What do a billion Muslims really think?

reply to post by poet1b

It is not enough to say that honor killings are not approved by the community, the Muslim community needs to take action to start publicly condemning honor killings. By not publicly condemning these honor killings, the Muslim commmunity is encouraging it, as well as the liberal western community that refuses to do anything to stop this barbaric act.

Sigh, okay look you keep endlessly dragging up the point of 'Honour Killings' to justify there's something not right with Muslims at large.

First off, this has been a common part of life in the Middle East since before Muhammad's time, for at least 1,500 years.
There's a good chance this concept of "dishonouring the family's standing in their community by intermarrying" didn't even originate from Semitic tribes in the Middle East.

The Romans used to speak of woman who dishonoured their families by marrying foreign-born men who were denounced and mocked in public and then punished privately:

Patrician women were trained to self-restraint, obedience to their husbands or guardians, and to reserve “in speech, act and gaze.” Plutarch again: “great modesty was enjoined on them; all busy intermeddling forbidden, sobriety insisted on, and silence made habitual.” [Lives, 63] They were not to speak in public. [Livy 34.2.10; Valerius Maximus 3.8.3-8] When they went out (which was disapproved) they had to veil, covering their heads if not their faces. Men warded off dishonor by denouncing their daughters or wives in public, and then punishing them in private. [Veyne, 39]

www.suppressedhistories.net...

The fact you seem to overlook here is, habits are habits. Bad or good, when successive generations live with certain customs and ritual habits it's very hard to change.

This kind of treatment against women used to be a common practice among Semitic people, Jews, Muslims and Christians alike they all shared common roots and cultural practices:

Deuteronomy 22:28-29
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.

Deuteronomy 22:23-24
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

Exodus 21:22-25
When men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no harm follows, the one who hurt her shall be fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him;

Judges 19:22-29
Behold, here are my virgin daughter and his concubine; let me bring them out now. Ravish them and do with them what seems good to you; but against this man do not do so vile a thing."

Exodus[21:7-8]
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.

mypage.direct.ca...

I'm NOT trying to excuse honour killings here, don't accuse me of that as you always do, I don't support killing women who decide to marry a man from outside their neighbour, I'm just saying you have to look at this within context and understand where this practice comes from.

Your look at this issue from the perspective of uncultured, ordinary, Western person who's never spent much time overseas and has yet to experience foreign culture.
Of course this will seem barbaric and alien to you, the same way most Muslims find the lack of emphasis on family and religious duty strange in Western society.

People in the Middle East have lived this kind of harsh, tough and archaic lifestyle for thousands of years. To them it's an accepted part of life, and until all this foreign intrusion and scrutiny into their lifestyles and beliefs came about, they saw no reason to see otherwise.

What I'm saying is this: Democracy, Western values & ideals are not compatible with everyone.

You can see the proof of that in Iraq with America's feeble attempt to install a democractic system of government and law.

If you think you can pressure or bomb the ideals and lifestyles out of people who have lived like that since before time, then you need to travel more; some things are just too ingrained in people to be changed or removed from them.

Personally, I never have thought that the U.S. should have troops in Saudi Arabia, or stationed around the world for that matter. I am tired of paying for this giant military machine that only defends U.S. corporate interests at the expense of U.S. workers. U.S. originated International Corporations go around the world doing horrible things in the name of the U.S., making the rest of us look bad.

Well then why is it so hard to grasp why the Muslim world is pissed off at the West and why Islamic Fundamentalists keep vowing to attack you?

The US keeps giving the perfect justification to Osama and his brethren and every other Islamic Extremist group out there to continue spouting their reprehensible views and attacking innocent civilians, with their Foreign Policy.

Thus is it really so hard to believe that a some moderate Muslims out there would still support these violent acts because of the West's corrupt practices in their lands?

Iraq and Afghanistan have become bastions for Islamic extremists, the more bloodshed and destruction that goes on the more emblazoned the fanatic's cause is, the more they want to repay the favour to the West. It's almost like a recruiting drive for Islamic Fundamentalists, they now have the perfect excuse to rally recruits from all over the world to fight against the West.

I'm glad you've opened your eyes somewhat are starting to put yourself in THEIR SHOES, which too few people do; everyone seems to have it in their head that empathising=treason/terrorism.



[edit on 24/5/08 by The Godfather of Conspira]

reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira


Hey Godfather, are you on the take, paid to come here and throw the discussion out the window every chance some progress starts to be made?

You post a link to cultural customs From over TWO THOUSAND YEARS AGO [/B] and you expect to be taken seriously?

I have been overseas, And I live in one of the most multicultural cities in the world. I know plenty of people from the Middle East, I have studied the culture. I would think that by now, you would have figured out that I know what I am talking about.

These honor killings are the most barbaric practice on the planet. This is not a custom anyone should accept, and this feeble attempt of yours to justify this barbaric practice shows just how distorted your world view is. Honor killings is a brutal method by which Muslims succeed in spreading their religion, and it should not be tolerated. Extremely tough measures should be under taken in response to these honor killings, such as arresting all the members of the family, and their spiritual guide as well. When ever an honor killing is committed, if the family lives in an isolated Muslim community, a wide spread investigation should be conducted to make sure that others are not being threatened with death for considering adopting Western ways, or marrying outside of the family. Are teenage girls being married off against their will? Basically this activity should be investigated with similar tactics that are used to fight the mafia.

How about if we let the people of the world decided if they want democratic style governments rather than be ruled by ruthless regimes that you imply they prefer.

It seems to me, that what you want to do, is to aid the ruthless control freaks of the world and impede progress rather than have an honest discussion of the issues. You want to pretend that living under a brutal regime such as a religious state is a lifestyle choice. I beg to differ. These people live in these conditions because they are forced to live in these conditions by brutal tactics such as honor killings.

reply to post by poet1b


Okay since your post was 100% emotion and drivel and 0% fact, I seriously don't see any point in arguing with you because you dodge my points completely and cherry-pick these measly parts out of context to refute.

So I'll do likewise unto you chum.

How about if we let the people of the world decided if they want democratic style governments rather than be ruled by ruthless regimes that you imply they prefer.

That's thing thing you see your not giving them a choice. America wants to spread democracy to everyone and anyone, by force.

If democracy is truly a system of government for the people by the people, than the people alone decide they want it, not some tyrannical, Texan 6,000 miles away who's actually a puppet being played by a shadow government.
I don't recall the Iraqis being asked if they would like to live under a democractic government?

No instead America went right ahead and set one up, just like in Afghanistan, so later on when you pull out from this mess you'll have lapdogs in Iraq and Afghanistan who'll play by your rules and do what you tell them to, not because you give a sh*t about the welfare of the Iraqi people.

That's the problem with American Foreign Policy, it doesn't let other nations decide what's best, it decides for them.

I never imply people in the Middle East like living with little rights under repressive regimes, but they sure as hell don't want to walk, talk and act like model American citizens.
That's a great way to sow the seeds for more hatred and vengeance.

Who cares what a billion muslims think. As a Christian American we are at war with muslims. I don't care what they think. All of the ones in America should be shipped back over seas or at least quarrantined.

Originally posted by Christian Voice
Who cares what a billion muslims think. As a Christian American we are at war with muslims. I don't care what they think. All of the ones in America should be shipped back over seas or at least quarrantined.

You have absolutely no place in this world, you do realize that don't you? You are an archaic, hate driven person who uses the guise of "christianity" to cover for your lack of humanity. You are not a christian, any claim to be so is laughable. You really need to get out and see the world beyond your front steps.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by projectvxn

 

And a lot of Muslims are on here saying the U.S. did this or the U.S. did that, or Israel did this, you get my drift.

Personally, I never have thought that the U.S. should have troops in Saudi Arabia, or stationed around the world for that matter. I am tired of paying for this giant military machine that only defends U.S. corporate interests at the expense of U.S. workers. U.S. originated International Corporations go around the world doing horrible things in the name of the U.S., making the rest of us look bad. I recognize this, and a great many Americans do, I believe a majority at this point in time, after the GW admin., but the sad fact is that the people doing this stuff have been succeeding in fooling too many of the people for too long.

At the same time, the jihadists in the Muslim world are equally as bad, and then you throw in these honor killings, Wow is all I can say.

Maybe you can add to this side of the reality of the situation?

Personally, there are many modern Arabs and Muslims out there that don't do the whole honor killing thing, or the jihadi thing, but for those that do I have only one thing to say, with a poor world image(I dare say worse than ours) why not just outright outlaw this sort of thing? The no basis for it in the Quran as far as honor killing goes, and it just makes that part of the world look like the medieval hell hole many in the west rightfully think it is.

On the other hand I'm not for painting a broad picture. We can't complain them into changing their society either...I wish I could add a solution to the problem in this thread, but as progressive as I may be I don't have those answers. This is all new to me too. And just as horrific.

Originally posted by Christian Voice
Who cares what a billion muslims think. As a Christian American we are at war with muslims. I don't care what they think. All of the ones in America should be shipped back over seas or at least quarrantined.

Ahh yes. Let's take the Hitler route. Let's round them up put them all into train cars that will take them to their quarantine camps. Where our Christian God will do with them whatever he pleases. Who cares what they think, they're not human, they just target practice for Americas Holy Troops.

reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira


And once again you post 100% lies. I did post a fact, your link was IN FACT, about Roman culture from over 2,000 years ago, which is ridiculous to compare to modern culture. You claim democracy was a bad thing, and then you do it here again.

America isn't trying to spread democracy by force, the evil dictators and religious oppressive governments are clinging to power through violence.

Do you remember the Iraqis asking to be ruled by a brutal dictator? This is pure drivel being advertised by the dictators of the world, and their appeasers like you.

And I sure don't want Middle Eastern people acting like Americans. That would be a shame.

Please, trying to break free from the tired out propaganda nonsense you constantly spout here, and engage your brain.

reply to post by projectvxn


I think recognizing these things is the first step forward. Maybe Muslims need to start thinking that it is ok for their children to choose their own religion?

reply to post by poet1b


I will tell you this though your posts are 100% pure comedy, your really good for a laugh you know.

Poetb1, the "Cyber-humanitarian" always looking out for the welfare of the oppressed and suffering throughout the world!!

Give me a break Cybersaint, I love it how Americans concern themselves with things that will never affect them or cross their paths. What a waste, if they only cared that much about the dictator and regime in their own backyard maybe then they wouldn't be so revered and hated across the world.

Get off this high moral perch you've placed yourself on and look the world through the eyes of a realist.

The Middle East is not going to change for your needs, American needs or anyone else's for that matter. Yeah, yeah go ahead mock me all you want I know you self-appointed PC watchdogs love to get into ethical rhetoric and make yourselves sound like Mother Theresa.

My reference to the Romans was this: if Muslims have been living in such a "violent, backward, evil" culture as you say, for 2,000 years, what makes you think at the drop of a hat their going to give up their beliefs and values of their generation and of their parent's generation to please America's foreign policy and wishes?

Why are you so NAIVE?
These brutal dictators and oppressive regimes they have been around since eternity in the Cradle of Civilisation.
The Pharaohs of Egypt, the Kings of Babylon, the Saracen warlords, the Persian Shahs, the Ottoman Dynasty...

People in the Middle East have been living under one dictator or another since the region became known as the Middle East essentially. This applies to modern times just as equally with Saddam and his Ba'ath Party, the Shah of Iran, the King of Jordan, the Saud Dynasty in Saudi Arabia, the warlords of Afghanistan, the King of Morocco, and so on and so forth.

It's in their blood; this kind of lifestyle, these things are almost natural to them.

Please read a book or two or something to understand where this comes from because all you can seem to bring up is "Oh look they kill their women, they live in oppressive regimes, their nutjobs, this has to end!".

WELL THANKS for stating the obvious professor do you want waste any more breath?

The real underlying issue here is WHY? Why do they live like this and how can we educate ourselves and understand their viewpoint and culture?
The how, what and where are just scenery for nimrods such as yourself who only look skin-deep and see strange, different looking people and violent cultures.

I don't, I see people living as the products of their environment and history.

Stop shoving your nose into other people's backyards unless you want them to do the same to you...

You complain about Muslims trying to impose Sharia Law in the West? Well then....
The West should stop trying to impose it's laws and values on the East.

Do you remember the Iraqis asking to be ruled by a brutal dictator?

No I don't because the CIA put him power:
www.hartford-hwp.com...
www.representativepress.org...

Still more education needed I'm afraid.

And I sure don't want Middle Eastern people acting like Americans.

Good. They don't want to become the product of American influence and pressure on their people and land either.

Do you want Muslim nations all around the world demand the West changes it's lifestyles and values and ideals?

Why is it acceptable for America to dictate to others how to live, but not vice versa?
Oh because the West is so much righteous and civilised!
We live under democracies and have rights.
Rigged elections, erosion of liberties, constitutional rights no longer constitutional, legalised torture and indefinite detention, illegal wars, government intrusion into every facet of our lives, widespread government-sponsored propaganda and fog of ambiguity about what your government actually stands for.

Your just as corrupt and morally reprehensible as anyone, but you like many other people out there have enclosed yourself within a little "bubble", in which you can't see further than your own two feet and have no knowledge of anything but your own backyard. Everything is spoon fed to you by those in power.

Hmmm... and of course they're going to try and take advantage of their little bubbleheads everywhere, nooo, governments always act in the best interests of their people, they love you!

"And when Alexander saw the breadth of his domain and power, he wept for there were no more worlds and people to conquer."

Education = Key to Enlightenment and Truth
Make use of it please.

[edit on 24/5/08 by The Godfather of Conspira]

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by projectvxn

 

I think recognizing these things is the first step forward. Maybe Muslims need to start thinking that it is ok for their children to choose their own religion?

Or at least allowing openness of new ideas. But that has to come from government first in many cases especially in the middle east. Families will have to decide for themselves, we can't tell them what to do, but we can open up a path of choices by making them aware that there are choices. I think that Bush has proven that bombing them into democracy is not the way to go. And before that bombing them into communism wasn't the way to go. We need to first try to understand their issues, understand where we fit into this, stop supporting tyrannical regimes around the world, and stop trying to force people to run before they can walk with respect to how we introduce our brand of democracy into cultures that have never had it in the first place.

You can't fight a war of ideology at the end of a gun barrel. The more the military conflicts escalate the worse things are going to get. If we're not careful, we could very well cause World War 3. I firmly believe that right now, arrogance is not the best way to handle this, our military strength can only do so much good before it inevitably becomes a problem.

So what do we do? We have to recognize and address all of the problems we see in their society as making them dysfunctional, and we have to recognize how we fit into that as well, and how our policies may invariably hurt the Muslim world. There are a billion of them, and their voices do count, and how we deal with them will determine our own level of civility. How does one judge a superior ideology? By action or words?

[edit on 24-5-2008 by projectvxn]

reply to post by Rook1545


Oh cry me a freakin river. When the muslims get rounded up and shipped back, you can go with them. No room for traitors here.

Originally posted by Christian Voice
reply to post by Rook1545

 

Oh cry me a freakin river. When the muslims get rounded up and shipped back, you can go with them. No room for traitors here.

Yes, yes, we know Jesus was actually rambo on a crusade to kill all muslims....Give it a rest.

reply to post by Christian Voice

Oh cry me a freakin river. When the muslims get rounded up and shipped back, you can go with them. No room for traitors here.

Heil fellow Brownshirt!

Du bist ein Aryan?

I think your on the wrong forum, try [hate-site-nolink]

reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira


Whoa, do you ever read what you post?

My reference to the Romans was this: if Muslims have been living in such a "violent, backward, evil" culture as you say, for 2,000 years, what makes you think at the drop of a hat their going to give up their beliefs and values of their generation and of their parent's generation to please America's foreign policy and wishes?

If this is true, then why would we ever let these people into our country and into our communities. "Here is your new neighbor. He might want to kill you because you don't worship God in the same way that he Worships God, but we are hoping he is a moderate." [Add Jack Nicholson delivery]

If you were paying attention to what I am say, you would realize that my point is that people in the West need to know they can trust the people they allow into their nations and into their communities. You are on here trying to stand up for Muslims, when what you have now said, is that Western nations should not allow Muslims into their communities until they prove they can adapt to modern civilization. I think you have just provided the very core definition of liberal elitism.

Oh, I understand why they do the things they do, it isn't all that hard to understand. What I don't understand is why you want to pretend there is nothing wrong with these barbaric practices. Just because it is part of the Culture, doesn't change the fact that it is wrong.

Personally, I am tired of the U.S. sending troops all over the world to protect International Corporations. I have said this many times, but I guess your weren't paying attention, you were too busy writing propaganda nonsense.

In the meantime, in the name of national security and the general welfare, I think our government, the U.S. government, has a responsibility to prevent people from immigrating to the U.S. if they feel they have the right to kill people whose opinions disagree with their own. I would say the same is true for all nations.

reply to post by projectvxn


I think the biggest problem is that our foreign policy is more directed to benefit International Corporations rather than bring peace to the world or respect to the U.S.. Our evil people at the top get together with their evil people at the top, and we all lose.

Look at the insanity of our immigration policies. I think most people see that the people at the top want the people in the lower classes to fight among themselves. The IC's want to flame the fan of radicalism. It all works in their favor.

Originally posted by Christian Voice
reply to post by Rook1545

 

Oh cry me a freakin river. When the muslims get rounded up and shipped back, you can go with them. No room for traitors here.

I guess it is a good thing I am not american then huh? Like I said, you have no place in a civilized world. I guess if anything YOU would be the traitor. I see alot of people on here touting the Bill of Rights and Contitutional amendments, hopefully you are not one of them, you know, since you really don't believe in them. To me that makes you a traitor. Maybe you should get out there and start the round up yourself. Let's see what your fellow citizens and law enforcement think...see how many of them agree with you... or better yet, sign your name, grab your gun and sand cammo and go on over there and tell them directly what you think of them.

reply to post by poet1b


The funny thing is, the ones that are freely allowed to enter the US (Saudi Arabians), are the worst of the worst. The ones that just want a normal life; the Lebanese, Syrians, Iraqis (they are actually really good, the ones that want out are radicals, the radicals want to stay and live the Jihad lifestyle), are just tired of the violence at home and want a new start. The problem is that because they come from those countries they get raked over the coals. Yet the Saudis, who have the worst Human Rights record in the world can come and go since they are friendly with the government

reply to post by Rook1545


Good point, I agree. The Saudi's are the most radical, and given the freest reign. I don't buy this claim that Muslims can not live in peace with Westerner's, that Muslims can not live with representative government, anymore than they can not live with indoor plumbing.

I emphasize the honor killings because I think this is the core issue. It is pure competition on the most basic form. Control breeding, and you can take over a society. This is the main way Islam has spread.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by projectvxn

 

I think the biggest problem is that our foreign policy is more directed to benefit International Corporations rather than bring peace to the world or respect to the U.S.. Our evil people at the top get together with their evil people at the top, and we all lose.

Look at the insanity of our immigration policies. I think most people see that the people at the top want the people in the lower classes to fight among themselves. The IC's want to flame the fan of radicalism. It all works in their favor.

And that right there is the real root cause. Predatory corporations have been making life miserable for everyone, including us, but since they bear the American flag they blame us. And hence terrorism. Blackwater USA is a prime example of US corporations committing crimes in the name of American interests, we give immunity from prosecution, and because everybody is protecting their pocket book, it is us, the American citizen, that not only have to foot the bill, but send our loved ones to fight for their money, and it is us that have to deal with the terrorist attacks that are caused by this very example of economic and militaristic(para-militaristic if you will) exploitation. And instead of seeing this problem and fixing it, we say America can do no wrong, and march ourselves literally and figuratively forward. In our crusade to end Islamic terrorism, we have done little more than just continue to fan it's flames. What a shame, and what a missed opportunity.

[edit on 24-5-2008 by projectvxn]