals in general, when all I was commenting on was the psychological make up of a child raised by a single person or a same sex couple.

What are your thoughts regarding human-animal hybrid embryos?

reply to post by darkbluesky

Seems to me the disintigration of traditional values and ethics is acclerating.

Good., since traditional values is just doublespeak for cramming your values down my throat. No one is advocating the creation of animal human hyrbids. What they are advocating and can now do legally is create these hybrids in petri dishes ( a cluster of cells ) for research purposes so that perhaps we can make a better world by curing diseases. I know...what a horrible thing..the Christian right which is gaining a scary foothold in British politics would like you to believe that as a result of this bill we'll have cow people walking around..what rubbish.

Originally posted by dave420
reply to post by darkbluesky

 

So you don't think two women or two guys can raise a family? Then you're clearly bigoted.

Luckily for society what doesn't sit well with you sits well with most folks.

Actually it didn't sit well with 230 odd members of our house of parliment either and they voted against BOTH of these being passed... so the many are represented in parliment by their MPs and alot of them said no.

I would of voted no to both of the bills as well.

As to whats going on in the uk ? well a mass population control exercise coupled with the aimed and targetted destruction of the nuclear family as history has known it for two thousand years here in the UK.

So... not every one agrees with whats going on but our voices are drowned out sadly.

Damnit.. you mean they're not gunna create sexy cat girls like Jessica Alba in 'Dark Angel' or the puma sisters in Dominion (Tank Police). Scientists can be so selfish, wanting to create cures for delibiltating diseases.. I want my cat girl...

Now on a serious note. I totally agree with stem cell research, the breakthroughs are only a few years away now for such diseases as parkingsons and other motor neuro diseases...

And as for Gay/lesbian families bringing up kids, as long as they let the kid decide how he wants to be and don't force they're beliefs on him, good luck to them.


Peace...



Peace

reply to post by dave420


I think this action gives a lot of freedom to the same sex cuples by crushing the rights of the children to have a normal family. It is unnatural, it is against the evolution of any superior animal on Earth and against God himself. Prepare to bear the consequences! Involution, here we come.

I hereby doth challenge ye to further mankinds exploration of space and hostile planets with a body totally unsuited to the new environments!

No seriously now, I might well have my head stuck up in the clouds with delusions of inter-planetary collonisation driven by increasingly hostile economic and politcial circumstances back on earth, but I seriously doubt we'll make our presence known in the universe as the typical human being. After all, we are the result of natural evolution over many thousands of years... no, I hear your protests but if we were all made by the God religion can't decide upon in the blink of an eye why are there different rac- ...nevermind. Tit-for-tat gets us nothing but a large body-count and I want my kids to explore space!

Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that eventually we'll need to leave our pretty blue planet and if we as a species have failed to change we won't get very far. Since we're almost set to go, technologically speaking, it'll be considerably quicker if we tweak a gene here and there and along the way solve cancer and other minor nuisances.

reply to post by darkbluesky


This breakdown of the traditional family unit and the idea that anyone can be a parent stems from new labour and their PC brigade which is now truly sexist in that the rights of men are rarely considered when it comes to children and the creation of them.

I say that all men should refrain from becoming sperm donors until we have a level field when it comes to rights - let them try and make babies without sperm, and then see how much "women don't need men" as put forth by some of the loonier PC brigade.

It sometimes seems that the system is biassed against marriage and "traditional" couples, to the extent that you a person is better off unmarried under the taxation system.

I personally think that this is down to the "loony left" and is a knee jerk reaction to thatchers vision of a return to victorian family values - which of course was just as wrong, as the victorians saw the rise (and creation) of the middle classes which were damaging in the extreme to our society as a whole.

I am NOT advocating a return to the "serfs and lords" society, I am thinking about the extreme snobbery that the middle classes brought about, as well as the idea that was promulgated that the pursuit of wealth was a noble and worthy way to live and which is now destroying our societies, our planet and leading to endless war.

We also need to be clear that the research is NOT being done with the intent of producing human/monkey baby's or any other such nonsense, but is part of the science into stem cell research - something which may or may not be a bad thing.

But BEFORE we can decide if it's good or bad, we need to understand it.

You must understand that here in the UK the presiding regime - the Labour party, is taking a hammering in the polls (now 3rd popular party) and with this in mind there are 2 years left b4 the next general election and they a simply getting legislation passed b4 that happens.

Once it is passed then they have commercial rights to this technology and make a profit when they are voted out of office into nice comfy corporate jobs.

Which commercial rights are you referring to?

And let's face it, our corrupt system of government means that MPs don't need any of this to work as a consultant or an advisor to industry or commerce.
That's why cabinet jobs are so highly regarded.

If you have evidence to support your assertion regarding commercial rights, I'd be interested to read it.

reply to post by darkbluesky


You assume a kid raised by a same-sex couple will be psychologically impaired somehow. Which is an assumption not based on scientific research, but on your own opinion of same-sex couples. That, my friend, is bigotry. It's good that you "accept" it happening, but the fact still remains is your prejudice against homosexual folks is shining through.

My views on animal/human hybrids? Why not do it? We, as humans, should endeavour to research everything we can. If we drew the line at practices we might think terrible (say, animal testing), then our scientific understanding would still be in the early 1900s.

I wouldn't pin this on New Labour, or "loony lefties", but on the progression of civil rights in civilised society. As soon as we realise everyone's equal, and anyone's choices that don't negatively affect other folks are perfectly acceptable, then this discussion will be moot. The same arguments that are made against women being single mothers, were made against women voting. They were made against slaves being freed. "Oooh it's not right! It's political correctness gone mad!" It seems the only people who give a rat's ass about equality are those who understand the position of people who don't have it - either through empathy, or through being a sufferer themselves. It's natural for those who have the "equality" they want, say rich white Christian folks, to not see the need for equality, as they're happy as Larry. They'll fight to keep the status quo, because they're not wanting. They don't see what these injustices do to people.

reply to post by darkbluesky



I can tell you that my mom was raised by her biological male/female parents and I was raised by a single mom. I am WAY WAY WAY more psychologically sound than my mother. Your theory is flawed.

OK - I didn't intend this thread to be a discusion on same sex or single parenting. I erred by commenting on that aspect of the topic.

Feel free to continue to bash me for my antiquated notions regarding child rearing, but I'd still like to address genetic manipulation and the tinkering with the natural method of producing single species zygotes, blastocysts', embyos, etc.

I think it's wrong. Very few species in the natural world can cross breed. I'm sure this is for a very good reason. Now human scientists, in the name of whomever, have decided to create human/animal hybrid embryos.

Where are all the naturalists out there that feel that humanity is a plague on the planet. That nature is paramount, and we are guilty of destroying it with cars and air conditioning? Where is your outrage at scientists creating whatever new life form the can by mixing and matching chromosomes and DNA?

The consequences are unimaginable.

Originally posted by budski
I personally think that this is down to the "loony left" and is a knee jerk reaction to thatchers vision of a return to victorian family values - which of course was just as wrong, as the victorians saw the rise (and creation) of the middle classes which were damaging in the extreme to our society as a whole.

Yep. I think you hit the nail on the head there. "New" Labour is resorting to its older self, based on some very dubious idea's about state over family - amongst other things as we've seen recently.

People say that the problem with the UK is the immigrants. It most certainly isn't. The problem with the UK is the self-righteous morals of the politicians, the way the commons is run with party whips instead of individual voting and the totally unfair system of elected assembilies for Scotland, Wales and Ireland, but nothing for England.

As for the same sex parenting issue - if the child is bought up in a loving, caring environment then I see no problem with that. I'd much rather see a child bought up by parents who actually care about it instead of the current problems we see in the UK of hetrosexual couples who think nothing of shoving their kids out of the door with a few quid and letting them go and drink cheap booze in parks and rack up the crime figures so that they (the parents) can have some peace and quiet to watch the latest version of Popstars/Pop Idol/X Factor/Britains got (no) talent.



[edit on 21/0508/08 by neformore]

reply to post by dave420


Accusations of bigotry are so much easier than delving into the actual reasons for long standing traditions that created the foundation of western culture.

Im sure the NAMBLA adherent glares at you with eyes of disgust at your bigotry.

Has it ever crossed your mind that opponents of such acts of moral,ethical or flagrant admonishment of traditional norms;arent bigots?And just have this strange ability to see the world on a macro scale opposed to your meager subjective one....well has it ever crossed your mind?Because for rational people this is the conclusion.If societies werent completely dependent on tradition,dogma and commonalities;as opposed to flailing around in absolute moral ambiguity,then rational people would not object.

Though,if this antiquated culture has grown tired,and is to be replaced with one where deviancy is without judgment and malignancy now a relativity.Be aware.There are those still holding on to those morals and ethics,the albatross that keeps those gun toting right wingers from putting an end to the 'red menace',the christian zealots ohh so quite for centuries waiting to start up another crusade... and then those whom have no qualms wiping out the
progenitors of the ideology which brought this hell.Right now tempered by the morals and ethics,which YOU would see destroyed.

I thought this thread was going to be about the UK's crazy new 1984ish surveillance...I think that's where I want to know "what the heck is going on"...makes the Patriot Act look like the Constitution when you look at the UK's proposed surveillance programs.

Well, as much as a child deserves a father, in some cases a father just isn't worthy of kid. Why do people enter relationships and leave if they can't bring up a kid?

Surely if the father leaves he doesn't deserve to see anything of kid. However, in a certain part of my larger family the women are scum. Just meet guys, get pregnant and have nothing to do with the man and never work again for years and years.

It goes both ways. I think each case should be judged by courts.

reply to post by yellowcard


You should read 1984 before using it as a comparison. If you did, you'd see how inaccurate your assertion was.

So much for socialsm - the will of the people clearly isn't being heard